Offseason 2022

[Steubenhoosier]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Last thing on this I never said the bench should only play 7 minutes like they did in that LSU game.  I just don't see anything wrong with it if it is meeded bit never said it should be like this every game.

Also how do these kids play 5 AAU games in a week end but can't play over 30 minutes in a game yeice a week.  I would bet some of you guys would call it cruel and unusual punishment for kids to play two games in a day like the regionals, semi State and State finals were in the one class tournament.

From what I can tell about AAU games, they pretty much rest on defense 

[5fouls]

5 minutes ago, bluegrassIU said:

I usually hate when people say "agree to disagree".

But right now, it might give me a "happy ending".

That sounds..........a little dirty.

[tdhoosier]

1 hour ago, Kdug said:

We really didn't try to play 10 players meaningful minutes, especially at the end of the season. When you look at the box scores after rob came back (excluding St Marys since there was a lot of garbage time), we typically would play 9 players with 1-2 players getting 5-10 minutes and 1 player getting less than 5 minutes.

What's not being debated (for the most part):
-Players need rest (check)
-According to the 'macro numbers', our starters played a lot of minutes (check)

What I continue to debate:
-It's not that bench players received too many minutes, it's that Woody took all the productive players out at ONE TIME. Whether this came with one substitution or a few substitutions: there were many times that a bad line up was on the floor and cost us momentum, lost the lead, let our opponents back into the game. 
 

Because @btownqb said I needed to go back and watch the games. I did. I realized I still have them on my DVR. It wasn't really that hard because this 'bad line up' always is in around the 10.00 mark in the first half.

A 'bad lineup' is defined as one without one of our 3 best players on the floor: Race, TJD and X. 

Below are the games still available on my DVR.....
-Woody had the 'bad  lineup' on the floor every game except once. 
-The bad line up was always used around the ten minute mark
-In every situation there was a point swing not in our favor. And many of the times that line-up killed the momentum that we had gained prior to it going in. 

St. Mary's
*We were up 18-14 when the bad lineup went in. When one of TJD, Race or XJ came back in we were down 21-26
*Result: -9 point swing 

Wyoming
*Bad line up enters at 10.18 with IU up 11-8. IU is only up 13-12 when TJD and XJ sub back in at 6.48
*Result: -3 point swing. We only score 2 points in 3 and a half minutes. 

Iowa
One of our Big 3 (TJD, XJ, Race) remained in the lined up at all times during the first half. 

Illinois
*Bad line up enters at 11.57 with IU up 15-10. IU is only up 15-14 when TJD and subs back in at 9.56
*Result: -4 point swing. 

Michigan
*Bad line up in at 9.05 with IU down 10-19. IU is down 14-25 when TJD subs bak in at 7.04
*Result: -2 point swing

Purdue
The early game on ESPN ran late, so the IU game cut in on my DVR with 8.00 left in the first half. The lineup was at full strength at this point, but PU was coming off a 10-0 run. Perhaps somebody can remember who was in the game around the 10.00 mark. Based on a pattern you see forming, I'm betting that lineup didn't contain one of our best 3. 

Rutgers
*Bad line up in at 8.44 with IU up 21-16. Race checks in at 6.06; IU is only up 18-21
*result -2 point swing

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by tdhoosier

[IUCrazy2]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

 

You know, I agree with @btownqb about as often as @IU Scott's subjects and verbs, but he's right here...

Any coach in a P6 conference is at the top of his profession and knows more about the games than any of us...

Crean, Miller, and Coach Woodson didn't come to Bloomington on a turnip truck...

 

Compared to you and I, sure.  I don't think landing at a power conference school necessarily means you are some great basketball mind.  Often it means you were at the right place and time and were a hot name.  "Great" is not flaming out at Indiana.  "Great" is winning multiple titles.  Winning 70%+ of your games.  Maybe it is the word "great" that I am taking issue with or have a different definition for.

