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Can NIL solve an Oversign issue?


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2 hours ago, Purdue7 said:

Not sure the ncaa knows the rules 

 

serious question:  will the ncaa exist in 5-10 years?  It’s basically semi-pro basketball already.  

The NCAA "rules" were pretty simple:

1) If the state has passed NIL laws, follow those.

2) If the state doesn't have NIL laws, make your own policy.

3) No cheating! And you can't use it for recruiting (but we're not going to enforce that).

So of course all the states that had passed NIL laws have since amended them to be less restrictive, especially in SEC country,

The NCAA as we know it is a lame duck but there will be something to replace it. Probably with a CEO....

Edited by BruceDouglas
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Honest question:  Is there a point when IU has a pipeline to these mega prep schools where they lose the local kids who dreamed of wearing the 🍭💈👖 ?  

Purdue had no transfers in last year and one senior leave.  Will this ever happen again for a P5 school ?
 

 

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46 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Player A and Player B both get a $50,000 NIL deal.  Player A has a scholly.  Player B does not.  

Which player is likely to be happier with their situation?

Would player B sacrifice $50k to play on a potential final 4 team?

A kid like Dennis. Opportunity to play for Woodson (NBA connections) and a very good IU team may just take the NIL money as his scholarship just for his last run in college hoops.  Like they say, you have the rest of your life to make money - not many better situations than IU right now - assuming you’re still playing for free one way or another. 

Edited by Bustout
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I see LOTS of painting with broad brushes when talking about NIL deals.

I think it's a stretch to simply assume every player that comes in automatically gets an NIL deal, let alone a high figure one. Local businesses need to see value in the player they are partnering with, and even then, it doesn't mean it's an automatic 5 or 6-figure deal.

NOW, a school like IU can certainly sell their ability to showcase & position players for representation better than others *ahem Purdon't**ahem, but the players need to present their value through their play and personality at large.

[I'm not naive here either. Of course a booster (read: Used Car Salesman) could offer up a deal simply for having a player pick their school, but even those kind of deals can shift as the wind blows.]

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3 hours ago, Purdue7 said:

Honest question:  Is there a point when IU has a pipeline to these mega prep schools where they lose the local kids who dreamed of wearing the 🍭💈👖 ?  

Purdue had no transfers in last year and one senior leave.  Will this ever happen again for a P5 school ?
 

 

It would be an honor again to play at IU maybe. I mean UK never brings in Kentucky HS kids and they’ve done just fine…same for KU and NC/Duke. If anything the local kids have been bad for IU as I think they use IU as how it raises their status instead of working hard to raise a banner.

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I don't think it's a terribly far fetched idea.  Basically Dolson and the NIL team have contingency plans as well.   

A simply conversation with each player on the back half of the roster could sound like this.  "So right now you are making about 10k in nil.  We have a company willing to drop a 50k deal for a end of bench player to cover tuition room and board expenses in the event we have a scholarship crunch.  It's more than enough to cover expenses, taxes, stipend, and spending money.  How would you and your family feel about something like that?  Talk it over with them and the nil lawyers can answer any questions." 

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17 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

I don't think it's a terribly far fetched idea.  Basically Dolson and the NIL team have contingency plans as well.   

A simply conversation with each player on the back half of the roster could sound like this.  "So right now you are making about 10k in nil.  We have a company willing to drop a 50k deal for a end of bench player to cover tuition room and board expenses in the event we have a scholarship crunch.  It's more than enough to cover expenses, taxes, stipend, and spending money.  How would you and your family feel about something like that?  Talk it over with them and the nil lawyers can answer any questions." 

As a player, my response would be something like, "wait, you have a $50K NIL deal that you sourced for me and you've been sitting on it? I only get it in the event that there is a scholarship crunch and I have to give up my scholarship to get it? If the company really wants to work with me, why don't they work with me now and pay me while I'm on scholarship?"

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18 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

I don't think it's a terribly far fetched idea.  Basically Dolson and the NIL team have contingency plans as well.   

A simply conversation with each player on the back half of the roster could sound like this.  "So right now you are making about 10k in nil.  We have a company willing to drop a 50k deal for a end of bench player to cover tuition room and board expenses in the event we have a scholarship crunch.  It's more than enough to cover expenses, taxes, stipend, and spending money.  How would you and your family feel about something like that?  Talk it over with them and the nil lawyers can answer any questions." 

Yes, I have brought this up on a few occasions and mostly got shot down.  I think people have it a bit twisted on how this would work out.  For one, I think your $10k figure for a guy like Leal or Duncomb (at the moment) is a little high.  Probably cut that in about half if I had to guess.  From there it is all economics.  

