BGleas

Two things I hate most in youth basketball are when you're allowed to press and when you're allowed to play zone. Neither teach kids how to actually play basketball.

They could, but I certainly wouldn't favor them against any of those teams. I could see them losing in 6 or 7 though, which I also think for a young team is a success.

Absolutely! I would deem it a huge success for a young Pacers squad to win two games in the playoffs against either of those teams, especially if it was in the 2nd round, meaning they won a series first.

Just wanted to chime in and say I enjoyed that final sequence last night . For real though, I'm still pretty stunned at how VO is playing. He's at an elite level right now. I always thought he could be good, but never thought this good. The Pacers are tough, I'd suspect as a young, untested team though they'd probably win 2 in a 7-game playoff series with Boston or Cleveland.

Just saw the box score, looks like he had quite a night.

He led the NBA in assists per game last year at 11.2.

Interesting list from The Ringer. The ranked the top 25 players of the first 25ish games of the NBA season. VO and PG both made the list, but interesting regarding where they're ranked and who's ranked higher... https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/12/8/16749624/nba-top-25-nba-player-rankings

Add to it that the Pacers VO is not the VO the Thunder had or would have had. Vic is a terrible fit next to Westbrook. It just didn't work. So it probably really is a win-win.

It just popped in my head out of nowhere... And because Brad Stevens has been known to turnaround a career or two.

Agree. You put Cody with the right franchise and the right coach, he could be a really effective player. He's not going to be a star, but he could be a really strong, effective player on a winning team. Obviously everyone looks good in Golden State, but I'd love to see how good Cody could be if you put him in Zaza Pauchulia's spot with the Warriors. Imagine Cody running the court with those guys and running pick and rolls with Durant or Curry. But even places like Boston, San Antonio, Toronto, etc., he could be really good.

Been meaning to post in this thread about Zeller. Granted, I haven't seen a Hornets game this year, but seems odd to me that last season all the talk was about how efficient Zeller was and how Charlotte was a upper team in the East when he played and awful when he didn't. Then Charlotte goes and gets Dwight Howard who take minutes from Zeller, and while I think they mostly play Kaminsky at the 4, he's also taking some minutes from Zeller, and of course Charlotte is awful. In Howard's defense his numbers are good (15 & 12 with a 17 PER), but I'd guess he has changed the dynamic of that team to where it's changed the way they play. I recall last year Zeller being great in the pick and roll with Kemba and really good defensively as well. While Zeller certainly doesn't jump off the screen or stat sheet, the analytics loved him last year, but seems he's fallen out of favor a bit in Charlotte.

First time I've heard that point from you in our discussion today. I wasn't referencing who got the better end of the deal whatsoever. I was responding the 5fouls question about the All-Star Game, which has nothing to do with the trade. Just a fact that it's easier to make the All-Star Team from the East.

It might be that list. I wasn't referencing it as the end all/be all of player rankings, just saying according to many the West has a majority of the better players, and we know historically the All-Star Team is selected largely off perception. One thing that could help PG is that Kawai hasn't played a game yet, but check out the list of forwards he's competing with below: Kevin Durant Draymond Green Blake Griffin Karl Anthony Townes Paul Milsap Anthony Davis Andrew Wiggins LaMarcus Aldridge Jimmy Butler

Well, it kind of does. I believe according to ESPN's list at the beginning of the season something like 13 or 14 of the top 15 players (according the their rankings) were in the West. Only 12 make the All-Star Team and the NBA does get specific about positions (though I think they may have removed the C position, not sure).

Haha, well played :). No, just saying there is much more competition for the All-Star roster in the West.

The All-Star game has very little to do with conference head-to-head. There are more "stars" in the West to compete with.

Have to think he's going to get a shot with the Lakers at some point soon. What's not to like about a 6'11" guy that can dribble, shoot from deep, finish at the rim, rebound, etc. Obviously needs work on defense, but he's a very skilled big that fits into today's NBA game really well.

Vic, because he's playing well and partly due to just sheer lack of competition.

Would love to have OG on this IU team, but yes very happy for how he’s progressing in Toronto. The guy I wonder about is Bryant. He seems to be doing well for the Lakers G-League team when he’s down there and has been on the NBA roster as well, but I wonder if a year with Archie (if he had bought in fully) forcing him to play defense, play more in the paint (though still allowing him to shoot from deep), and just holding him accountable would have propelled him into a 1st round pick.

He's not younger by much. He's in the same generation as Kyrie, Embid, Simmons, Greek Freak, Porzingas, etc. Remember, even Kyrie is still just 24. He's definitely younger than the Raptors key guys and the Wizards. I'll admit, I need to watch Turner more, and I will, but at this point I don't see him as that super-star level guy that's a go-guy on a legit contending team.

