Stewart and Kopp

[kyhoosier29]

40 minutes ago, Indykev said:

Appears for the most part the starting line up isnt very good together. We usually dont sub until after the first media timeout. 6 or 7 mins in.

I know most hate the lineup talk but those stats are pretty telling. Maybe we need to see if there’s something to it that could possibly increase our ceiling and floor. Bc as of now, we’re slightly better than a bubble team with potential to beat most on our best nights. Let’s see if we can close the gap a little. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Victobmyboy]

35 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Agreed…although motion is still run…especially at many mid major programs as I saw it when I lived in Murray and with OVC teams like Belmont where there is not a lot of dominant players to run PNR etc….it is just harder to teach because of AAU mentality and me personality of kids now days. It takes longer to master and now both coaches and kids don’t stay in a program long enough to learn it…except sometimes at these mid major programs. Scott is actually right though…you absolutely still have enough time to run it though. Heck Golden St runs a version of it still in the nba at times when they want to run sets and not iso. I agree offensive rebounds leave little time to run it after that…that is a perfect time to get a reversal and post or pick n roll. I think this article summed it up though. It’s just very hard to teach and kids that are used to having the ball in their hand all the time don’t trust giving it up and getting it back.

https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/clemson-146-s-brownell-on-why-the-motion-offense-is-declining-in-college-basketball/article_daaf6974-9720-5565-908a-5802f283832b.html

Funny thing is come tournament time…you see a lot of veteran mid major programs just out execute much more talented power 5 schools using variations of motion offenses because it’s very hard to prepare for and defend….only defense being taught is ball screen defense etc.

I agree on every point. I’m just pointing out the classic knight run one shooter off ten screens(exaggerating) classic motion won’t be used. Lots of motion concepts(tons of them) are still used. Woody will use some. He is building an offense that will be what kids want to play in. 

[02Hoosier]

2 hours ago, Victobmyboy said:

This isn’t true. This isn’t a true motion offense. Those take to long to develop. He ran 4-5 plays for Parker and he hit all but one. He ran a few more but Michigan adjusted. It’s actually funny when people start saying Parker and Kopp should move without the ball. They set up exactly where they are supposed to. They catch and shoot 3s at a very high percentage  clip. Problem is they are literally our best shooters. They get taken out of plays because they are the focus. They leave all our other “shooters” open. Wonder why? You won’t see anyone come off those two to double the post. Michigan went zone with Parker and Kopp out of the game too. Why? Because they are our only consistent shooters. Look at this. 
 

https://www.hoop-math.com/Indiana2022.php

Would you rather Parker and Kopp sit in the same spot for the majority of the possession or would you rather have them coming off screens on a regular basis? Serious question.

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, 02Hoosier said:

Would you rather Parker and Kopp sit in the same spot for the majority of the possession or would you rather have them coming off screens on a regular basis? Serious question.

I would rather see all 5 players in constant movement and move the ball by the pass than the dribble.

[hoosier_exotics]

1 hour ago, Indykev said:

Appears for the most part the starting line up isnt very good together. We usually dont sub until after the first media timeout. 6 or 7 mins in.

I'm not sure where to find Stewart or Kopps  +/- numbers. But,  I would be shocked if they aren't pretty bad. You can somewhat hide one defensive liability,  but not two.  The numbers are pretty telling

[IowaHoosierFan]

gonna disagree with you on this.  But that's ok.  I just think they can do more than just stand in the corner and do nothing for most of the game.  But that is my opinion and if you ask anyone, i don't know anything

[Victobmyboy]

2 hours ago, hoosier_exotics said:

I'm not sure where to find Stewart or Kopps  +/- numbers. But,  I would be shocked if they aren't pretty bad. You can somewhat hide one defensive liability,  but not two.  The numbers are pretty telling

You would be wrong. The problem with meme info like above isn’t telling us anything about the other teams substitutions/foul trouble etc. here’s the info. We just aren’t very good.

TJD:  O  +7.7, D +4.8, total +12.4

Race:  O:  +4.5, D + 4.1, total +8.6

Galloway:  O:  +0.5, D +3.5, total +4.0

Geronimo:  O:  +0.9, 😧 +2.8, total +3.6

Johnson:  O:  +0.4, 😧 +2.9, total +3.3

Leal:  O: -0.8, 😧 +4.1, total +3.3

Kopp:  O: +0.9, 😧 +2.1, total +3.1

Stewart:  O: +0.3, 😧 +2.4, total +2.7

Phin:  O: -2.1, 😧 +3.0, total +0.9

Bates:  O:  -2.0, 😧 +1.3, total -0.7

Durr:  O: -4.6, 😧 +2.0, total -2.6

Lander:  O: -5.0, 😧 +1.9, total -3.1

Edited January 25, 2022 by Victobmyboy

[Hoosier82]

5 hours ago, Victobmyboy said:

Reason they play together early is to hopefully open up the inside. Get the paint going first. Keeps the D honest early. Neither one need to prove they can shoot. Trey can’t…Phin can but he’s 29% so far. That’s why they start. Plus they play pretty good defense. 