Full stop, I think if given the chance, there are a whole bunch of coaches out in D1 who could have done as well or better than Archie Miller did here.

[Hoosier51]

2 hours ago, 5fouls said:

To be fair, in the championshipgame this year, UNC had 4 players play over 35 minutes.  Kansas had 2, and another play 34.  Both teams had someone go 40.

Also Agbaji averaged 35.1 minutes per game this season and Christian Braun was close at 34.4. Caleb Love was at 34.4. There actually are players that play 35 minutes and quite a few close at 34.

I am late to this conversation so ignore if this was already posted lol.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Hoosier51

[Kdug]

12 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

What's not being debated (for the most part):
-Players need rest (check)
-According to the 'macro numbers', our starters played a lot of minutes (check)

What I continue to debate:
-It's not that bench players received too many minutes, it's that Woody took all the productive players out at ONE TIME. Whether this came with one substitution or a few substitutions: there were many times that a bad line up was on the floor and cost us momentum, lost the lead, let our opponents back into the game. 
 

Because @btownqb said I needed to go back and watch the games. I did. I realized I still have them on my DVR. It wasn't really that hard because this 'bad line up' always is in around the 10.00 mark in the first half.

A 'bad lineup' is defined as one without one of our 3 best players on the floor: Race, TJD and X. 

Below are the games still available on my DVR.....
-Woody had the 'bad  lineup' on the floor every game except once. 
-The bad line up was always used around the ten minute mark
-In every situation there was a point swing not in our favor. And many of the times that line-up killed the momentum that we had gained prior to it going in. 

St. Mary's
*We were up 18-14 when the bad lineup went in. When one of TJD, Race or XJ came back in we were down 21-26
*Result: -9 point swing 

Wyoming
*Bad line up enters at 10.18 with IU up 11-8. IU is only up 13-12 when TJD and XJ sub back in at 6.48
*Result: -3 point swing. We only score 2 points in 3 and a half minutes. 

Iowa
One of our Big 3 (TJD, XJ, Race) remained in the lined up at all times during the first half. 

Illinois
*Bad line up enters at 11.57 with IU up 15-10. IU is only up 15-14 when TJD and subs back in at 9.56
*Result: -4 point swing. 

Michigan
*Bad line up in at 9.05 with IU down 10-19. IU is down 14-25 when TJD subs bak in at 7.04
*Result: -2 point swing

Purdue
The early game on ESPN ran late, so the IU game cut in on my DVR with 8.00 left in the first half. The lineup was at full strength at this point, but PU was coming off a 10-0 run. Perhaps somebody can remember who was in the game around the 10.00 mark. Based on a pattern you see forming, I'm betting that lineup didn't contain one of our best 3. 

Rutgers
*Bad line up in at 8.44 with IU up 21-16. Race checks in at 6.06; IU is only up 18-21
*result -2 point swing

 

Fair critique. Although I think this shows a lack of depth rather than poor substitutions. We were at our best when X and TJD were in the game together, especially at the end of the year. If we’re trying to make sure one of them (or Race) is always on the floor, we’d have less time with our most effective duo. IMO that might help us during these stretches, but hurt us when we don’t have X and TJD playing together as much.

[Hoosier51]

2 hours ago, Jerseys4Hope said:

Having a deep bench is vital anymore. Even just a really reliable 6th man goes a long way with the right coach.

Kansas was 296th in bench minutes, North Carolina was 344th and Duke was 314th. It's quality not quantity that is the most important aspect of your bench.

[btownqb]

11 minutes ago, Hoosier51 said:

Kansas was 296th in bench minutes, North Carolina was 344th and Duke was 314th. It's quality not quantity that is the most important aspect of your bench.

But we don't have the starters to be compared to them, to begin with. 

[btownqb]

32 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Compared to you and I, sure.  I don't think landing at a power conference school necessarily means you are some great basketball mind.  Often it means you were at the right place and time and were a hot name.  "Great" is not flaming out at Indiana.  "Great" is winning multiple titles.  Winning 70%+ of your games.  Maybe it is the word "great" that I am taking issue with or have a different definition for.

