Michigan State Post Game Thread

[Inequality]

I don’t think anyone would dispute the value mental control in a hostile environment which I think is what @IUFLA is getting at in relation to how it can affect runs and momentum. I see your point. 

That said, I would have been ok with two or three chair throws yesterday.

[IowaHoosierFan]

30 minutes ago, FritzIam4IU said:

I think a few on here need to take a deep breath and relax. IU lost a game yesterday that most on here probably were  not expecting to win. Granted IU did not play very well, but I didn't see too many on here predicting a win. The sky isn't falling yet.

The Northwestern game hurt. It is a game we win most likely if not for the selfishness of 5 individuals, who thought of themselves instead of the team. If IU plays a full roster and wins that game, I doubt many are too worried about the chances of making the tourney or even that discouraged with the team/season. However, with a win against Wisconsin on Tuesday, there is no doubt IU would be solidly in the tourney at that point. They still control their own destiny. Four of the next six are very winnable games.

Yes, there are no guarantees they win 4 of 6, and the offense is a concern, but let's see how things play out before declaring this season over.

I wouldn't say any game other than maybe Maryland is very winnable.  Not with how we have been playing and how those team have played.  Wisc is not going to come in and lay down against us.  They have owned us for a decade or more.  OSU there is hostile and won't be easy, and they are talented.  Mentioned Maryland, then Minn at the Barn is always tough but we should win that one.  Then we finish at home with a Rutgers team that is beating alot of ranked teams and are really peaking at the right time.  We could catch them on a downslide or bad night but not very winnable in my opinion.  Then you have Purdue there.  That is going to be Hostile and most likely a loss.

So while there is no panic, there is an indication we're trending the wrong way with Individual play, leadership and overall game play.  Not unusual for an IU team the last 8 years but something i didn't expect under CMW.  Other than Race and XJ, no one else is getting better or playing better.  Kopp and PStew are actually doing less than early on.  Bates and JG haven't really gotten better and Galloway, while a great motor, isn't an offensive threat.

We do have the ability to lay the wood to people and we have seen it.  Unfortunately that is the exception and not the norm.  If we go 3-3 over the next six, i will say we succeeded.  Which 3 wins will determine if we have to make a big splash in the B1G tourney to get in.

I think we go 2-4 honestly.

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, Inequality said:

I don’t think anyone would dispute the value mental control in a hostile environment which I think is what @IUFLA is getting at in relation to how it can affect runs and momentum. I see your point. 

Exactly...and that includes the coaches...

 

3 minutes ago, Inequality said:

That said, I would have been ok with two or three chair throws yesterday.

Hey, if you're gonna go, go big...

[BGleas]

6 minutes ago, Inequality said:

I don’t think anyone would dispute the value mental control in a hostile environment which I think is what @IUFLA is getting at in relation to how it can affect runs and momentum. I see your point. 

That said, I would have been ok with two or three chair throws yesterday.

I just think we're debating the end result, not the actual action. 

We've seen tons of times where an opposing coach in a hostile Assembly Hall has gotten a T and it galvanized their team. 

Sure, a T can impact momentum, but it sounds like we're implying tech's are only negative for IU but works for other teams. 

The bottom line is IU didn't execute and MSU did. Technicals and trash talking were insignificant to the outcome. 

[FritzIam4IU]

1 minute ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I wouldn't say any game other than maybe Maryland is very winnable.  Not with how we have been playing and how those team have played.  Wisc is not going to come in and lay down against us.  They have owned us for a decade or more.  OSU there is hostile and won't be easy, and they are talented.  Mentioned Maryland, then Minn at the Barn is always tough but we should win that one.  Then we finish at home with a Rutgers team that is beating alot of ranked teams and are really peaking at the right time.  We could catch them on a downslide or bad night but not very winnable in my opinion.  Then you have Purdue there.  That is going to be Hostile and most likely a loss.

So while there is no panic, there is an indication we're trending the wrong way with Individual play, leadership and overall game play.  Not unusual for an IU team the last 8 years but something i didn't expect under CMW.  Other than Race and XJ, no one else is getting better or playing better.  Kopp and PStew are actually doing less than early on.  Bates and JG haven't really gotten better and Galloway, while a great motor, isn't an offensive threat.

We do have the ability to lay the wood to people and we have seen it.  Unfortunately that is the exception and not the norm.  If we go 3-3 over the next six, i will say we succeeded.  Which 3 wins will determine if we have to make a big splash in the B1G tourney to get in.