That only works when both can move effectively without the ball and create their own shot. We have have are two guys standing around watching post feed attempts and not in a position to recieve the kick out (not that TJD or Race are all that interested in such). When Galloway comes in, he drives to the basket drawling defenders or they let him take open runners. Having Stewart and Kopp on the floor isn’t opening up anything down low thus far. 

[Victobmyboy]

9 minutes ago, Hoosier82 said:

That only works when both can move effectively without the ball and create their own shot. We have have are two guys standing around watching post feed attempts and not in a position to recieve the kick out (not that TJD or Race are all that interested in such). When Galloway comes in, he drives to the basket drawling defenders or they let him take open runners. Having Stewart and Kopp on the floor isn’t opening up anything down low thus far. 

I’ll let Woody know. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Victobmyboy

[btownqb]

8 hours ago, Hoosier82 said:

That only works when both can move effectively without the ball and create their own shot. We have have are two guys standing around watching post feed attempts and not in a position to recieve the kick out (not that TJD or Race are all that interested in such). When Galloway comes in, he drives to the basket drawling defenders or they let him take open runners. Having Stewart and Kopp on the floor isn’t opening up anything down low thus far. 

Race is shooting 10% better from 2 and TJD is shooting 9% better from 2, from last year. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by btownqb

[ledies22]

7 hours ago, Hoosier82 said:

That only works when both can move effectively without the ball and create their own shot. We have have are two guys standing around watching post feed attempts and not in a position to recieve the kick out (not that TJD or Race are all that interested in such). When Galloway comes in, he drives to the basket drawling defenders or they let him take open runners. Having Stewart and Kopp on the floor isn’t opening up anything down low thus far. 

i dont know what you're watching, but teams dont sag off of P Stew and Kopp which does open the lane more than not having them on the court. I dont know if you recall Romeo's year where everyone had a foot in the lane because we didnt have shooters on the floor.

[Victobmyboy]

7 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

i dont know what you're watching, but teams dont sag off of P Stew and Kopp which does open the lane more than not having them on the court. I dont know if you recall Romeo's year where everyone had a foot in the lane because we didnt have shooters on the floor.

With the athletes on the floor today it’s hard to get everything off of just screens. Good teams switch rather effectively. That’s why we see hand offs and dribble drive. Draw defenders is more effective than just screening 3-4 times to get a guy open. 

[HoosierDPU95]

12 hours ago, dgambill said:

Agreed…although motion is still run…especially at many mid major programs as I saw it when I lived in Murray and with OVC teams like Belmont where there is not a lot of dominant players to run PNR etc….it is just harder to teach because of AAU mentality and me personality of kids now days. It takes longer to master and now both coaches and kids don’t stay in a program long enough to learn it…except sometimes at these mid major programs. Scott is actually right though…you absolutely still have enough time to run it though. Heck Golden St runs a version of it still in the nba at times when they want to run sets and not iso. I agree offensive rebounds leave little time to run it after that…that is a perfect time to get a reversal and post or pick n roll. I think this article summed it up though. It’s just very hard to teach and kids that are used to having the ball in their hand all the time don’t trust giving it up and getting it back.

https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/clemson-146-s-brownell-on-why-the-motion-offense-is-declining-in-college-basketball/article_daaf6974-9720-5565-908a-5802f283832b.html

Funny thing is come tournament time…you see a lot of veteran mid major programs just out execute much more talented power 5 schools using variations of motion offenses because it’s very hard to prepare for and defend….only defense being taught is ball screen defense etc.

💯

Motion offense in basketball = Triple option in football.

In today's game, programs that run these do so because they have to overcome a lack of talent. As a result it is difficult to recruit more talent because kids with NBA aspirations don't want to play in those kinds of systems. I see our staff running a system that will be attractive to higher-level talent. We just don't currently have a full compliment of players to execute that offense at a high/elite level. I too have been frustrated with our offense at times this year but then think back to the offense Archie and company ran (I don't even know what to call that other than "offensive") and feel much better about the direction we're heading. 

[btownqb]

50 minutes ago, Victobmyboy said:

With the athletes on the floor today it’s hard to get everything off of just screens. Good teams switch rather effectively. That’s why we see hand offs and dribble drive. Draw defenders is more effective than just screening 3-4 times to get a guy open. 

Yes! 

[Victobmyboy]

12 hours ago, IU Scott said:

I would rather see all 5 players in constant movement and move the ball by the pass than the dribble.

You must not watch much basketball or comprehend it today. The true motion years are over. Knights motion was designed to not only be efficient but to make you work on defense. The 30 second shot clock with a 20 second reset has changed that. We went from symphony’s to speed metal. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Victobmyboy

[Victobmyboy]

1 hour ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

💯

Motion offense in basketball = Triple option in football.

In today's game, programs that run these do so because they have to overcome a lack of talent. As a result it is difficult to recruit more talent because kids with NBA aspirations don't want to play in those kinds of systems. I see our staff running a system that will be attractive to higher-level talent. We just don't currently have a full compliment of players to execute that offense at a high/elite level. I too have been frustrated with our offense at times this year but then think back to the offense Archie and company ran (I don't even know what to call that other than "offensive") and feel much better about the direction we're heading. 

