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Inequality

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IU lacks a true, solid leader/point guard. X is better than we had last year, but l feel he continues to go way too fast at times as well as trying to take the team on his back. This was evident tonight. I agree with an earlier post that we all looked a bit “disinterested”. Penn St. definitely wanted it more than us. Phinisee is continuing to improve each game… Lastly, Galloway’s absence is greatly missed. He could be the “X” factor because of his toughness, gritty play and court awareness when he returns. 

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59 minutes ago, jojo123 said:

we desperately need to get the admin out of our fricking way! Get rid of all the political bulls hit at IU 

When I first read this, it seemed like a completely unrelated comment.  After reflecting on it a bit, I wonder If university policies have created the extremely soft loser culture that seems embedded at IU.  Certainly, IU has success in baseball, soccer, women's basketball and swimming, but it seems like the flagship men's basketball and football are just soft and it makes me wonder how much of that softness comes from university administration intent on creating safe spaces and words that don't hurt or offend anyone.  Leaders like Kevin Wilson and Bob Knight were shown the door because they were too hard on kids.  Maybe they were, but a part of me can't help wonder if the pendulum has swung too far the other direction.  Seems like IU has a lot of nice kids and some solid talent but I don't see the fire needed to overcome an opponent having a good day.  I just don't see a team unwilling to accept defeat.

Is Woodson being held back by university policies designed to coddle kids and create protective bubbles around students?  I don't know, but I see disturbing signs that students and athletes are being protected from the harsh realities of a difficult and imperfect world and as a result, don't handle adversity very well when they encounter it.  That was apparent vs. Wisconsin and it appears it showed up in the effort today.  I find it hard to believe that Penn State has more talent than IU.  The only thing I can come up with is that IU has shown a pattern of softness that gives other Big Ten teams confidence that they can beat IU if they stay after it and keep fighting.  They know eventually IU will fold, especially in the absence of a friendly home crowd.  I don't see that being easy to reverse, especially when IU's players live in a soft culture of pronouns, safe spaces and participation trophies.  I hope Woody can create a killer instinct, but I haven't seen that with an IU team in more than 20 years and I don't see it this season either, even in the wins.  I hope it changes and I hope it changes soon, but absent evidence of any real mental toughness, I've learned to temper my expectations.

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8 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Great point.  Looking at the box score, Stewart and Kopp played 60 combined minutes and contributed 7 total points.   That’s 60 minutes out of 300 total.  That’s way too big of a chunk of useless play.   Should not be tolerated by the staff.  Neither guy is athletic enough to do much else if they aren’t hitting jumpers.  

It’s worse. They played 60 out of 200 (not 300) minutes. Just can’t have two “scorers” play 30% of all the total available minutes and only score 7 points. It just can’t happen.  I posted during the game that I love Stewart’s stroke, and he plays decent defense, but he goes through long stretches without having any impact on the offense. 

I’d try starting Bates with either Stewart or Kopp being one of the early guys off the bench.  I don’t think Bates is necessarily ready but he seems to have the most potential to be a guy that can get his own shot/create especially if he is in with starters the D has to worry about, like TJD and Race, rather than just playing with the back-ups.

I get the love for Galloway and Leal, and think they will be good 4 year guys for the program, but they don’t have the same potential to be the “get your own shot”, 2 and 3 point threat, as Bates. Give Bates a shot with the starters as we can’t afford to continue starting two “catch and shoot” guys.

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We would be no where without TJD and I’m thrilled he stayed.  Early in the season I was impressed how he had improved by attacking the rim like he hated the rim rather than weakly flicking the ball towards the basket. It was great to see. Today he reverted to  several weak “flicks” all of which missed, in crunch time. We would be doomed without TJD but our All-American has to attack the rim at crunch time. 

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9 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

It’s worse. They played 60 out of 200 (not 300) minutes. Just can’t have two “scorers” play 30% of all the total available minutes and only score 7 points. It just can’t happen.  I posted during the game that I love Stewart’s stroke, and he plays decent defense, but he goes through long stretches without having any impact on the offense. 