Full stop, I think if given the chance, there are a whole bunch of coaches out in D1 who could have done as well or better than Archie Miller did here.

If you are a D1 basketball coach, youre pretty much a great basketball mind. 

[Hoosier51]

2 minutes ago, btownqb said:

But we don't have the starters to be compared to them, to begin with. 

I never said we did. It just shows that a deep bench rotation isn't needed or even having a deep bench is needed to make a March run.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Hoosier51

[btownqb]

51 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

What's not being debated (for the most part):
-Players need rest (check)
-According to the 'macro numbers', our starters played a lot of minutes (check)

What I continue to debate:
-It's not that bench players received too many minutes, it's that Woody took all the productive players out at ONE TIME. Whether this came with one substitution or a few substitutions: there were many times that a bad line up was on the floor and cost us momentum, lost the lead, let our opponents back into the game. 
 

Because @btownqb said I needed to go back and watch the games. I did. I realized I still have them on my DVR. It wasn't really that hard because this 'bad line up' always is in around the 10.00 mark in the first half.

A 'bad lineup' is defined as one without one of our 3 best players on the floor: Race, TJD and X. 

Below are the games still available on my DVR.....
-Woody had the 'bad  lineup' on the floor every game except once. 
-The bad line up was always used around the ten minute mark
-In every situation there was a point swing not in our favor. And many of the times that line-up killed the momentum that we had gained prior to it going in. 

St. Mary's
*We were up 18-14 when the bad lineup went in. When one of TJD, Race or XJ came back in we were down 21-26
*Result: -9 point swing 

Wyoming
*Bad line up enters at 10.18 with IU up 11-8. IU is only up 13-12 when TJD and XJ sub back in at 6.48
*Result: -3 point swing. We only score 2 points in 3 and a half minutes. 

Iowa
One of our Big 3 (TJD, XJ, Race) remained in the lined up at all times during the first half. 

Illinois
*Bad line up enters at 11.57 with IU up 15-10. IU is only up 15-14 when TJD and subs back in at 9.56
*Result: -4 point swing. 

Michigan
*Bad line up in at 9.05 with IU down 10-19. IU is down 14-25 when TJD subs bak in at 7.04
*Result: -2 point swing

Purdue
The early game on ESPN ran late, so the IU game cut in on my DVR with 8.00 left in the first half. The lineup was at full strength at this point, but PU was coming off a 10-0 run. Perhaps somebody can remember who was in the game around the 10.00 mark. Based on a pattern you see forming, I'm betting that lineup didn't contain one of our best 3. 

Rutgers
*Bad line up in at 8.44 with IU up 21-16. Race checks in at 6.06; IU is only up 18-21
*result -2 point swing

 

This isn't giving me anything. I understand we aren't going to be as good, at times, when the bench is on the court. The Michigan, RU, Purdue, and Wyoming games don't support your stance.

And a 4 min break for TJD where we are only -2, is good for our basketball team. He has to rest. 

But, just in general.. none of what you listed is a big deal... especially when you think those guys have to rest. 

Go look back in those games and tell me what the rotations were the last 6-8 mins of the game and what the +/- was

Edited April 12, 2022 by btownqb

[Hoosier51]

13 minutes ago, btownqb said:

No, but you aren't winning regularly with 7. 

You're confusing me with someone else because I never once said you could. I clearly showed that you don't need a deep bench rotation to win.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Hoosier51

[IowaHoosierFan]

14 minutes ago, btownqb said:

No, but you aren't winning regularly with 7. 

That is about as true or provable as saying we can win more by only playing 7.  We have no idea because we never did it. 

And i don't have a problem giving starters a breather.  I just don't think at any given time should your best 3 players, when you only have 3 really good players, should be on the bench at the same time, unless you are really controlling the game or getting it handed to you.

