MSU is in trouble

[cybergates]

12 hours ago, Jerry Lundergaard said:

I think he knew at some point before things were made public. However, these guys are going to circle the wagons. If he doesn't stay loyal to Izzo, not only will he not keep his job at MSU, but he'll also gain the label of being untrustworthy. Hard to find work with that hanging around your neck.

Don't like or agree with any of this but the only way Fife has a future is to deny, deny, deny.

Interesting take, but I would think that if he came out and said when I found about these reports I was disgusted and no longer want to be a part of any of this and resigned he would be lauded and if he's a good coach then he would find work again. It doesn't have to be about being loyal to Izzo and by extension MSU, it can be about having high moral character. He can praise Izzo the coach and even defend him if he has a basis to do so on the way out the door.

Obviously he didn't/won't do that, nor would most in this type of situation, but it is a choice that can be made. I think the "character" of college basketball in general being so shady and untruthful in the recruiting world, probably puts these coaches in a place where they are lying so often that lying becomes so natural that they lie about much worse things like this before they even know they're doing it and if they take time to reflect afterwards may have wished they had approached it another way.

[Hoosierhoopster]

9 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

You're right, there are no facts that show Fife knew anything. But you also have to acknowledge there are no facts that support him not knowing. No one is talking about throwing Fife in jail, it's fine to look at the circumstantial evidence and draw a conclusion. I'd be curious to understand, other than a lack of information, either way, what about this situation makes you think Fife didn't know about the issues at some point? Or if you think he knew after that happened, why is it okay in your mind that he did nothing with the information? 

KoB -- Look up in this thread! I just went through the info that is alleged, the (dirty) U's response, and the info from the police.

This is all about assuming, and then saying I'm "naive" for not assuming he knew the information that, again, per the allegations, the police and the U, does not reflect Fife knew anything. What is alleged, and what is pure speculation, is entirely different.

[Hoosierhoopster]

21 minutes ago, btownqb said:

That's fine you feel that way. If Fife wasn't an IU guy you would have a different tone on this subject. The entire MSU staff knew of what went on that night, or had a pretty good idea. 

It's not what I feel, it's what information is out there. 

I was kind of hoping you'd be big enough to acknowledge that, on the actual reported information, and her own allegations, it's really not fair to say someone is "naive" not to assume he knew. 

Instead, you just keep saying, with no information to back it up, whatsoever, that the entire MSU staff knew of what went on that night.

As should be obvious, it is possible that the staff was informed at some point, but there is simply nothing to show that now. If that changes, then it changes. But you are assuming, and no, I'm not "naive." 

[milehiiu]

There was at least one member of the staff that knew what went on that night. In FACT he was part of the rape. On top of all of that, he was living in Izzo's house.

Travis Walton reportedly lived in Tom Izzo's basement while serving as Michigan State assistant

[Hoosierhoopster]

23 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I simply think someone who believes an asst coach who didn't know ANYTHING about these incidents is being naive. If you take that personally, I'm sorry.. that wasn't my intention. 

Oh good grief. 

1) You said it was naive to think Fife didn't know about the alleged rape of this woman-- not "these incidents" whatever that means.

2) I pointed out in great detail for you, the reported information, her own allegations as made in the filed papers, the U's response, and the reports from the police. All of which tends to reflect that the "counselors" she reported this awful crime to buried it, and all of which tends to indicate nothing was passed on to the basketball program. What we're talking here is facts, as opposed to assumption. I don't make assumptions where the facts are to the contrary. If you feel the facts are irrelevant, great, but saying others are don't are naive is just silly. No, I don't take this personally, I just think it's ridiculous, and in bad form, to go about calling people naive when you have no facts.

And for the hundredth time, this situation is horrible, I tend to believe her, and if her allegations are in fact true, as appears very likely to me, I hope the former players involved are prosecuted.

[btownqb]

9 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

It's not what I feel, it's what information is out there. 

I was kind of hoping you'd be big enough to acknowledge that, on the actual reported information, and her own allegations, it's really not fair to say someone is "naive" not to assume he knew. 

Instead, you just keep saying, with no information to back it up, whatsoever, that the entire MSU staff knew of what went on that night.

As should be obvious, it is possible that the staff was informed at some point, but there is simply nothing to show that now. If that changes, then it changes. But you are assuming, and no, I'm not "naive." 

I have not once used the term "no information to back it up". You are taking this entirely too personal.

Why in the world would MSU have it on record when their basketball staff found out about the rapes? Do you know how incriminating that would be... since they obviously all took the stance that they weren't going to say anything in the first place, why would they just record when they found out about this incident. That makes no sense? 

I think you are naive to believe a MSU asst coach didn't know of this stuff. I mean I have been thought of as naive before? I'm not calling you a leopard. Geeesh. 

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Oh good grief. 

1) You said it was naive to think Fife didn't know about the alleged rape of this woman-- not "these incidents" whatever that means.