I’d try starting Bates with either Stewart or Kopp being one of the early guys off the bench.  I don’t think Bates is necessarily ready but he seems to have the most potential to be a guy that can get his own shot/create especially if he is in with starters the D has to worry about, like TJD and Race, rather than just playing with the back-ups.

I get the love for Galloway and Leal, and think they will be good 4 year guys for the program, but they don’t have the same potential to be the “get your own shot”, 2 and 3 point threat, as Bates. Give Bates a shot with the starters as we can’t afford to continue starting two “catch and shoot” guys.

Awesome post. Sorry about the 300 minute thing. I knew better.  

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27 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

When I first read this, it seemed like a completely unrelated comment.  After reflecting on it a bit, I wonder If university policies have created the extremely soft loser culture that seems embedded at IU.  Certainly, IU has success in baseball, soccer, women's basketball and swimming, but it seems like the flagship men's basketball and football are just soft and it makes me wonder how much of that softness comes from university administration intent on creating safe spaces and words that don't hurt or offend anyone.  Leaders like Kevin Wilson and Bob Knight were shown the door because they were too hard on kids.  Maybe they were, but a part of me can't help wonder if the pendulum has swung too far the other direction.  Seems like IU has a lot of nice kids and some solid talent but I don't see the fire needed to overcome an opponent having a good day.  I just don't see a team unwilling to accept defeat.

Is Woodson being held back by university policies designed to coddle kids and create protective bubbles around students?  I don't know, but I see disturbing signs that students and athletes are being protected from the harsh realities of a difficult and imperfect world and as a result, don't handle adversity very well when they encounter it.  That was apparent vs. Wisconsin and it appears it showed up in the effort today.  I find it hard to believe that Penn State has more talent than IU.  The only thing I can come up with is that IU has shown a pattern of softness that gives other Big Ten teams confidence that they can beat IU if they stay after it and keep fighting.  They know eventually IU will fold, especially in the absence of a friendly home crowd.  I don't see that being easy to reverse, especially when IU's players live in a soft culture of pronouns, safe spaces and participation trophies.  I hope Woody can create a killer instinct, but I haven't seen that with an IU team in more than 20 years and I don't see it this season either, even in the wins.  I hope it changes and I hope it changes soon, but absent evidence of any real mental toughness, I've learned to temper my expectations.

Yes….and it’s ok to come out and say it. We’re definitely soft. Izzo’s practices are brutal after they lose…this is definitely a big reason why why their program throughout the past 2 decades hasn’t lost much. 

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https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/post-game-comments-mike-woodson-on-the-loss-at-penn-state/

Interesting comments from Woodson on the rebounding:

On the rebounding margin

WOODSON:  I point the finger right at Trayce.  Five rebounds in 34 minutes, that’s not good enough.  He’s got to rebound the basketball.  That’s his job.  His the biggest player we’ve got on our team.  He’s got to be a double-double guy and I’m going to make sure he knows that.

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One game. Not sure that the sky is falling. IMO, game was lost because we decided to play off shooters, for some reason. Almost pack line redux. 
 

Cannot judge anything by one game. Cannot judge staff and/or administration by one season. Talk about the university is making kids soft is nonsense. If anything, parents, handlers, hanger ins, AAU coaches all have had significantly more impact on these players than any ivory tower guy.

Agree with Scott. A loss brings out the worst in this collective board 

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7 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Talk about the university is making kids soft is nonsense. If anything, parents, handlers, hanger ins, AAU coaches all have had significantly more impact on these players than any ivory tower guy.

I'm gonna respectfully disagree with that.  All D1 players have parents, handlers, etc.  You think Purdue and MSU players don't have the same ability to be coddled while they are developing?    Purdue had a mama's boy guard and he couldn't cut it despite elite defensive athleticism.  Eventually, he transferred. 

Why is it that IU's players seem to be softer than a lot of their competition?  I can think of one major difference.