With that said, i understand that my way of thinking doesn't align with yours or some others and unfortunately aligns with IUScott which makes me want to change my opinion lol, just kidding IUScott  .  I am probably colored by watching 80-90s IU basketball where knight played his starters for such long times.  I am aware that isn't necessary today's game though.  Hard to change my thoughts on this though.

Edited April 12, 2022 by IowaHoosierFan

[btownqb]

2 minutes ago, Hoosier51 said:

You're confusing me with someone else because I never once said you could. I clearly showed that you don't need a DEEP BENCH ROTATION to win.

You still have to have depth to get to that point. I wasn't confusing you with anyone. 

Kansas played 9 dudes 9 mins or more a game. 

[Hoosier51]

Just now, btownqb said:

You still have to have depth to get to that point. I wasn't confusing you with anyone. 

Kansas played 9 dudes 9 mins or more a game. 

Actually you were, because show me anywhere that I said you can win with 7 players. I will be waiting.

[btownqb]

2 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

That is about as true or provable as saying we can win more by only playing 7.  We have no idea because we never did it. 

And i don't have a problem giving starters a breather.  I just don't think at any given time should your best 3 players, when you only have 3 really good players, should be on the bench at the same time, unless you are really controlling the game or getting it handed to you.

With that said, i understand that my way of thinking doesn't align with yours or some others and unfortunately aligns with IUScott which makes me want to change my opinion lol, just kidding IUScott  .  I am probably colored by watching 80-90s IU basketball where knight played his starters for such long times.  I am aware that isn't necessary today's game though.  Hard to change my thoughts on this though.

Kansas played 9 guys on avg 9 mins or more for the entire year. They didn't just roll with 7 for 40 games. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

2 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Kansas played 9 guys on avg 9 mins or more for the entire year. They didn't just roll with 7 for 40 games. 

didn't say they did.  How many times did they have all of their starters in the bench or their best 3 on the bench at the same time for extended period of time?  I bet not often

Edited April 12, 2022 by IowaHoosierFan

[Hoosier51]

Kansas players are going to get a nice profit off their title run.

Kansas men's basketball players set to profit off Jayhawks' 'Barnstorming Tour' (espn.com)

[btownqb]

Just now, IowaHoosierFan said:

didn't say they did.  How many times did they have all of their starters in the bench or their best 3 on the bench at the same time for extended period of time?

Which we never did either, but I'm not sure. 

And ours would have happened a heckuva lot less if XJ had stayed out of foul trouble more often. 

[NCHoosier32]

7 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

That is about as true or provable as saying we can win more by only playing 7.  We have no idea because we never did it. 

And i don't have a problem giving starters a breather.  I just don't think at any given time should your best 3 players, when you only have 3 really good players, should be on the bench at the same time, unless you are really controlling the game or getting it handed to you.

With that said, i understand that my way of thinking doesn't align with yours or some others and unfortunately aligns with IUScott which makes me want to change my opinion lol, just kidding IUScott  .  I am probably colored by watching 80-90s IU basketball where knight played his starters for such long times.  I am aware that isn't necessary today's game though.  Hard to change my thoughts on this though.

so hard to find yourself agreeing with either of them isn't it?

[5fouls]

28 minutes ago, btownqb said:

If you are a D1 basketball coach, youre pretty much a great basketball mind. 

Patrick Ewing says hello.  

[IowaHoosierFan]

3 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

so hard to find yourself agreeing with either of them isn't it?

So very hard, so many posts i just don't respond to because it's just not worth it lol 🤪

[IowaHoosierFan]

Just now, 5fouls said:

Patrick Ewing says hello.  

I would say he has a great basketball mind, maybe just not a great coaching mind

[btownqb]

@IowaHoosierFan but ultimately, Woodson valued cohesion in the 2nd unit(more of them playing regularly together)...then he did having XJ or RT on the court. 

[NCHoosier32]

2 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

So very hard, so many posts i just don't respond to because it's just not worth it lol 🤪

amen brutha.  tough when they dominate the board.