2) I pointed out in great detail for you, the reported information, her own allegations as made in the filed papers, the U's response, and the reports from the police. All of which tends to reflect that the "counselors" she reported this awful crime to buried it, and all of which tends to indicate nothing was passed on to the basketball program. What we're talking here is facts, as opposed to assumption. I don't make assumptions where the facts are to the contrary. If you feel the facts are irrelevant, great, but saying others are don't are naive is just silly. No, I don't take this personally, I just think it's ridiculous, and in bad form, to go about calling people naive when you have no facts.

And for the hundredth time, this situation is horrible, I tend to believe her, and if her allegations are in fact true, as appears very likely to me, I hope the former players involved are prosecuted.

You have taken this incredibly personal. 

[KoB2011]

6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

KoB -- Look up in this thread! I just went through the info that is alleged, the (dirty) U's response, and the info from the police.

This is all about assuming, and then saying I'm "naive" for not assuming he knew the information that, again, per the allegations, the police and the U, does not reflect Fife knew anything. What is alleged, and what is pure speculation, is entirely different.

I've read the thread. None of that proves Fife didn't know anything, you'd have to be in his head to know the real truth there. It is extremely difficult, if not in possible, to disprove a claim about rather or not someone knew something; you know this, you're an attorney. 

Think about situations with the mob (and yes, I'm serious); they build in all types of plausible deniability into what they do to protect from criminal charges. I don't see a reason to assume that isn't what happened here, if it we can't assume that it did. 

I'm not going to get into the naive comment; I didn't make it and I like you and BTown so you I'll let you two hash that one out. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

Just now, btownqb said:

You have taken this incredibly personal. 

No, I just think you're being obnoxious and obstinate. 

[btownqb]

Sorry I am not going to believe basically anything the admin at MSU says or the police dept in East Lansing say. Why is Fife still there? bad look. 

[btownqb]

Just now, Hoosierhoopster said:

No, I just think you're being obnoxious and obstinate. 

But you aren't taking this personal, riiiiiiiight. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 minute ago, KoB2011 said:

I've read the thread. None of that proves Fife didn't know anything, you'd have to be in his head to know the real truth there. It is extremely difficult, if not in possible, to disprove a claim about rather or not someone knew something; you know this, you're an attorney. 

Think about situations with the mob (and yes, I'm serious); they build in all types of plausible deniability into what they do to protect from criminal charges. I don't see a reason to assume that isn't what happened here, if it we can't assume that it did. 

I'm not going to get into the naive comment; I didn't make it and I like you and BTown so you I'll let you two hash that one out. 

I agree none of it proves he didn't know anything. But again, none of it supports that he did, and we're talking about assumption. 

I'm going to call it a day on this (for one thing, I have actual work to do). My point is that I don't buy into assumption and then considering others naive when they don't. That's just ridiculous, and tired.

[Hoosierhoopster]

Just now, btownqb said:

But you aren't taking this personal, riiiiiiiight. 

OK that you're being obnoxious is just plain obvious. Give it a rest, man.

[btownqb]

Just now, Hoosierhoopster said:

OK that you're being obnoxious is just plain obvious. Give it a rest, man.

I haven't done a single thing wrong. 

[rico]

7 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I haven't done a single thing wrong. 

Well evidently calling HH "naive" is the wrong thing to do!!!!!!!!!  LMAO.

[Seeking6]

Kenny Johnson had to beg his way back into being an assistant at LaSalle after being at IU and Louisville. If I was Fife...I'd start thinking long but his loyalty to Izzo has him thinking short. He's going to be tied to Izzo/Michigan St as long as he's there. Probably should have left last year or two. Now he has this attached to his resume.

Whether he knew (really makes him look bad) or didn't know (makes him look inept) it really doesn't matter much. 20 years ago the plausible deniability thing worked. Not any longer. Plenty of guys in federal prison for what judges routinely say " you should have known...shame on you".

We'll see how this plays out. Fife is obviously a person we hold with great admiration. Unfortunately he's in a web right now and the only way out is just that. Get out of there and start building your career again. 

 

[milehiiu]

12 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

Kenny Johnson had to beg his way back into being an assistant at LaSalle after being at IU and Louisville. If I was Fife...I'd start thinking long but his loyalty to Izzo has him thinking short. He's going to be tied to Izzo/Michigan St as long as he's there. Probably should have left last year or two. Now he has this attached to his resume.

Whether he knew (really makes him look bad) or didn't know (makes him look inept) it really doesn't matter much. 20 years ago the plausible deniability thing worked. Not any longer. Plenty of guys in federal prison for what judges routinely say " you should have known...shame on you".

We'll see how this plays out. Fife is obviously a person we hold with great admiration. Unfortunately he's in a web right now and the only way out is just that. Get out of there and start building your career again. 