I think we go 2-4 honestly.

I would not bet a mortgage payment that we will go 4-2 down the stretch, but if you asked me my honest opinion I would guess 4-2. We played O$U extremely well at home, as well as PU, but I think those two are going to be vastly more difficult on the road. I would give us a fair chance at beating O$U and I would call PU a long shot, but would put both in the "probable" L column.

I think IU wins against the other 4. You have valid arguments for why they could be losses, but I think the team comes out strong on Tuesday against Wisconsin. They had them on the ropes in Madison and collapsed...I think IU will be ready for redemption in that game. Maryland should be a W unless IU just doesn't show up ready to play. I believe IU is just better than Minnesota, despite having issues winning at the barn in the past....I think CMW will be the difference. I think that home court will be the deciding factor with Rutgers.

Listen, I won't be "shocked" to go 3-3 in this stretch, but I would still guess 4-2. Even at 3-3 I think we make the big dance, with a win in the BTT.

[DC2345]

6 hours ago, ba43056 said:

They are counted on to be contributors to victories. In the roles they've had over the course of the season they have more often than not been non-factors offensively. Neither, especially Kopp are particular stellar on the defensive side of the ball either. 

That’s obvious and has nothing to do with the point that I was making. 

[IU Scott]

2 hours ago, IUFLA said:

In a 15 point game, probably not, but in a closer game it sure would...How would the Northwestern game have turned out without Walker's tech and 2 F1s by Galloway?

But my point was was more about doing it in front pf a hostile crowd, fueling their players, and momentum...particularly on the road...

Both Illinois and Michigan State backed their talk up...we didn't...

 

 

That is when you do it because teams get hosed in tbe road.  I loved Woodson standing up for his team.  RMK got 3 techs the game he threw the chair which led to 5 points.  I think we lost that game by 7-8 points. 

[rico]

16 hours ago, IU Scott said:

That is when you do it because teams get hosed in tbe road.  I loved Woodson standing up for his team.  RMK got 3 techs the game he threw the chair which led to 5 points.  I think we lost that game by 7-8 points. 

That team also "choked" down the stretch.  Losing like 6 of their last 7 and most of them at home.

[KoB2011]

8 minutes ago, rico said:

That team also "choked" down the stretch.  Losing like 6 of their last 7 and most of them at home.

With Bob Knight coaching? Impossible!

[rico]

5 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

With Bob Knight coaching? Impossible!

Sad but true.lol

[Billingsley99]

NIT BOUND

[ba43056]

18 hours ago, DC2345 said:

That’s obvious and has nothing to do with the point that I was making. 

No it wasn't. 

I'm just tired of Miller Kopp. 

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, ba43056 said:

No it wasn't. 

I'm just tired of Miller Kopp. 

A very strange, strange player to be tired of. He played 12 mins on Saturday. 

[btownqb]

On 2/13/2022 at 8:19 AM, ba43056 said:

They are counted on to be contributors to victories. In the roles they've had over the course of the season they have more often than not been non-factors offensively. Neither, especially Kopp are particular stellar on the defensive side of the ball either. 

MK is probably the most effective player we have at closing out on a shooter. He is essentially never out of position and he rebounds adequately. 

He does lack a little foot quickness. He's been above average defensively, though, especially for what I thought was a "major" weakness. Very good IQ on that end. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by btownqb

[IUFLA]

48 minutes ago, btownqb said:

MK is probably the most effective player we have at closing out on a shooter. He is essentially never out of position and he rebounds adequately. 

He does lack a little foot quickness. He's been above average defensively, though, especially for what I thought was a "major" weakness. Very good IQ on that end. 

Found this interesting, and I know it's partially a product of our overall defense, but both Stewart and Kopp are top 20 in Big 10 defensive rating...

[IU Scott]

2 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

With Bob Knight coaching? Impossible!

After that season IU made the next 18 tournaments

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

Found this interesting, and I know it's partially a product of our overall defense, but both Stewart and Kopp are top 20 in Big 10 defensive rating...

I appreciate you posting that. Do I think either are top 20 defenders? No. For sure neither are perfectly defensively, but I'm not sure where it has came about that those two are poor defensively. It's just not feasible to have two WEAK defenders play that many mins and still be a top 20 defensive team. Idk. jmo... I think our fans that think of those two as below average defenders are wrong. 

