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Can NIL solve an Oversign issue?


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50 minutes ago, Euroclydon said:

The NIL seems destined to blow up at some point. Big programs with deep pocket donors will eventually make it untenable. Then what? Salary cap? And where is title 9 in all this? Will a young lady on the tennis team need a Porsche and million dollars to prevent her from suing everyone? 

The NCAA lost control and there is no getting the tooth paste back in the tube. The days of the NCAA as an institution seem destined to end in a fiery legal barrage. Then NCAA basketball as we know it will end. Where there is no vision, the people perish.

 

 

The NCAA couldn’t enforce any cheating rules consistently to save their lives, so NIL basically was a gateway for them not to have an enforcement department - and pay kids.  

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15 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Sure, but this isn't an apples to apples comparison.  All that money you are making is solely connected to being where you are.  The NIL benefit of being at Indiana does not move with you if you are off the team and end up at Ball State.

This isn't even messing with your money, it is the company funding your salary in a different manner.  Who are you to tell your employer what funds they can pull your salary from? 

Also, as you said, if you are not a fan of what is happening, there is the door.  Really harsh lessons for some of these guys to learn but remember, it was student athletes who felt they should be able to get paid.  Nobody at your business gives a sh*t about your feelings, they care about the bottom line.  If messing with your money a little bit means adding an asset that will mean more to the bottom line, you're out of luck.

The student athletes messed up a bit IMO.  The vast majority of D1 athletes are not worth much through NIL outside of alumni wanting to keep a team together.  And guy 10-13 on a bench is a dime a dozen.  Most athletes gave up their security so that the Top 25 players each year could cash in.  Unintended consequences.

Certain schools, just like certain companies, can absolutely take that mindset that the value comes from them as the institution, and not from the individuals (employees or players). And that very well may work in some cases.

But I think what we are seeing with the transfer portal, just like the Great Resignation, says that doesn't work in a lot of situations. Other players pay attention to how you treat their teammates, too. As @Steubenhoosieralluded to, there are unintended consequences for the approach some of you are advocating for. 

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10 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

So, what happens when the guy who is the most important piece becomes expendable? How hard does it become to recruit new people when the reputation is out there that your spot isn't really all that safe. Like you said, unintended consequences.

Look around, they are all expendable and always have been.  Every coach will selectively push guys off the team when things aren't "working out".  Every.  Coach.  All that this does is make it so you maybe don't have to force a guy out whose only transgression was not developing quick enough to keep a scholarship.  In the old days, they got asked to leave.  Now there is perhaps a way to avoid that.

And I am more than happy to talk to a HS or AAU coach about this.  "Hey, I thought that player had value and wanted to keep him on board.  I also have to balance winning to keep my job.  I found a way to make sure he stayed on the team and still had his school completely paid for."  Isn't that an easier convo then, "Dude not cutting it so I had to cut him"?

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1 hour ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Because that company values you as part of the team and doesn't want to be in the spot where the team has to choose between 2 players.  And let's be real end of the bench guy, if the choice is you and pre-season All American candidate, you are going to be looking to transfer to a place that is very likely not a high D1 program.

That is harsh as heck, but don't ask questions you don't want the answer to.  This is not amateur ball anymore.  It is some mutated hybrid of the pros and college ball.

Most schools have about 17-18 kids anyway correct?  With 13 scholarships.   
 

Instead of Creaning someone, this NIL could be used to attract the two kids visiting this week and get them on the roster.   
 

As someone mentioned earlier, the COVID season has caused a crunch at a lot of schools and 14 scholarships would’ve been a good resolution for a year or two … but that would be asking the NCAA to do something right.  

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4 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Certain schools, just like certain companies, can absolutely take that mindset that the value comes from them as the institution, and not from the individuals (employees or players). And that very well may work in some cases.

But I think what we are seeing with the transfer portal, just like the Great Resignation, says that doesn't work in a lot of situations. Other players pay attention to how you treat their teammates, too. As @Steubenhoosieralluded to, there are unintended consequences for the approach some of you are advocating for. 

See my response to him.  Guys get forced out for this stuff all the time.  "They just were not a fit...."  Yeah, the not a fit guys that are almost always down the bench dudes who barely play.  We had a bunch of talk on the forum about tough conversations with guys in the offseason about their likelihood of being able to play.  In the past you just forced dudes out to make room with those "tough conversations".  Using NIL in the manner I described allows the kid to not have to transfer, stay on the team, and get that scholarship back.  In the past it was "peace, we wish you well on your future endeavors" as if that is more altruistic.

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2 minutes ago, Bustout said:

Most schools have about 17-18 kids anyway correct?  With 13 scholarships.   
 

Instead of Creaning someone, this NIL could be used to attract the two kids visiting this week and get them on the roster.   
 

As someone mentioned earlier, the COVID season has caused a crunch at a lot of schools and 14 scholarships would’ve been a good resolution for a year or two … but that would be asking the NCAA to do something right.  

Yeah, either way it is telling a guy that you don't have a scholarship for them.  I think that is an easier sell with someone on the team then someone who isn't.

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3 minutes ago, Bustout said:

Most schools have about 17-18 kids anyway correct?  With 13 scholarships.   
 