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1 hour ago, FKIM01 said:

When I first read this, it seemed like a completely unrelated comment.  After reflecting on it a bit, I wonder If university policies have created the extremely soft loser culture that seems embedded at IU.  Certainly, IU has success in baseball, soccer, women's basketball and swimming, but it seems like the flagship men's basketball and football are just soft and it makes me wonder how much of that softness comes from university administration intent on creating safe spaces and words that don't hurt or offend anyone.  Leaders like Kevin Wilson and Bob Knight were shown the door because they were too hard on kids.  Maybe they were, but a part of me can't help wonder if the pendulum has swung too far the other direction.  Seems like IU has a lot of nice kids and some solid talent but I don't see the fire needed to overcome an opponent having a good day.  I just don't see a team unwilling to accept defeat.

Is Woodson being held back by university policies designed to coddle kids and create protective bubbles around students?  I don't know, but I see disturbing signs that students and athletes are being protected from the harsh realities of a difficult and imperfect world and as a result, don't handle adversity very well when they encounter it.  That was apparent vs. Wisconsin and it appears it showed up in the effort today.  I find it hard to believe that Penn State has more talent than IU.  The only thing I can come up with is that IU has shown a pattern of softness that gives other Big Ten teams confidence that they can beat IU if they stay after it and keep fighting.  They know eventually IU will fold, especially in the absence of a friendly home crowd.  I don't see that being easy to reverse, especially when IU's players live in a soft culture of pronouns, safe spaces and participation trophies.  I hope Woody can create a killer instinct, but I haven't seen that with an IU team in more than 20 years and I don't see it this season either, even in the wins.  I hope it changes and I hope it changes soon, but absent evidence of any real mental toughness, I've learned to temper my expectations.

Do I think some kids are softer than other? Sure, it’s human nature. Guys like Sheehey and Yogi were bulldogs while our more recent recruits have overwhelmingly been “nice-guy” type players.  Do I think the IU administration has implemented safe space/participation trophy policies that make some of our teams,  but somehow not our other teams, uniquely soft? No.

You mention baseball, women’s basketball, swimming and soccer not being soft. I would argue that the football team the previous year, that was willing to run through a wall for Allen and played in a January Bowl, also was not soft. So somehow we should conclude that the administration created/forced a soft culture for the basketball team and this years football team but did not create that type of culture for last years football team or soccer team or women’s basketball team or swimming team or the baseball team? Whew…talk about the administration threading the needle!
Not to mention that Wisconsin was noted as a tough team we could not overcome which begs the question is the rough and tumble Madison Wisconsin administration really breeding tough minded kids that are uniquely shielded from participation trophy environments? I doubt it.

EDIT: I do think we have had “soft” basketball teams that did not play hard, especially during the Archie years, but I just don’t think it came from the administration.

Edited by IU878176
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2 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

Killer moment:

XJ drives into the lane with nowhere to go > PSU steals and hits an open 3
Stewart drives into the lane and dribbles the ball off his leg > PSU steals and hits an open 3

 

This...

I didn't get to watch the game live (watching it now) but was reading the board while I was out and read @tdhoosier's comment. Just came to that part of the game and that most certainly was the momentum shift...

Len Elmore said during that time, "sometimes it's not the number of turnovers, but when they happen." Dead on...

Sessoms and Dread just killed us...their timely shots killed any momentum we tried to mount...

Not much more to add that hasn't been said...

 

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3 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

Do I think some kids are softer than other? Sure, it’s human nature. Guys like Sheehey and Yogi were bulldogs while our more recent recruits have overwhelmingly been “nice-guy” type players.  Do I think the IU administration has implemented safe space/participation trophy policies that make some of our teams,  but somehow not our other teams, uniquely soft? No.