I don't think they are shut down, but they more than hold their own on that end of the court. Miller is a lot longer than people realize. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

6 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I appreciate you posting that. Do I think either are top 20 defenders? No. For sure neither are perfectly defensively, but I'm not sure where it has came about that those two are poor defensively. It's just not feasible to have two WEAK defenders play that many mins and still be a top 20 defensive team. Idk. jmo... I think our fans that think of those two as below average defenders are wrong. 

I don't think they are shut down, but they more than hold their own on that end of the court. Miller is a lot longer than people realize. 

I think their lack of offensive success recently has led people to color their whole play in a negative light.

[btownqb]

2 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I think their lack of offensive success recently has led people to color their whole play in a negative light.

Yeah, I mean I am frustrated with the whole thing, as well. It's just crazy that we are just going to put the whole blame on three dudes. I think you're right on the reasoning. 

Race Thompson has been awesome, he still gets lost for 5 points a game. Bates was great offensively the other day, he was also abysmal defensively Sat, especially in the first half. XJ couldn't stay out of foul trouble, Galloway was 0-6. No Rob P. Lander not ready to go. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

7 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Yeah, I mean I am frustrated with the whole thing, as well. It's just crazy that we are just going to put the whole blame on three dudes. I think you're right on the reasoning. 

Race Thompson has been awesome, he still gets lost for 5 points a game. Bates was great offensively the other day, he was also abysmal defensively Sat, especially in the first half. XJ couldn't stay out of foul trouble, Galloway was 0-6. No Rob P. Lander not ready to go. 

Honestly we're still a terrible offensive team.  When everything comes together we can play with anyone.  But that usually isn't the case.  With that, we rely on our defense to keep us in most games.  Our second unit isn't really good defensively.  Bates gets lost, JG can't stop fouling people.  Galloway turns it over to much, can't shoot and commits stupid fouls.  And Lander has no confidence at all on either end and is always looking at the bench to get yelled at for any mistake so he is pretty useless at this point.  

As you mentioned, Race disappears for times in the game but i think is the best player we have on the floor at any given time.  I think he should be the first touch in the paint and let him pass it off to Trace or shoot it.  Let Trace rebound and cut to the basket.  And although trace is a load underneath for smaller forwards/centers, If he isn't dunking the ball, he is pretty much a throw it at the rim kind of guy and hope it goes in or he gets fouled.

We can't shoot free throws to save our lives and it has cost us games all year and will continue to do so if we make the post season.

Defensively though, we're as tough to play against as any team in the country.  But eventually teams that can makes shots will pull away from us or as mentioned above, will beat us by hitting free throws when they need them.  And as much as i don't really care of Rob as a player, not having him at this point is hurting the team, specifically on defense.

Even if we make the tourney I really am not happy with how the season has gone so far.  Beating Purdue was nice and the beating we put on OSU was satisfying. But it seems like I am watching the same team from last year with some different names on offense.  And i don't know if teams change up their offense if something isn't working but we sure don't and listening to CMW in his last post game doesn't sound like we're going to.  I don't know, i just have zero faith this team will win on any given night.  And i hate feeling this way.  I want to be like it was with the Zeller years.  I was so excited to watch them and was sure we were going to win every single game we played, all the way to a NC.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[94hoosier]

Parker and Kopp playing good position D. They can can beat by foot speed but both give good effort. Parker is big guy and when he plays physical he can give guys a hard time. It helps both that Davis and Thompson have been good at forcing tough shots when the guards get beat. Neither are all conference defenders but not bad either. 

[AxnJxn]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

Found this interesting, and I know it's partially a product of our overall defense, but both Stewart and Kopp are top 20 in Big 10 defensive rating...

I'm curious how defensive rating is calculated? Didn't have much success on searching, but figured it would be easier to ask here, anyway. I'm curious if it's related at all to those top two guys on that list making up for getting beat off the dribble, or is it more individual than that?

[btownqb]

19 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Honestly we're still a terrible offensive team.  When everything comes together we can play with anyone.  But that usually isn't the case.  With that, we rely on our defense to keep us in most games.  Our second unit isn't really good defensively.  Bates gets lost, JG can't stop fouling people.  Galloway turns it over to much, can't shoot and commits stupid fouls.  And Lander has no confidence at all on either end and is always looking at the bench to get yelled at for any mistake so he is pretty useless at this point.  