Instead of Creaning someone, this NIL could be used to attract the two kids visiting this week and get them on the roster.   
 

As someone mentioned earlier, the COVID season has caused a crunch at a lot of schools and 14 scholarships would’ve been a good resolution for a year or two … but that would be asking the NCAA to do something right.  

At this point, I think it's just called transferring, since the entire country is having kids leave at a much higher rate then Crean ever did. 

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8 minutes ago, btownqb said:

At this point, I think it's just called transferring, since the entire country is having kids leave at a much higher rate then Crean ever did. 

I think Creaning is more about oversigning with little clue how to manage a roster and fabricate a story that your player cheated on a summer school test …. (I think that’s how story goes)

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10 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Yeah, either way it is telling a guy that you don't have a scholarship for them.  I think that is an easier sell with someone on the team then someone who isn't.

Agree. And the extra COVID year didn’t help that.   
 

This upcoming year, specifically given IUs situation, is unique.  They very well could make a F4 run with some roster tinkering.  These two new kids could certainly contribute too … so it’s a bit of an easier sell - than say L$U who had 13 open scholarships!

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2 minutes ago, btownqb said:

We don't have an oversign ... 

But yeah, just transferring. It's a huge part of college athletics now. There was an entire women's team that was just "creaned", I guess. 

I hear you - no oversign right now, but two kids are being actively recruited that would create one.   

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2 minutes ago, Bustout said:

I hear you - no oversign right now, but two kids are being actively recruited that would create one.   

I don't see it as a problem. I didn't see it as one under Crean, either. 

Regardless, we aren't going to be over-signed this off season. I'm confident in that. 

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5 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I don't see it as a problem. I didn't see it as one under Crean, either. 

Regardless, we aren't going to be over-signed this off season. I'm confident in that. 

Which means either TJD is staying in the draft or we have a player or two who is still planning on leaving but has not announced yet....or someone who is going to be leaving and doesn't know it yet.

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2 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Which means either TJD is staying in the draft or we have a player or two who is still planning on leaving but has not announced yet....or someone who is going to be leaving and doesn't know it yet.

Bingo.  

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5 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Which means either TJD is staying in the draft or we have a player or two who is still planning on leaving but has not announced yet....or someone who is going to be leaving and doesn't know it yet.

I agree. 

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3 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Which means either TJD is staying in the draft or we have a player or two who is still planning on leaving but has not announced yet....or someone who is going to be leaving and doesn't know it yet.

I highly doubt that this is the case. I'll also eat my foot if TJD uses his NIL money to pay his own tuition. It's one of the former points you bring up.

For the most part our minds are running wild. The staff knows exactly what is going on. That's their job. The players know what is going on. The staff is not going to lose the trust of the players and let this unravel into a message board-like frenzy within the team. 

I really think fans are getting worked up because we're not in on the plan. And we don't need to be. Everything is going to play out just fine. 

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2 hours ago, Euroclydon said:

The NIL seems destined to blow up at some point. Big programs with deep pocket donors will eventually make it untenable. Then what? Salary cap? And where is title 9 in all this? Will a young lady on the tennis team need a Porsche and million dollars to prevent her from suing everyone? 

The NCAA lost control and there is no getting the tooth paste back in the tube. The days of the NCAA as an institution seem destined to end in a fiery legal barrage. Then NCAA basketball as we know it will end. Where there is no vision, the people perish.

Of course it will.  As several have mentioned here (myself included), NIL will eventually make today's college athletics unrecognizable.  Eventually, scholarships and attending classes probably go away too.  The tube of toothpaste analogy is accurate here.  Once the door opened to paying players, college athletics as we know it entered a death spiral.

Who knows...it may become an even better product than what we've had, but the day players got paid, the NCAA officially lost control.  It's just a matter of time until we see the end product.

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20 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I highly doubt that this is the case. I'll also eat my foot if TJD uses his NIL money to pay his own tuition. It's one of the former points you bring up.

For the most part our minds are running wild. The staff knows exactly what is going on. That's their job. The players know what is going on. The staff is not going to lose the trust of the players and let this unravel into a message board-like frenzy within the team. 

I really think fans are getting worked up because we're not in on the plan. And we don't need to be. Everything is going to play out just fine. 

To be clear, I am not worked up.  Recruiting is going well.  TJD sticking around for another year makes the likelihood of a good year next year higher, but it is not out of the question if he stays in the draft either.

I am using current players and events to discuss the idea at large though.  Could the NIL give you more defacto scholarships that could be used to obtain or keep guys who are 4 year dudes who may turn into a guy who will help your program win down the line, even though they are not able to now?  That is the thrust of my point.

Like Lander, if there was any thought that by senior year this guy could be a pretty nice contributor, instead of him leaving do you convince him to stay as a non scholarship guy but get his expenses covered?  Or that big kid Sparks from Ball State.  Maybe preferred walk on in the future means you don't have a scholarship but we got these NIL deals that will cover your expenses.  Does that allow a school to take a chance on some guys who need to develop?  Does it cut down on the transfer craziness?  

