Seeking6 Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 12 minutes ago, Reacher said: Read this article I linked earlier that explains his history and motivations as well as what @dgambill just posted https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340?tpcc=nlceodaily Good article. I'm going to have reread again later to think it out a bit more....because I keep coming back to the same thing. We know what he wants....but he also has to know that we/NATO/World know what he wants and we will do anything to prevent his goal from coming true. What's his next move after all the talk? The only I see is the one none of us should want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Seeking6 said: Good article. I'm going to have reread again later to think it out a bit more....because I keep coming back to the same thing. We know what he wants....but he also has to know that we/NATO/World know what he wants and we will do anything to prevent his goal from coming true. What's his next move after all the talk? The only I see is the one none of us should want. I think he could very well drag this out to get his way in the end. Russian lives are disposable to him. He knows when he has control of the Ukraine, his leverage of food, energy and raw materials will give him power that will allow him to recover from any short term pain he is enduring now. And how are we gong to stop him if we don't actually get Nato troops involved on the ground or in the air? Just don't see that happening. Edited March 1, 2022 by Reacher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 Look at this guy. 44 years old. Jewish. Got a cute wife. By all indications, adores his two young kids. This picture feels like one I scroll past on my FB feed every day. May as well be a stock photo from a buddy's kids birthday party yesterday. I’m still not convinced it’s not. And yet this same guy is the democratically elected, charismatic head of state of the largest country in Europe, whose courage in cleverly fighting back Putin’s tyranny at a terrifyingly real (and likely fatal) danger to both himself and everyone else in this picture is inspiring both his nation and the world. The human tip of the tip of the spear leading humanity in our suddenly hot global fight to defend freedom and stop the advances of a nuclear-armed madman. Read that paragraph again. This guy. Him. So much of politics and foreign policy can be messy and multi-layered, and therefore often hard to properly adjudicate right vs. wrong, good guys vs. bad guys. This one isn’t. I’m in awe of this man and his bravery. #Zelensky #ukraine #Hero 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 58 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said: Look at this guy. 44 years old. Jewish. Got a cute wife. By all indications, adores his two young kids. This picture feels like one I scroll past on my FB feed every day. May as well be a stock photo from a buddy's kids birthday party yesterday. I’m still not convinced it’s not. And yet this same guy is the democratically elected, charismatic head of state of the largest country in Europe, whose courage in cleverly fighting back Putin’s tyranny at a terrifyingly real (and likely fatal) danger to both himself and everyone else in this picture is inspiring both his nation and the world. The human tip of the tip of the spear leading humanity in our suddenly hot global fight to defend freedom and stop the advances of a nuclear-armed madman. Read that paragraph again. This guy. Him. So much of politics and foreign policy can be messy and multi-layered, and therefore often hard to properly adjudicate right vs. wrong, good guys vs. bad guys. This one isn’t. I’m in awe of this man and his bravery. #Zelensky #ukraine #Hero @Steubenhoosier I promise this isn't directed just at you....I've seen this sort of thing mentioned by hundreds of people online and in articles...just using your post to reflect a bit....again nothing wrong with what you are saying necessarily! This is exactly why Americans identify with this war....yet similar atrocities are happening all over the world but because the people being murdered are black, brown, and yellow and don't look like people on our "facebook" page we don't care. Be wonderful if our economic, business, and world leaders treated those aggressors against those families the same by boycotting, pulling out their businesses, and sending aid to them the same way they are standing up for the Ukrainians. I promise you there are people just as brave and probably even more deserving of that "praise" but since they don't look like people on typical facebook feed well....we just don't care! War and oppression knows no color/race...and pouring a few bottles of vodka out or cutting off a couple twitter users is almost meaningless when we allow those doing the exact same thing off with nary a complaint....we go right on buying all our merchandise and investing all our companies there or purchasing oil etc. It's happening in S America, Africa, Middle East, China....so many places but dangit those white European people are so much more deserving of our aid and attention. Again...not pointing out anyone specifically...I'm just as guilty as anyone else....but it's certainly interesting to watch how differently the urgency and attention etc is with this crisis vs what we know is happening elsewhere but we