You mention baseball, women’s basketball, swimming and soccer not being soft. I would argue that the football team the previous year, that was willing to run through a wall for Allen and played in a January Bowl, also was not soft. So somehow we should conclude that the administration created/forced a soft culture for the basketball team and this years football team but did not create that type of culture for last years football team or soccer team or women’s basketball team or swimming team or the baseball team? Whew…talk about the administration threading the needle!
Not to mention that Wisconsin was noted as a tough team we could not overcome which begs the question is the rough and tumble Madison Wisconsin administration really breeding tough minded kids that are uniquely shielded from participation trophy environments? I doubt it.

I don't know...I really don't.  IU's men's basketball teams have been pretty soft for awhile now.  It's hard for me to believe it's solely the kind of kids IU is recruiting and it's equally hard for me to believe that a staff led by Woodson would cultivate such a soft team.  So what is the answer?  If Woody can crack and reverse that, there's plenty of talent on this team to win every home game and at least a few road games.

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1 minute ago, FKIM01 said:

I don't know...I really don't.  IU's men's basketball teams have been pretty soft for awhile now.  It's hard for me to believe it's solely the kind of kids IU is recruiting and it's equally hard for me to believe that a staff led by Woodson would cultivate such a soft team.  So what is the answer?  If Woody can crack and reverse that, there's plenty of talent on this team to win every home game and at least a few road games.

Yes, I’m also mystified.
 I wasn’t a fan of many aspects of Creans coaching but he at least had a number of teams that played tough/hard. I admired his first team because they had  virtually no chance, in nearly all of their games, but they played hard. Did we ever sit around saying Yogi/Cody/Hulls weren’t bringing it or were soft? On the other hand  I thought all 4 Archie years were a disaster.

Some of it comes from coaching and some comes from having alpha dog(s) on the team. Basketball teams have a small locker and one or two guys can really impact players attitudes and confidence. From what I read about Bates I hoped he could be  one of those guys. Maybe he will be.  
 

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14 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

 

Len Elmore said during that time, "sometimes it's not the number of turnovers, but when they happen." Dead on...

 

 

Yes, timing is crucial. In addition to the turnovers there was an important sequence late in the game where we had two consecutive possessions that consisted of Race taking and missing a three early in the clock and in the next possession TJD took and missed a 15-18 footer. Came up empty both times, neither shot should have been taken, and it was just a killer.  It just seems we have had numerous instances, over the past x years, when we fumble chances to take or extend a lead.

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To be clear, and if I may try and speak for those lashing out…

The pitch forks have been out for 20 years or better. Admin and staff and come and gone leaving nothing worthy of celebration for the fans that have sustained  the curse. 

As I’ve said before, each year the rope get shorter. Sure, there are quick over reactions and sometimes to a silly level. That’s just passionate fans caught up in the moment. If only we could get the recruits to hold such expectations. That’s the staffs job though.

If and when the crying stops is when the brand is officially dead.

@FKIM01 is spot on. Miles Brand and some ‘everyone gets a trophy’ professors and BOD murdered the program intentionally. They hated Knight and wanted to deemphasize the energy around the bball team. That’s been hashed out over and over. Dead horse.

The program is going to be better I think. There are a lot of pieces in place for that. Maybe we have expected to much to quickly with this staff?

I’m also hanging on to the fact that we have Matta. @Parakeet Jones having been to some home games may understand the value of Matta. The dude is full of energy and passion.

I like the team. I like the staff. Losing is part of it but I hate losing winnable games.

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2 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

I literally slept through the entire game.  It wasn't intentional but I got in a nice nap on a crappy winter day.  Sounds like my time was well spent.  I won't bother going back and watching.

They keep playing like today, you're going to be able to hibernate til after March.  Starting to look like I'll be planning my fishing trips during March.

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For several years now, IU’s bball players just seem content with losing. No one ever seems angry after a loss. None seem to care that they can’t beat Purdue. You’d think Rob would hate going back to Laffy, with no wins over PU. But no one gets in another players face for a bad play. I’ve never heard of veterans throwing the coaches out and having a players only meeting. They just don’t seem to care that much, regardless of the coaching staff. It’s bad when the fans care more than the players. 

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