I think the idea has merit.  Is there the potential for hurt feelings?  Sure, but I think some of those could be inevitable anyways in these situations.  "People will never go for it..."  How do you know if you don't try?  It's the Wild Wild West right now.  We finally have a chance to really compete because the stuff the other blue bloods used to do that we shied away from is completely legal.  Lean all in while we can before they start pulling back on the reins.  Getting Indiana back as a big name who is winning games is important while the rules are lax.  It will be easier to retain position then to have to try and make up more ground when/if they try and rein some of this back in.

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6 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

To be clear, I am not worked up.  Recruiting is going well.  TJD sticking around for another year makes the likelihood of a good year next year higher, but it is not out of the question if he stays in the draft either.

I am using current players and events to discuss the idea at large though.  Could the NIL give you more defacto scholarships that could be used to obtain or keep guys who are 4 year dudes who may turn into a guy who will help your program win down the line, even though they are not able to now?  That is the thrust of my point.

Like Lander, if there was any thought that by senior year this guy could be a pretty nice contributor, instead of him leaving do you convince him to stay as a non scholarship guy but get his expenses covered?  Or that big kid Sparks from Ball State.  Maybe preferred walk on in the future means you don't have a scholarship but we got these NIL deals that will cover your expenses.  Does that allow a school to take a chance on some guys who need to develop?  Does it cut down on the transfer craziness?  

I think the idea has merit.  Is there the potential for hurt feelings?  Sure, but I think some of those could be inevitable anyways in these situations.  "People will never go for it..."  How do you know if you don't try?  It's the Wild Wild West right now.  We finally have a chance to really compete because the stuff the other blue bloods used to do that we shied away from is completely legal.  Lean all in while we can before they start pulling back on the reins.  Getting Indiana back as a big name who is winning games is important while the rules are lax.  It will be easier to retain position then to have to try and make up more ground when/if they try and rein some of this back in.

I just mean in general we are over-reacting - there's a lot of posts about the finality of the roster. 

I agree that the NIL is going to be used as an incentive for guys who need to develop to stay put.

I'm not so sure that it will be used as a way to pay tuition as a preferred walk on because there's only one rule right now: NIL money can't not be contingent on a player attending a specific school. This falls into quite the grey area because If the parameters of the hypothetical agreement are to use the money on tuition, then the player could use it on tuition anywhere, at any school. There could be no contract in adherence with the NIL rules that says 'Player X must use this money for tuition at School X'. 

It may only takes a few kids to take the money and run before this strategy of having paid walk-ons could fizzle out. And I'm not sure having huge rosters would effect most schools in a positive way. Ultimately, playing time will trump $5k-$10k of NIL money for those players delegated to the end of the bench, especially if there's no penalty to transfer.

Hey, I could definitely be wrong. But there are so many angles I don't think we've even thought of. 

 

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59 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I highly doubt that this is the case. I'll also eat my foot if TJD uses his NIL money to pay his own tuition. It's one of the former points you bring up.

For the most part our minds are running wild. The staff knows exactly what is going on. That's their job. The players know what is going on. The staff is not going to lose the trust of the players and let this unravel into a message board-like frenzy within the team. 

I really think fans are getting worked up because we're not in on the plan. And we don't need to be. Everything is going to play out just fine. 

Wait, you mean they're not going to pull straws to see who has to leave if they land another player? Insanity.

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9 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I just mean in general we are over-reacting - there's a lot of posts about the finality of the roster. 

I agree that the NIL is going to be used as an incentive for guys who need to develop to stay put.

I'm not so sure that it will be used as a way to pay tuition as a preferred walk on because there's only one rule right now: NIL money can't not be contingent on a player attending a specific school. This falls into quite the grey area because If the parameters of the hypothetical agreement are to use the money on tuition, then the player could use it on tuition anywhere, at any school. There could be no contract in adherence with the NIL rules that says 'Player X must use this money for tuition at School X'. 

It may only takes a few kids to take the money and run before this strategy of having paid walk-ons could fizzle out. And I'm not sure having huge rosters would effect most schools in a positive way. Ultimately, playing time will trump $5k-$10k of NIL money for those players delegated to the end of the bench, especially if there's no penalty to transfer.

Hey, I could definitely be wrong. But there are so many angles I don't think we've even thought of. 

 

It would be very easy to set these up as separate monthly contracts that dry up if the player leaves. At the end of the day, this isn't going to be a big deal. There are plenty of coaches that don't usually use their 13 scholarships, I don't see much value in going beyond 13 on a regular basis. There might be the occasional guy that it makes sense for, but there aren't 14 balls on the court, so this won't get used much. I could see it being a bigger deal in football, though.

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This is a great topic and a great discussion.  Everyone is making good points, arguments and counterarguments, and I've found this discussion infinitely more interesting than 956 guesses about what IU's starting lineup will look like next season.  Me, every time that subject comes up:

image.gif.fbbd5cb94ec3e606d764958ed54c6885.gif

I think as it stands today, the NIL will be absolutely used and abused and I'm not convinced that the NCAA will be able to rein it in.  In fact, I'd guess that the NCAA will be mostly impotent when it comes to schools finding ways to creatively attract and pay players.

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