Based on money alone, I approach Leal.  He is in state tuition so it would be cheaper than Duncomb.  $135,766 is the value of a four year scholarship for an instate athlete at IU (this is based on 2014 numbers so probably closer to 150,000 now but I am just going by what I could find).  It is roughly $100,000 more for out of state.

https://iuhoosiers.com/news/2014/10/1/IU_Quantifies_the_Full_Value_of_an_Athletics_Scholarship#:~:text=For an out of state,room and board%2C and books.

So to break that down it is roughly $34,000 (based on numbers in link above) to $37,500 (based on wild ass guess as to what it is now) in scholarship value a year.  Add in the $5,000 to $10,000 in NIL (and I still say that $10k is probably high) and you are coming in below $50,000.

You just do a deal or group of deals to make sure that a guy is not paying out of pocket.  It is a one year deal for special circumstances and then you give him the scholarship back...or don't and you keep getting him the deal.  At the end of the day the only reason to not want to take that is pride.

How many Indiana kids would be willing to come and try what it is like to be in a high D1 program?  We get you a $30k NIL deal to do charity work, you come and put some time in on the team, you and coaches can evaluate your chance to earn playing time down the road and it is of little cost to you.  Why not have something like that available?

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9 minutes ago, BGleas said:

As a player, my response would be something like, "wait, you have a $50K NIL deal that you sourced for me and you've been sitting on it? I only get it in the event that there is a scholarship crunch and I have to give up my scholarship to get it? If the company really wants to work with me, why don't they work with me now and pay me while I'm on scholarship?"

Because that company values you as part of the team and doesn't want to be in the spot where the team has to choose between 2 players.  And let's be real end of the bench guy, if the choice is you and pre-season All American candidate, you are going to be looking to transfer to a place that is very likely not a high D1 program.

That is harsh as heck, but don't ask questions you don't want the answer to.  This is not amateur ball anymore.  It is some mutated hybrid of the pros and college ball.

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6 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Because that company values you as part of the team and doesn't want to be in the spot where the team has to choose between 2 players.  And let's be real end of the bench guy, if the choice is you and pre-season All American candidate, you are going to be looking to transfer to a place that is very likely not a high D1 program.

That is harsh as heck, but don't ask questions you don't want the answer to.  This is not amateur ball anymore.  It is some mutated hybrid of the pros and college ball.

So, let's be clear here. If your employer came to you and said that a big part of your guaranteed salary is going to be turned into some performance based compensation, something that could be pulled away on the whim of the employer, so that more money could be devoted to hiring new talent, you'd be okay with that?

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4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

As a player, my response would be something like, "wait, you have a $50K NIL deal that you sourced for me and you've been sitting on it? I only get it in the event that there is a scholarship crunch and I have to give up my scholarship to get it? If the company really wants to work with me, why don't they work with me now and pay me while I'm on scholarship?"

I'd think the person or company willing to pony up money for this kinda deal isn't really looking to get a player spokesperson.  They're doing it to benefit the team.   They want their team to win.   

Now if other schools are having better NLI deals for players they would be the same people stepping up.

Go Hoosiers!!!

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5 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

So, let's be clear here. If your employer came to you and said that a big part of your guaranteed salary is going to be turned into some performance based compensation, something that could be pulled away on the whim of the employer, so that more money could be devoted to hiring new talent, you'd be okay with that?

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m in enterprise software sales and I promise you that I’m far from unique in my willingness to walk away from a situation when you start messing around with my money. 

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19 minutes ago, BGleas said:

As a player, my response would be something like, "wait, you have a $50K NIL deal that you sourced for me and you've been sitting on it? I only get it in the event that there is a scholarship crunch and I have to give up my scholarship to get it? If the company really wants to work with me, why don't they work with me now and pay me while I'm on scholarship?"

Simple.  It's nothing personal.  These are contingency dollars for any player on the roster only to be used if there's a scholarship issue.  We don't want any player to leave, so we set aside these dollars for the sole purpose of giving the program roster flexibility. 

...and no need to pick on the end of bench player.  That offer can be made to any player on scholarship. I'd tend to offer it to a player on his last year of eligibility.

These are not really advertising dollars.  They are simply funds spent in support of the program that have a small advertising element to them for tax deduction purposes.  I'm sure the only thing that's held companies back from doing this before we're those pesky rules.

It's just a matter of time until stuff like this starts happening. 

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The NIL seems destined to blow up at some point. Big programs with deep pocket donors will eventually make it untenable. Then what? Salary cap? And where is title 9 in all this? Will a young lady on the tennis team need a Porsche and million dollars to prevent her from suing everyone? 

The NCAA lost control and there is no getting the tooth paste back in the tube. The days of the NCAA as an institution seem destined to end in a fiery legal barrage. Then NCAA basketball as we know it will end. Where there is no vision, the people perish.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, BGleas said:

As a player, my response would be something like, "wait, you have a $50K NIL deal that you sourced for me and you've been sitting on it? I only get it in the event that there is a scholarship crunch and I have to give up my scholarship to get it? If the company really wants to work with me, why don't they work with me now and pay me while I'm on scholarship?"