As you mentioned, Race disappears for times in the game but i think is the best player we have on the floor at any given time.  I think he should be the first touch in the paint and let him pass it off to Trace or shoot it.  Let Trace rebound and cut to the basket.  And although trace is a load underneath for smaller forwards/centers, If he isn't dunking the ball, he is pretty much a throw it at the rim kind of guy and hope it goes in or he gets fouled.

We can't shoot free throws to save our lives and it has cost us games all year and will continue to do so if we make the post season.

Defensively though, we're as tough to play against as any team in the country.  But eventually teams that can makes shots will pull away from us or as mentioned above, will beat us by hitting free throws when they need them.  And as much as i don't really care of Rob as a player, not having him at this point is hurting the team, specifically on defense.

Even if we make the tourney I really am not happy with how the season has gone so far.  Beating Purdue was nice and the beating we put on OSU was satisfying. But it seems like I am watching the same team from last year with some different names on offense.  And i don't know if teams change up their offense if something isn't working but we sure don't and listening to CMW in his last post game doesn't sound like we're going to.  I don't know, i just have zero faith this team will win on any given night.  And i hate feeling this way.  I want to be like it was with the Zeller years.  I was so excited to watch them and was sure we were going to win every single game we played, all the way to a NC.

Sorry for the long post.

 

Whole lot that I disagree with here. That doesn't mean you are wrong though. 

Only thing I am going to say, I believe you are allowing the lack of our team's shooting ability to sway your opinion of our current team, CMW and staff, and program.

[tdhoosier]

23 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Honestly we're still a terrible offensive team.  When everything comes together we can play with anyone.  But that usually isn't the case.  With that, we rely on our defense to keep us in most games.  Our second unit isn't really good defensively.  Bates gets lost, JG can't stop fouling people.  Galloway turns it over to much, can't shoot and commits stupid fouls.  And Lander has no confidence at all on either end and is always looking at the bench to get yelled at for any mistake so he is pretty useless at this point.  

As you mentioned, Race disappears for times in the game but i think is the best player we have on the floor at any given time.  I think he should be the first touch in the paint and let him pass it off to Trace or shoot it.  Let Trace rebound and cut to the basket.  And although trace is a load underneath for smaller forwards/centers, If he isn't dunking the ball, he is pretty much a throw it at the rim kind of guy and hope it goes in or he gets fouled.

We can't shoot free throws to save our lives and it has cost us games all year and will continue to do so if we make the post season.

Defensively though, we're as tough to play against as any team in the country.  But eventually teams that can makes shots will pull away from us or as mentioned above, will beat us by hitting free throws when they need them.  And as much as i don't really care of Rob as a player, not having him at this point is hurting the team, specifically on defense.

Even if we make the tourney I really am not happy with how the season has gone so far.  Beating Purdue was nice and the beating we put on OSU was satisfying. But it seems like I am watching the same team from last year with some different names on offense.  And i don't know if teams change up their offense if something isn't working but we sure don't and listening to CMW in his last post game doesn't sound like we're going to.  I don't know, i just have zero faith this team will win on any given night.  And i hate feeling this way.  I want to be like it was with the Zeller years.  I was so excited to watch them and was sure we were going to win every single game we played, all the way to a NC.

Sorry for the long post.

 

It certainly is frustrating and I hope we find ourselves out of this funk (or whatever we're in). I think the thing that gets me is that our adjusted offensive rank on KenPom right now is 111. Last year under Archie it was 70. We have better talent and better shooters this year, IMO. The same problems plague us. And I thought we were getting a fun, free-flowing offense.

Perhaps I should have managed my expectations better. I haven't lost faith in the program as a whole, but if we don't make the tournament this year AGIAN, it is going to hurt. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

4 hours ago, btownqb said:

Whole lot that I disagree with here. That doesn't mean you are wrong though. 

Only thing I am going to say, I believe you are allowing the lack of our team's shooting ability to sway your opinion of our current team, CMW and staff, and program.

Not sure where i am too wrong.  But here are some glaring numbers per game and totals.  Which says we're a terrible offensive team.  The number of shots attempted and made are really low with the percent made being low.  We shoot free throws terribly.  Our 3 point shooting in attempts and made is CAM low with a bad percentage made. We don't rebound the offensive ball well.  On the flip side we're really good on the defensive end except for steals and personal fouls. 

But you don't have to agree with me.  Its ok.  I probably had too high of expectations for the year.  Still could end up a great year if we go on a winning streak into the tourney.