I think Archie wanted to run a more modern offense he just didn’t get the right guys so he caved to try and win. If his guys would’ve hit their free throws he would still be here a few more years. Think about that one.  Probably a 20 win bubble team every other year driving us crazy. 

[Victobmyboy]

Read this close. It states why you can’t go by just some Twitter meme. 
 

https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/iu-basketball-mike-woodson-says-he-has-no-plans-to-change-the-starting-five/

[Euroclydon]

20 hours ago, 13th&Jackson said:

I'd rather see Geronimo start in Kopp's place rather than Galloway. He's a better 3 pt shooter (33%, close to Kopp's 37%) and his scoring and rebounding per minutes played is better than either Kopp or Galloway. 

Not opposed to trying it but with JG starting along with TJD and Race there would be no size other than Durr coming off the bench. I like JG coming in for Race or TJD so you constantly have two guys who can rebound out of their area.

[Hoosier82]

10 hours ago, btownqb said:

Race is shooting 10% better from 2 and TJD is shooting 9% better from 2, from last year. 

Yea guys get better with experience. If you’re crediting Miller Kopp standing in the corner “drawing defenders” while Stewart does the same for their improved FG%, I’m not going to argue with you…it’s subjective and correlation does not equal causation.
There’s a reason Kopp’s minutes have dropped the last two games and it’s not because the starting unit has been effective. The numbers clearly show how ineffective they are and the reason is obvious. I’d be willing to bet TJD and Race’s production increases when both aren’t on the floor with them. Having Stew and Kopp on the floor at the same time does not work. Keeping one on the floor and bringing in Galloway or Geronimo produces better results so why continue to fight it?

[btownqb]

Just now, Hoosier82 said:

Yea guys get better with experience. If you’re crediting Miller Kopp standing in the corner “drawing defenders” while Stewart does the same for their improved FG%, I’m not going to argue with you…it’s subjective and correlation does not equal causation.
There’s a reason Kopp’s minutes have dropped the last two games and it’s not because the starting unit has been effective. The numbers clearly show how ineffective they are and the reason is obvious. I’d be willing to bet TJD and Race’s production increases when both aren’t on the floor with them. Having Stew and Kopp on the floor at the same time does not work. Keeping one on the floor and bringing in Galloway or Geronimo produces better results so why continue to fight it?

I've given you information. You have chosen to ignore it.

JG hasn't played a single minute at the 3 this season. He does not have the capability of doing so, currently. 

[Hoosier82]

2 hours ago, Victobmyboy said:

Read this close. It states why you can’t go by just some Twitter meme. 
 

https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/iu-basketball-mike-woodson-says-he-has-no-plans-to-change-the-starting-five/

Stats are a “Twitter Meme” when you disagree with the sentiment it’s asserting and the only form of applicable measure when they backup your opinion. Woody is digging in here and that’s his prerogative to go with a lineup he trusts but it doesn’t make him right. He’s used to having 10+ guys on his roster that can hit from anywhere on the court and I don’t expect him to be able to fully adapt to the college game/level of talent inside of one year. 

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, Hoosier82 said:

Stats are a “Twitter Meme” when you disagree with the sentiment it’s asserting and the only form of applicable measure when they backup your opinion. Woody is digging in here and that’s his prerogative to go with a lineup he trusts but it doesn’t make him right. He’s used to having 10+ guys on his roster that can hit from anywhere on the court and I don’t expect him to be able to fully adapt to the college game/level of talent inside of one year. 

He doesn't need to adapt anything. We need to add more dudes/develop guy with big time potential, now. TB, JG, TG, KL, and LD... plus add the studs coming in. 

[Hoosier82]

2 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I've given you information. You have chosen to ignore it.

JG hasn't played a single minute at the 3 this season. He does not have the capability of doing so, currently. 

Because your information is irrelevant to the arguement unless you can show TJD/Race’s production splits with the starting lineup vs all other lineups not featuring both Kopp & Stewart. For all you know their shooting % is down (which overall team scoring prodution stats seem to assert) with Kopp & Stewart and increase when one or both are not. 

[btownqb]

3 minutes ago, Hoosier82 said:

Because your information is irrelevant to the arguement unless you can show TJD/Race’s production splits with the starting lineup vs all other lineups not featuring both Kopp & Stewart. For all you know their shooting % is down (which overall team scoring prodution stats seem to assert) with Kopp & Stewart and increase when one or both are not. 

You cannot possibly believe that with the amount of mins they have played together. The argument wasn't "vs all other lineups."

"Kopp and Stewart aren't opening up anything down low, thus far." Factually inaccurate. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by btownqb

[Hoosier82]

1 minute ago, btownqb said:

He doesn't need to adapt anything. We need to add more dudes/develop guy with big time potential, now. TB, JG, TG, KL, and LD... plus add the studs coming in. 

I don’t disagree with that long term but I also don’t think making an adjustment to the current lineup stunts our development of younger guys in his system. There’s nothing wrong with adjusting to your current strengths without abandoning the overall coaching philosophy.