"Because  they, like I want to keep you on the team and seeing you being a vital part to the future and multiple deep championship runs.  No disrespect, you are making 10k this year.  When we hang banners you will make more for sure but its what the market is today.  

No reason to get your panties in a wad." (Nah I'd leave that out)

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53 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

So, let's be clear here. If your employer came to you and said that a big part of your guaranteed salary is going to be turned into some performance based compensation, something that could be pulled away on the whim of the employer, so that more money could be devoted to hiring new talent, you'd be okay with that?

A known short term employer that was going to be kicking me out the door in 4 to 5 years no matter what?  Sure.  All these guys are on borrowed time.  For a guy on the end of the bench though, that is not what this is, it is getting his school paid.  So let's keep the scenario the same.  I am part of a research team as an undergrad.  The research team is a pretty big deal and as part of that team, I am likely to have all sorts of connections that will help me get a job after school.  The head of the program comes and tells me that they found a way to keep the most important piece of the team on for another year but they need to get them a scholarship to keep them here.  They have found a way to pay for my school through investors, but it is not an official scholarship.  They promise to give me the scholarship back next school year.  They can understand my uneasiness with that, but the alternative is to yank the scholarship altogether and probably push me out of the program because the resources won't be there to keep me officially...and officially that guy/girl is more important to the success of the team than me.

Personally, in that similar scenario, I take the money.  School is still getting paid for and connection to a top research team is more important than a scholarship at a tier 2 research university.

Let me make it more simple, you are Woodson and you are trying to put together a winner right now.  You pull another guy from the portal thinking he will improve your team now and TJD is not coming back.  TJD changes his mind.  What do you think happens in that situation?  Guy at the end of the bench is in the transfer portal the next day.  If I am guy at end of bench and IU is where I really want to be, please give me that NIL deal so I am not forced to transfer to some MAC school.

Edited by IUCrazy2
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57 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m in enterprise software sales and I promise you that I’m far from unique in my willingness to walk away from a situation when you start messing around with my money. 

Sure, but this isn't an apples to apples comparison.  All that money you are making is solely connected to being where you are.  The NIL benefit of being at Indiana does not move with you if you are off the team and end up at Ball State.

This isn't even messing with your money, it is the company funding your salary in a different manner.  Who are you to tell your employer what funds they can pull your salary from? 

Also, as you said, if you are not a fan of what is happening, there is the door.  Really harsh lessons for some of these guys to learn but remember, it was student athletes who felt they should be able to get paid.  Nobody at your business gives a sh*t about your feelings, they care about the bottom line.  If messing with your money a little bit means adding an asset that will mean more to the bottom line, you're out of luck.

The student athletes messed up a bit IMO.  The vast majority of D1 athletes are not worth much through NIL outside of alumni wanting to keep a team together.  And guy 10-13 on a bench is a dime a dozen.  Most athletes gave up their security so that the Top 25 players each year could cash in.  Unintended consequences.

Edited by IUCrazy2
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4 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Are there different rules a scholarship player has to abide vs a walk on? Don't walk ons also get limited access to certain resources? 

I’m fairly certain this is the case, yes.

Theres also a big difference in this pitch when asking someone to join the program (and it’s illegal to make then) and asking a player to give up a scholarship. Very few people take having their employment status and earnings messed with very well. 

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16 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

A known short term employer that was going to be kicking me out the door in 4 to 5 years no matter what?  Sure.  All these guys are on borrowed time.  For a guy on the end of the bench though, that is not what this is, it is getting his school paid.  So let's keep the scenario the same.  I am part of a research team as an undergrad.  The research team is a pretty big deal and as part of that team, I am likely to have all sorts of connections that will help me get a job after school.  The head of the program comes and tells me that they found a way to keep the most important piece of the team on for another year but they need to get them a scholarship to keep them here.  They have found a way to pay for my school through investors, but it is not an official scholarship.  They promise to give me the scholarship back next school year.  They can understand my uneasiness with that, but the alternative is to yank the scholarship altogether and probably push me out of the program because the resources won't be there to keep me officially...and officially that guy/girl is more important to the success of the team than me.

Personally, in that similar scenario, I take the money.  School is still getting paid for and connection to a top research team is more important than a scholarship at a tier 2 research university.

Let me make it more simple, you are Woodson and you are trying to put together a winner right now.  You pull another guy from the portal thinking he will improve your team now and TJD is not coming back.  TJD changes his mind.  What do you think happens in that situation?  Guy at the end of the bench is in the transfer portal the next day.  If I am guy at end of bench and IU is where I really want to be, please give me that NIL deal so I am not forced to transfer to some MAC school.

So, what happens when the guy who is the most important piece becomes expendable? How hard does it become to recruit new people when the reputation is out there that your spot isn't really all that safe. Like you said, unintended consequences.

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