have no resolve to fight those battles or even read an article or book about it much less take a stand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Reacher said: I think he could very well drag this out to get his way in the end. Russian lives are disposable to him. He knows when he has control of the Ukraine, his leverage of food, energy and raw materials will give him power that will allow him to recover from any short term pain he is enduring now. And how are we gong to stop him if we don't actually get Nato troops involved on the ground or in the air? Just don't see that happening. It won't be stopped unless it get's too expensive/painful....but no one is coming to their aid...I can almost promise you that. 1 hour ago, Seeking6 said: Good article. I'm going to have reread again later to think it out a bit more....because I keep coming back to the same thing. We know what he wants....but he also has to know that we/NATO/World know what he wants and we will do anything to prevent his goal from coming true. What's his next move after all the talk? The only I see is the one none of us should want. Putin knew he would be sanctioned....knew it would be painful....but also knows it will be temporary...he will leave behind a puppet state after taking the gains he wishes to keep (important parts of Ukraine) and the sanctions will eventually be lifted. Those who say they are taking their business out of Russia will reinvest...after all they will be buying low getting back in and can't pass up the $$$....after all if they don't China will....he knows people's resolve and attention span are very very limited in the West....and likely the govt will change...leadership will change and eventually he give us some token appeasement and all will be restored....he knows next Fall Europe will be begging for his Oil/NG and they will move on. Trust me he is counting on EU and the West losing their resolve and knows that $$ talks and they will want his Russian energy and investment in their economy again and perhaps slip a few million into some politicians coffers....maybe pay off some of their family members....it doesn't just happen in the US....EU is filthy corrupt as well....all will go back to the way it was and he will just have to worry about uprisings and political landscape of his new conquest....just like happened in Crimea, Chechnya, and Georgia. Edited March 1, 2022 by dgambill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 2 hours ago, Reacher said: Read this article I linked earlier that explains his history and motivations as well as what @dgambill just posted https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340?tpcc=nlceodaily Good article. Very thorough….and a bit disturbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostin76 Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 3 hours ago, Reacher said: Read this article I linked earlier that explains his history and motivations as well as what @dgambill just posted https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340?tpcc=nlceodaily She knows him as well as any American I feel like. And it is a very sobering article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Reacher said: Read this article I linked earlier that explains his history and motivations as well as what @dgambill just posted https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340?tpcc=nlceodaily I've been telling people for that last 2 years we are already fighting WW3. Should be no surprise. 5GW Edited March 1, 2022 by mrflynn03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 2 hours ago, dgambill said: @Steubenhoosier I promise this isn't directed just at you....I've seen this sort of thing mentioned by hundreds of people online and in articles...just using your post to reflect a bit....again nothing wrong with what you are saying necessarily! This is exactly why Americans identify with this war....yet similar atrocities are happening all over the world but because the people being murdered are black, brown, and yellow and don't look like people on our "facebook" page we don't care. Be wonderful if our economic, business, and world leaders treated those aggressors against those families the same by boycotting, pulling out their businesses, and sending aid to them the same way they are standing up for the Ukrainians. I promise you there are people just as brave and probably even more deserving of that "praise" but since they don't look like people on typical facebook feed well....we just don't care! War and oppression knows no color/race...and pouring a few bottles of vodka out or cutting off a couple twitter users is almost meaningless when we allow those doing the exact same thing off with nary a complaint....we go right on buying all our merchandise and investing all our companies there or purchasing oil etc. It's happening in S America, Africa, Middle East, China....so many places but dangit those white European people are so much more deserving of our aid and attention. Again...not pointing out anyone specifically...I'm just as guilty as anyone else....but it's certainly interesting to watch how differently the urgency and attention etc is with this crisis vs what we know is happening elsewhere but we have no resolve to fight those battles or even read an article or book about it much less take a stand. Where else in the world is a top 3 military invading another sovereign country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 And going further, when Iraq invaded Kuwait did the world take action? Yes they did... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 45 minutes ago, IUFLA said: And going further, when Iraq invaded Kuwait did the world take action? Yes they did... Kuwait was likely slant drilling into Iraqi oil fields. We should have left Saddam alone. He was a shitty person but kept the middle east in check. Not like we don't have our share of human rights violations. Japanese internment, Tuskegee experiments, MK ultra, ect... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said: Kuwait was likely slant drilling into Iraqi oil fields. We should have left Saddam alone. He was a shitty person but kept the middle east in check. Not like we don't have our share of human rights violations. Japanese internment, Tuskegee experiments, MK ultra, ect... Atrocities against our fellow man are as old as mankind itself... I've never defended our actions when I thought they were wrong...and we've been wrong plenty... But saying the severity of the actions we're taking toward Russia are simply driven by the race of the oppressed is baloney as far as I'm concerned... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inequality Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 10 hours ago, Drroogh said: When you all figure things out, let me and and my half Ukrainian Russian friend know because we are clueless! As my friend says “Mr Putin didn’t ask me “ I’m with you. It’s such a twilight zone world anymore that personally, I don’t believe squat. I’m of the opinion that there is always more to what’s being presented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said: How is race a part of this? I'm confused. We have a dementia patient for a so called president and a neutered western Europe. Canada is basically communist. Putin is taking advantage. Don't forget the uniparty is in bed with China, China supports Russia, and the biden families dirty deals in Ukraine. Ukraine is the deep states playground. Did you read the initial post I responded to? 4 hours ago, dgambill said: similar atrocities are happening all over the world but because the people being murdered are black, brown, and yellow and don't look like people on our "facebook" page we don't care I think @dgambill is a great poster... One of the best... But I don't agree with that statement at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 15 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Did you read the initial post I responded to? Yeah, unless I'm mistaken you said But saying the severity of the actions we're taking toward Russia are simply driven by the race of the oppressed is baloney as far as I'm concerned... 15 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I think @dgambill is a great poster... One of the best... But I don't agree with that statement at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 2, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said: Yeah, unless I'm mistaken you said But saying the severity of the actions we're taking toward Russia are simply driven by the race of the oppressed is baloney as far as I'm concerned... I don't understand where you're confused... @dgambill's premise was that the reason we care so much about Ukraine being invaded by Russia was because "they look like us." And also stated when atrocities are committed against people of color, we don't care I cited one example (Iraq's invasion of Kuwait...the slant drilling accusations were never proven and even if that was the case, it's not justification for an invasion) where we certainly did care...and there are many other examples... I think @dgambill is an awesome poster, but I disagree with his premise that how much we care is driven by the race of the oppressed... Does that clarify it? Edited March 2, 2022 by IUFLA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 Gentle reminder - we will have a quick trigger on offending posts here. Thanks for the self-moderation thus far. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 People have been predicting this for 10+ years. Primary reason for the Russian invasion comes from threat of Ukraine to join NATO. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1498491107902062592.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 (edited) Fascinating analysis of the the early days of the invasion and Russian strategy- https://www.newsweek.com/shocking-lessons-us-military-leaders-learned-watching-putins-invasion-1683625 "Other military observers are flabbergasted that a Russian invasion force, fully prepared and operating from Russian soil, has been able to move just tens of miles into an adjoining country. One retired U.S. Army general told Newsweek in an email: "We know that Russia has a plodding army and that Russian military force has always been a blunt instrument, but why risk the antipathy of the entire planet if you have no prospect of achieving even minimal gains." The Army general believes that the only explanation is that the Kremlin overestimated its own forces." Edited March 2, 2022 by Reacher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 12 hours ago, IUFLA said: I don't understand where you're confused... @dgambill's premise was that the reason we care so much about Ukraine being invaded by Russia was because "they look like us." And also stated when atrocities are committed against people of color, we don't care I cited one example (Iraq's invasion of Kuwait...the slant drilling accusations were never proven and even if that was the case, it's not justification for an invasion) where we certainly did care...and there are many other examples... I think @dgambill is an awesome poster, but I disagree with his premise that how much we care is driven by the race of the oppressed... Does that clarify it? Yes it does clarify it. Wasn't trying to be combative just didn't know how that came in. Guess I missed that part of dgambills post. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 35 minutes ago, Reacher said: So I can go to Ukraine and capture a tank? Hell yeah! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 15 hours ago, IUFLA said: Where else in the world is a top 3 military invading another sovereign country? Why does that matter...when people are being murdered and human rights violated does it matter only if the person doing it is a top 3 military or it is a nation as a whole? 14 hours ago, IUFLA said: Atrocities against our fellow man are as old as mankind itself... I've never defended our actions when I thought they were wrong...and we've been wrong plenty... But saying the severity of the actions we're taking toward Russia are simply driven by the race of the oppressed is baloney as far as I'm concerned... I appreciate your kind words and appreciate your difference of opinion. I understand why you feel the way you do and hold your opinion as you do. No hard feelings at all on the difference in viewing this. I figured it might not be a popular post or position. I've just seen a whole lot of people identifying with the "faces" of those in this conflict.....because they relate to them. I'm not disagreeing that we haven't gone in and done the right thing in the past in some instances....but where is the outpouring of support for Uyghurs in China...I see no sanctions, I see few if any businesses pulling out China, I see few celebrities standing with them and verbalizing/standing against them...and few facebook and media nightly calling for action against it. We have had atrocities over and over in Syria, Cuba, Venezuela, Burma and how many years in Africa where genocide is common...and while our govt has taken various actions the outrage amongst us people has been widely uninterested to say the least imo and media coverage has largely been brief because the images didn't "resonate" with the viewers. All of a sudden these people look like my neighbors and suddenly it is 24/7 coverage, outrage, and desperate prayers and support and global industries and business breaking ties etc. The response and attitude towards it has been strikenly different...and I am would say that I am just as guilty as anyone as how quickly I forget to pray or stop sending donations for those being oppressed...being murdered and suffering. My point wasn't to point fingers at others or purely say this is a racial thing per say (although this in my mind is a natural/subconscious racism even so much that probably can't be changed but ingrained in us)...but to say when the stakes are low...when the bar is low...it is easy to take a stand against Russia....nothing to lose for these businesses and billionaires and the media....but what about when you have something more serious to lose....$$$...because your network has huge ties to say China....or you sell tons of products there...or have a majority of your manufacturing there...suddenly people clam up. Govts waffle. Citizenry when they don't identify with the pictures simply say that's a shame and turn back to another channel or back to their lives. Businesses when they see a chance to earn more $$ or take a financial set back suddenly go quiet or take no real action to punish or stop doing business with these regimes that commit the crimes. They are actually financing the evil...and even myself in a way buy their products and services are also a part of this web...bothers me a lot actually....but like I said I quickly grow numb and forget because the faces don't cry out to me daily and I get distracted by my own life and hardships. I'm not trying to undermine the seriousness of the moment...the gravity and severity of what Putin is doing...but I am taking a moment to point out these are not the only victims....casualties of atrocities in the world. People are still being killed by the Syrian govt with weapons of war....people are still being murdered and encamped by the Chinese govt for their religion. Similarly in Burma. People are still being hunted down in the middle east for being Christian. Women, children, fathers...murdered because they are from a different tribe or religion in Africa. Women and children murdered and raped trying to make it to the US from South and Central America. Murdered and imprisoned in Cuba for speaking against the govt. I guess we could go on all night. Just finish by saying let us remember ALL those suffering...and let us not just pick and choose when we are outraged and standing up to evil...let us do it all the time consistently...and let people/govt really put their money where their mouth is in the same way. To long businesses and our govt saying the right thing in public but taking $$$ and doing business and deals with those committing evil without a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 @dgambill, I think the reason for the Ukranian support has little to due with race, but rather the fact that they are the subject of a large military invasion that if unchecked could breach into other western European countries, set a dangerous post WWII precedent and lead to further destabilization and a potential WW III. Georgia was a backwater with minimal significance. Ukraine has size and relevance. Ethnic and religious minority persecution is a totally separate issue. Yes, both are wrong. Russia needs to be stopped here and now. The world is seeing this. Even China is distancing itself (a bit) from Russia. Hopefully the world wakes up and focuses on other injustices occurring around the world as well. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted March 2, 2022 Report Share Posted March 2, 2022 29 minutes ago, dgambill said: Why does that matter...when people are being murdered and human rights violated does it matter only if the person doing it is a top 3 military or it is a nation as a whole? I appreciate your kind words and appreciate your difference of opinion. I understand why you feel the way you do and hold your opinion as you do. No hard feelings at all on the difference in viewing this. I figured it might not be a popular post or position. I've just seen a whole lot of people identifying with the "faces" of those in this conflict.....because they relate to them. I'm not disagreeing that we haven't gone in and done the right thing in the past in some instances....but where is the outpouring of support for Uyghurs in China...I see no sanctions, I see few if any businesses pulling out China, I see few celebrities standing with them and verbalizing/standing against them...and few facebook and media nightly calling for action against it. We have had atrocities over and over in Syria, Cuba, Venezuela, Burma and how many years in Africa where genocide is common...and while our govt has taken various actions the outrage amongst us people has been widely uninterested to say the least imo and media coverage has largely been brief because the images didn't "resonate" with the viewers. All of a sudden these people look like my neighbors and suddenly it is 24/7 coverage, outrage, and desperate prayers and support and global industries and business breaking ties etc. The response and attitude towards it has been strikenly different...and I am would say that I am just as guilty as anyone as how quickly I forget to pray or stop sending donations for those being oppressed...being murdered and suffering. My point wasn't to point fingers at others or purely say this is a racial thing per say (although this in my mind is a natural/subconscious racism even so much that probably can't be changed but ingrained in us)...but to say when the stakes are low...when the bar is low...it is easy to take a stand against Russia....nothing to lose for these businesses and billionaires and the media....but what about when you have something more serious to lose....$$$...because your network has huge ties to say China....or you sell tons of products there...or have a majority of your manufacturing there...suddenly people clam up. Govts waffle. Citizenry when they don't identify with the pictures simply say that's a shame and turn back to another channel or back to their lives. Businesses when they see a chance to earn more $$ or take a financial set back suddenly go quiet or take no real action to punish or stop doing business with these regimes that commit the crimes. They are actually financing the evil...and even myself in a way buy their products and services are also a part of this web...bothers me a lot actually....but like I said I quickly grow numb and forget because the faces don't cry out to me daily and I get distracted by my own life and hardships. I'm not trying to undermine the seriousness of the moment...the gravity and severity of what Putin is doing...but I am taking a moment to point out these are not the only victims....casualties of atrocities in the world. People are still being killed by the Syrian govt with weapons of war....people are still being murdered and encamped by the Chinese govt for their religion. Similarly in Burma. People are still being hunted down in the middle east for being Christian. Women, children, fathers...murdered because they are from a different tribe or religion in Africa. Women and children murdered and raped trying to make it to the US from South and Central America. Murdered and imprisoned in Cuba for speaking against the govt. I guess we could go on all night. Just finish by saying let us remember ALL those suffering...and let us not just pick and choose when we are outraged and standing up to evil...let us do it all the time consistently...and let people/govt really put their money where their mouth is in the same way. To long businesses and our govt saying the right thing in public but taking $$$ and doing business and deals with those committing evil without a thought. Super long post and I am in to brevity. Celebrities can eat shit. I don't care what they think. China and Russia are balls deep in the US government uniparty The US government is illegitimate and they can kiss my ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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