I've been wrong before, as indicated by my position on the trade at the time (though it still could play out differently), but IMO as of now and taking things like health out of the equation, when looking at the East post-LeBron that core is clearly behind the Celtics and Sixers, and most likely the Bucks and at least for a few years the Wizards and Raptors. Even the Knicks if they can make good moves going forward to add to Porzingas. I kind of see this Pacers young core similar to the Hawks the last 8 or so years with Horford, Teague, etc. Really good/solid regular season team, but pretty much a 2nd round and out team when it comes to the playoffs. Again, I could be wrong of course, just how I see it right now. I think Vic, Sabonis and Turner are really good young players, but I don't see super-star in any of them. Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, and maybe even Knicks already have that player on their rosters (taking health out of it), and you need that super-star to really advance deep in the playoffs.

It's not really a fair comparison to compare Vic's stats this year to PG's. A more fair look would be comparing Vic last year to PG this year (because playing with a player as ball dominant as Westbrook skews things) or compare PG last year to Vic this year (again the Westbrook factor). On the Pacers/Vic, I have to admit I'm really surprised at how they are/seem to be playing. I only say "seem" because I haven't had the chance to see one of their games yet. I was definitely one that thought they made a bad deal, or at least had other more attractive deals. I thought the better play would be stockpile draft picks and acquire more team friendly deals and flexibility. The beauty of how this all appears to be playing out (you knew I was going to bring it back to Boston!) is that the Pacers got some good young pieces that are excelling, and as a Celtics fan while I thought the Pacers should have taken the Bradley, Crowder, picks deal (if it was even really on the table), I didn't want PG and am happy with Kyrie. For the Pacers, they'd have Bradley who is solid but unspectacular and needs to be paid, Crowder while a good role player and a good contract isn't a game-changer, and now that Brooklyn pick everyone coveted is looking more like a 7-10 pick (I'm telling you, Danny Ainge is a genius!). In hindsight, that deal probably would have backfired in Indy, and potentially Boston too if PG left. Bringing it back to the Pacers fully, I'm pretty shocked at how well Vic is doing. Don't get me wrong, I loved him at IU and thought he was a good NBA player in the right situation (3rd/4th guy on a good team), I'm pretty shocked at how well and efficient he's playing in this primary role and that they're actually winning. It's still really early though, and there's a long season to go, so we'll see if he can maintain, but as of now if you're a Pacers fan you have to be pretty happy with how things are playing out, and yes it appears they made the right deal. My only question about the deal now is what is the ceiling really for this group? The young guys will continue to improve, but I'm not sure that along makes this group a real contender down the road for much more than maybe the second round. They will need to find a way to creatively add more impact pieces to this core, but the good new is that there seems to be a good, young core to begin with, no all teams have that.

Right! I gotta say, as a Celtics fan that never really cared for Kyrie, I've been blown away. He has been absolutely fantastic. This team is way more talented and better constructed than last year's team, and I can only imagine how good they'd be if Hayward hadn't gotten hurt. I still don't think they'd win a title, GS is just too good, but with Hayward I think they're the best team in the East. Without him, I still think LeBron will figure things out and be too tough to beat in a series. But, these Celtics are good. Kyrie is a legit star, playing defense, distributing, being a true leader to the young guys, and has formed a really nice on-court chemistry with Horford. Jaylen Brown is turning into a star and Tatum is the real deal. It also doesn't hurt that Ainge and Stevens are two of the best in the business at what they do. There will still be bumps and they're obviously not going to keep this streak going forever, but I couldn't be more excited as a C's fan!

It's not a big market vs. small market thing, it's a star vs. non-star thing. I hate it as much as anyone, but the stars get the calls, it's just the way it is. LeBron can take 8 steps in a pirouette down the lane and ESPN is talking about his brilliance, then guys like Oladipo take one extra half step and it's a travel.

OKC locked in their future with this trade. I don’t think Russ resigns with OKC before the season without OKC going out and getting PG and Melo. I’m not saying I like their team, but showing Russ they’re not afraid to swing for the fences I believe is a big reason he resigned and didn’t at least entertain free agency/LA. Add to it that Vic was a terrible fit next to Russ, and it made sense for OKC. I’ll admit, I didn’t like the trade for Indy. I thought they should have gone for more flexibility (ie. First round picks and cap friendly deals). With that said, so far it’s looking really good for the Pacers, though it’s very early, I like how they look. Not sure what the ceiling is, but if Vic, Sabonis, Leaf and the big guy that’s out (can never remember his name) can develop as a core then they have a chance. I don’t think they’ll be better than Boston, Washington, Milwaukee and Philly over the next five years. But, if their core keeps it up, Indy might have free agents that want to join them.