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Let's start arguing about starting lineup again!


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2 hours ago, bluegrassIU said:

I am definitely excited with all the returning talent and top level freshman coming in.

But is anybody else concerned that we have not necessarily solved one glaring weakness?

We still do nqt have that athletic wing that can defend at a high level, and create for himself on the offensive side.

I know we expect TB to take a step forward. 

But until something is shown, I think it is our glaring weakness. Even more than perimeter shooting.

 

No, because the reality is... we weren't going from a poor shooting team to one of Creans team over night. But, the idea isn't to be the best shooting team, right? It's to be the best TEAM. Shooting will be the weakest part of our team this year, I believe... that doesn't necessarily means to has to be SUCH a detriment that it was. 

It's going to be a little bit of a process to transition out 

But, but... I am bullish on the we can 1. Flat out develop shooting, the NBA does it everyday. 

2. Just shoot more 3s lol ... Kopp's, XJs, and RTs 3pt %s late in the year were fine... shoot more of them. 

I also think JHS, TG will get us more and more easy buckets because of the constant pressure they will put on teams. They will alleviate pressure off of XJ, as well, and he won't have to have 6 TO games. 

Edited by btownqb
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I hear you guys. Yes, we have talent. But all these answers provided....none include actullay having a lengthy, athletic wing player. They provide workarounds.

It is not a must have. But I still think it is the biggest weakness at this point.

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2 hours ago, bluegrassIU said:

I hear you guys. Yes, we have talent. But all these answers provided....none include actullay having a lengthy, athletic wing player. They provide workarounds.

It is not a must have. But I still think it is the biggest weakness at this point.

There are many teams that have better shooters than we have.  Shooting is definitely a weakness.

Are there that many teams with wings that are bigger and better defenders than a guy like JHS?  

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3 hours ago, bluegrassIU said:

I hear you guys. Yes, we have talent. But all these answers provided....none include actullay having a lengthy, athletic wing player. They provide workarounds.

It is not a must have. But I still think it is the biggest weakness at this point.

I guess I would be JHS in that category even if he plays some point guard. He’s 6’5, athletic, skilled, etc. 

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Miller Kopp will likely start, but, with the talent on the team, his minutes will probably be 18-20 per game max.  Kopp, aside from his breakout game at Syracuse, was not impressive.  He does seem favored by Woodson.  Would love to see Kopp snipe coming off the bench.  Maybe he’d relax a bit more and play more confidently.  
 

My starters:

X

JHS

Tamar

Race

Trayce


top subs:

Galloway

Reneau

Geronimo

Kopp

 

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The only potential questions in my opinion are the 3 and 4.  Kopp is the best shooter on the team. His presence on the floor helps everyone else on offense due to spacing.  He will start.  Race will and should start but Geronimo will get 25+ minutes between the 3 and 4 in my opinion.

XJ

JHS

MK

RT

TJD

deep team, still short on shooting,  but very much looking forward to a great season. 

 

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24 minutes ago, Threedom said:

The only potential questions in my opinion are the 3 and 4.  Kopp is the best shooter on the team. His presence on the floor helps everyone else on offense due to spacing.  He will start.  Race will and should start but Geronimo will get 25+ minutes between the 3 and 4 in my opinion.

XJ

JHS

MK

RT

TJD

deep team, still short on shooting,  but very much looking forward to a great season. 

 

If Geronimo plays 25 mpg next year with the guys we have in front of him at the four, he will be the most improved player in the country. 

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Like I said, I think the only position in question in the starting lineup is at the 2 between Bates, Galloway, and JHS. 

No one has mentioned Coach Woodson's favorite subject yet...defense.

We know Galloway is a decent defender. Tamar tried, but gets himself out of position sometimes. As far as JHS goes, he was a great high school defender, and has the tools to be a lockdown type guy in college...but, until I see him on a Tanner Holden or Seth Lundy, I'll reserve judgement. I do think he has the best balance of offense and defense of the 3.

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13 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Like I said, I think the only position in question in the starting lineup is at the 2 between Bates, Galloway, and JHS. 

No one has mentioned Coach Woodson's favorite subject yet...defense.

We know Galloway is a decent defender. Tamar tried, but gets himself out of position sometimes. As far as JHS goes, he was a great high school defender, and has the tools to be a lockdown type guy in college...but, until I see him on a Tanner Holden or Seth Lundy, I'll reserve judgement. I do think he has the best balance of offense and defense of the 3.

Interesting little fact is that of the players who played significant minutes last season TJD was 1st in Defensive Box Plus/Minus at 4.2 and Galloway was second at 3.7. 

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13 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

If Geronimo plays 25 mpg next year with the guys we have in front of him at the four, he will be the most improved player in the country. 

All of the advanced metrics (PER, W/S per 40. Box +/-, etc.) clearly indicate that Geronimo is our 4th most effective player among returnees.  And, it's not really close.  I can't see a scenario where Galloway or Kopp consistently play more minutes than Geronimo.  

I personally believe that he's still at IU because Woodson convinced him he can get him to the NBA.  Otherwise, he would have transferred.  He didn't come back to IU to sit on the bench for 70% of the game.  He's going to get 20+ minutes a game, with the occasional 20-30 minute game thrown in there if Race or Trayce is in foul trouble.   

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5 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

All of the advanced metrics (PER, W/S per 40. Box +/-, etc.) clearly indicate that Geronimo is our 4th most effective player among returnees.  And, it's not really close.  I can't see a scenario where Galloway or Kopp consistently play more minutes than Geronimo.  