 

A very cogent post. Thank you for that.   Even the NCAA threw out the plausible deniability escape, a couple three years ago. Saying essentially what you just said. Those at the top should know what is going on in their program.... or even if they don't , they are still responsible for what goes on in their program.

When a grad assistant who is living in the HC's house is accused of rape, it is hard for me, and common sense just has to tell me that the entire staff had to know what was going on.  And in this case, Izzo continues to remain silent.  Some say on the advice of counsel.  Which in and of itself, makes it look bad for him.  Not taking the advice of council, but continuing to remain silent. Especially coming from a coach who has a decade's long history of being transparent in the media. 

[rico]

40 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

Kenny Johnson had to beg his way back into being an assistant at LaSalle after being at IU and Louisville. If I was Fife...I'd start thinking long but his loyalty to Izzo has him thinking short. He's going to be tied to Izzo/Michigan St as long as he's there. Probably should have left last year or two. Now he has this attached to his resume.

Whether he knew (really makes him look bad) or didn't know (makes him look inept) it really doesn't matter much. 20 years ago the plausible deniability thing worked. Not any longer. Plenty of guys in federal prison for what judges routinely say " you should have known...shame on you".

We'll see how this plays out. Fife is obviously a person we hold with great admiration. Unfortunately he's in a web right now and the only way out is just that. Get out of there and start building your career again. 

 

I absolutely adored Dane.  He was a player.  Loved his game.  However, I ain't gonna look through my Crimson glasses to give him a free pass.  He is in a "pickle" right now, if he doesn't realize it then shame on him.  Do the right thing.

[KoB2011]

At this point, regardless of what Fife did or didn't know, he is choosing to work for an organization that lacks an ounce of moral fiber. You're known by the company you keep, and Dane isn't keeping good company; I appreciate what he did as a player but he is not someone I would ever want to be viewed as an ambassador for IU. 

Not to go too far off topic, but, I know McRobbie really irks some people at times because he absolutely doesn't care about sports but I hope in times like this we can all appreciate that our school has a president who has his priorities straight. McRobbie was about ready to burn down the athletic department over drinking problems, let alone if something like this happened. 

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, KoB2011 said:

At this point, regardless of what Fife did or didn't know, he is choosing to work for an organization that lacks an ounce of moral fiber. You're known by the company you keep, and Dane isn't keeping good company; I appreciate what he did as a player but he is not someone I would ever want to be viewed as an ambassador for IU. 

Not to go too far off topic, but, I know McRobbie really irks some people at times because he absolutely doesn't care about sports but I hope in times like this we can all appreciate that our school has a president who has his priorities straight. McRobbie was about ready to burn down the athletic department over drinking problems, let alone if something like this happened. 

He did spit in the spittoon two years ago though!!! 

[Hoosierhoopster]

3 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

Kenny Johnson had to beg his way back into being an assistant at LaSalle after being at IU and Louisville. If I was Fife...I'd start thinking long but his loyalty to Izzo has him thinking short. He's going to be tied to Izzo/Michigan St as long as he's there. Probably should have left last year or two. Now he has this attached to his resume.

Whether he knew (really makes him look bad) or didn't know (makes him look inept) it really doesn't matter much. 20 years ago the plausible deniability thing worked. Not any longer. Plenty of guys in federal prison for what judges routinely say " you should have known...shame on you".

We'll see how this plays out. Fife is obviously a person we hold with great admiration. Unfortunately he's in a web right now and the only way out is just that. Get out of there and start building your career again. 

 

Good thoughts

[rico]

8 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Good thoughts

Hmmmm....let me ask you a hypothetical scenario HH.  Let's say you have a son that is a D1 prospect and Fife and MSU are recruiting him hard.  What is the first thing you would ask Fife as a concerned Father?  

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 hours ago, milehiiu said:

When a grad assistant who is living in the HC's house is accused of rape, it is hard for me, and common sense just has to tell me that the entire staff had to know what was going on.  And in this case, Izzo continues to remain silent.  Some say on the advice of counsel.  Which in and of itself, makes it look bad for him.  Not taking the advice of council, but continuing to remain silent. Especially coming from a coach who has a decade's long history of being transparent in the media. 

Walton's actions that I take it you're talking about happened in 2010. He was accused of raping a woman in 2010, with two players then on the team. This incident occurred in 2015, and concerned 3 then current basketball players. Unless I'm missing something, you're not following the case we were talking about. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

13 minutes ago, rico said:

Hmmmm....let me ask you a hypothetical scenario HH.  Let's say you have a son that is a D1 prospect and Fife and MSU are recruiting him hard.  What is the first thing you would ask Fife as a concerned Father?  

?? What on Earth does that have to do with my saying good thoughts to Seeking6's post, with which I obviously agreed? 

 

[rico]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

?? What on Earth does that have to do with my saying good thoughts to Seeking6's post, with which I obviously agreed? 

 

Doesn't matter why.  Answer my question.