I personally believe that he's still at IU because Woodson convinced him he can get him to the NBA.  Otherwise, he would have transferred.  He didn't come back to IU to sit on the bench for 70% of the game.  He's going to get 20+ minutes a game, with the occasional 20-30 minute game thrown in there if Race or Trayce is in foul trouble.   

So which of the three guys better than him do you want him stealing minutes from?

 Woodson essentially had to recruit/rerecruit all four of the guys competing for minutes at the 4 and 5 so it’s not exactly a compelling argument IMO to say he could have transferred.

Kopp and Galloway play a completely different position than Geronimo so they aren’t exactly a relevant discussion point. Talk about them in comparison to Bates and JHS. 

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11 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

All of the advanced metrics (PER, W/S per 40. Box +/-, etc.) clearly indicate that Geronimo is our 4th most effective player among returnees.  And, it's not really close.  I can't see a scenario where Galloway or Kopp consistently play more minutes than Geronimo.  

I personally believe that he's still at IU because Woodson convinced him he can get him to the NBA.  Otherwise, he would have transferred.  He didn't come back to IU to sit on the bench for 70% of the game.  He's going to get 20+ minutes a game, with the occasional 20-30 minute game thrown in there if Race or Trayce is in foul trouble.   

You guys know me. I have zero insider information so this is just my two cents. 90 days between now and when school starts up again. I just have a hard time believing (in the world of college hoops) that with Race/TJD coming back....our entire roster will return. I'm not saying this to speculate who....just kids go home for summer sometimes and think things over. 

The same way I was shocked that Franklin left.....is the same way I won't be shocked if we have someone leave or not come to begin with. 

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I don’t want to pile on Geronimo. But some of you are so, so unfair to the kid with the expectations you’re putting on him. He’s an athletic, undersized 4 that isn’t particularly skilled at this point.

His advanced metrics don’t mean much because he didn’t play many minutes, it’s not fair to think you can literally double his minutes and still get high level production.

Its not fair to assume he’s going to play at the wing at all. He didn’t do it last year and he had every chance in the world to earn minutes there. I mean look no further than the Northwestern game where we were absolutely desperate for perimeter players and Anthony Leal played twice as many minutes as he did.

I like Jordan and think he’s a good kid, I’m thrilled he came back. I absolutely don’t think he’s remotely as good as the three guys in front of him at the 4 and 5, and I don’t think he has anything resembling perimeter skills at this point in time. I think if he stays another three years he can be a really nice player by the time he’s a senior, but right now he’s a spot minute guy that can be successful when he is put in specific situations. Expecting more than that is setting him up for failure IMO. 

Edited by KoB2011
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3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I don’t want to pile on Geronimo. But some of you are so, so unfair to the kid with the expectations you’re putting on him. He’s an athletic, undersized 4 that isn’t particularly skilled at this point.

His advanced metrics don’t mean much because he didn’t play many minutes, it’s not fair to think you can literally double his minutes and still get high level production.

Its not fair to assume he’s going to play at the wing at all. He didn’t do it last year and he had every chance in the world to earn minutes there. I mean look no further than the Northwestern game where we were absolutely desperate for perimeter players and Anthony Leal played twice as many minutes as he did.

I look Jordan and think he’s a good kid, I’m thrilled he came back. I absolutely don’t think he’s remotely as good as the three guys in front of him at the 4 and 5, and I don’t think he has anything resembling perimeter skills at this point in time. I think if he stays another three years he can be a really nice player by the time he’s a senior, but right now he’s a spot minute guy that can be successful when he is put in specific situations. Expecting more than that is setting him up for failure IMO. 

I feel like the vast majority on this board were REALLY, REALLY hoping and glad that Geronimo came back.

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3 minutes ago, ephul said:

I feel like the vast majority on this board were REALLY, REALLY hoping and glad that Geronimo came back.

I’m really glad he came back too, I just don’t expect a huge change in role for him since the two guys that were in front of him last year also came back and we brought in a 5 star that he’s going to compete for minutes with.

He frankly had a much better chance to take minutes on the wing last year than he probably does this year with JHS in the fold on the perimeter and Galloway hopefully being healthy all year, plus a year of growth from Bates. 

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4 hours ago, Jackson Kellogs said:

There is a rumor floating around that Galloway was considering transferring to Butler. Supposedly loved Matta, but decided to stay in Bloomington. 

Given his game, I feel like Galloway is getting quite a bit of playing time.

He essentially has no outside shot. And getting a ton of minutes in the Big Ten. Not sure what transferring does, unless he has little faith in Woodson and a ton in Matta.

I don't believe that one at all. But crazier things have happened.

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2 minutes ago, ephul said:

Given his game, I feel like Galloway is getting quite a bit of playing time.

He essentially has no outside shot. And getting a ton of minutes in the Big Ten. Not sure what transferring does, unless he has little faith in Woodson and a ton in Matta.

I don't believe that one at all. But crazier things have happened.

Whats the definition of considering? 

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X, TJD and Race will start.Trayce is a lock. Race didn't come back to sit.  X is still on the team, so he starts. There are two starting spots open, as I see it. 

Woodson won't take the focus off defense but he needs a shooter or scorer on the floor opposite Trayce. 

Kopp may start again but if any other option show a developed outside shot or ability to score they will take that slot because Miller is not great defensively and does not rebound.

Tamar has more physical tools. If he develops his offense and defend, he's the best option because of his length. 

Jordan may be the most ready on offense and defense. His physical skills make him special and there were times last season he looked like the best player on the court not named Trayce.

JHS should play early and often. Start? I hope so. If IU wants to go deep into the big dance he needs to be a big part of it. Another guard who can get his own, big, physical and strong on D. If he hits anything outside or can get to the rim he needs to be on the court.

The positive is IU has a lot of options.

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