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Let's start arguing about starting lineup again!


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51 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I agree that JG does not look like a 3. That said, both Woody and Kenya have said in interviews that they are preparing Geronimo for the 3 next season. I think this should pretty much end the Geronimo 3/4 debate. Whether or not he'll be successful is another debate.

Have a link? I know they said they want him working on his perimeter skills but that’s a lot different than saying they want him to play the 3. 

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34 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I would agree defense is the bigger concern because offensively I can see it working well.  Race can and does play some on the perimeter in the offense, and can help break a press or even bring it up himself in a pinch.  And. I think they both are capable enough to shoot 35% from 3.  

Having them both on the floor could result in a huge number of offensive boards and second chance points.

And a ton of fastbreak points for the defense if we are going to have three guys crash the offensive glass. 

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6 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

And a ton of fastbreak points for the defense if we are going to have three guys crash the offensive glass. 

I feel like we would give up a massive amount of transition 3's with a TJD, Race, JG lineup. 

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2 hours ago, slojoe said:

JHS's HC at Montverde says his most immediate impact in college will be on defense.  The director of his AAU program says he's a good defender on-ball, and he can guard 1-3.  A Rivals scout said that he's developing a reputation as a shutdown defender. 

I'm pretty sure many of the same things were said about Bates and he even called himself a dog on defense.  I'm going to try not to laugh at that statement

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15 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

I'm pretty sure many of the same things were said about Bates and he even called himself a dog on defense.  I'm going to try not to laugh at that statement

Yeah, Bates ranks as the most disappointing player for me last season and as a result, I'll remain skeptical about all the offseason jump hype until I see it on the floor.  It's pretty obvious to me that too much of Bates' attention was focused on matters outside of basketball and to me, he failed to meet expectations as a result of his lack of focus.  I'm not saying basketball should always be number one, but I have to wonder if it was even in the top three last season.

I hope he balls out this season, but after the disappointment of last season, I'll believe it when I see it.

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8 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Yeah, Bates ranks as the most disappointing player for me last season and as a result, I'll remain skeptical about all the offseason jump hype until I see it on the floor.  It's pretty obvious to me that too much of Bates' attention was focused on matters outside of basketball and to me, he failed to meet expectations as a result of his lack of focus.  I'm not saying basketball should always be number one, but I have to wonder if it was even in the top three last season.

I hope he balls out this season, but after the disappointment of last season, I'll believe it when I see it.

I think the same could be said for Lander. Although different distractions, his focus is on being a TikTok star. 

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26 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Have a link? I know they said they want him working on his perimeter skills but that’s a lot different than saying they want him to play the 3. 

Hopefully I was remembering the Hoosier Hysterics interviews accurately - that's where I heard it. In context and the impression that I got is that they definitely want him working on his perimeter skills so he can play on the wing next season.

I agree with some of you that based on last year's play I don't see him at the 3 either because of defense and ball handling. But I'm not the coach. The narrative the coaches are putting out there is that he's not fully developed because he hasn't been playing basketball long - he's still very green. Combine that with the fact that he's had 3 or 4 coaches in the last 4 years - all with different systems. Maybe that explains him getting lost on the perimeter. Maybe that explains the bad reaching fouls. I don't know. Apparently though, they believe he has the athleticism to make that transition. 

Reading in between the lines: we signed Reneau and JG didn't transfer. I think that in itself says a lot. 

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4 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Hopefully I was remembering the Hoosier Hysterics interviews accurately - that's where I heard it. In context and the impression that I got is that they definitely want him working on his perimeter skills so he can play on the wing next season.

I agree with some of you that based on last year's play I don't see him at the 3 either because of defense and ball handling. But I'm not the coach. The narrative the coaches are putting out there is that he's not fully developed because he hasn't been playing basketball long - he's still very green. Combine that with the fact that he's had 3 or 4 coaches in the last 4 years - all with different systems. Maybe that explains him getting lost on the perimeter. Maybe that explains the bad reaching fouls. I don't know. Apparently though, they believe he has the athleticism to make that transition. 

Reading in between the lines: we signed Reneau and JG didn't transfer. I think that in itself says a lot. 

I think he desperately needs to improve his perimeter skills to even be a starting level stretch 4, I just don't read that as that means he's going to be playing on the wing. I could be wrong. 

I think we as fans try to read kids decisions to transfer or not transfer as strictly related to their role on the team and the reality is there's probably a lot more that goes into it for most kids than that. Think about whatever factors you'd have to look at into make a job change, than add a major move to it, and that's what goes into transferring. It's a bigger decision that just roles on a basketball team IMO. 

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59 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

And a ton of fastbreak points for the defense if we are going to have three guys crash the offensive glass. 

Where did I say they both would be crashing the glass on 100% of shots? But, it opens the door for many more offensive rebounding opportunities.  If Bates shoots a 3 from the left corner and Race is on the left wing, of course Race does not crash the offensive board.  But, if the guy on the weak side is Geronimo instead of Kopp......BINGO an offensive rebounding opportunity that is not there otherwise.

You guys are pulling out worst case scenario for every argument.  The reality is both Woodson and Hunter have publicly indicated the are working with JG with the idea of him playing some 3.

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1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

Where did I say they both would be crashing the glass on 100% of shots? But, it opens the door for many more offensive rebounding opportunities.  If Bates shoots a 3 from the left corner and Race is on the left wing, of course Race does not crash the offensive board.  But, if the guy on the weak side is Geronimo instead of Kopp......BINGO an offensive rebounding opportunity that is not there otherwise.

You guys are pulling out worst case scenario for every argument.  The reality is both Woodson and Hunter have publicly indicated the are working with JG with the idea of him playing some 3.

No, they've not. They've said the obvious that he needs to work on perimeter skills. He's behind three other guys at the 4 and 5 so yeah, he needs to do something to differentiate himself from that group. 

The reality is Woodson and Hunter didn't play him at the 3 last year, even in situations where we had almost every option there suspended, because he is severely lacking in skills to play the 3. He needs to work on his perimeter skills to even be a starting level 4 because he is 6'6, let alone a 3. 

I really hope I'm wrong and JG is the stud 3 that everyone thinks he can be, but so far he hasn't shown any ability to play there on either end of the floor. I'm thrilled he stuck around and love his long term potential, but he's a 12 MPG guy that got recruited over by a 5 star stud. 

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25 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I think he desperately needs to improve his perimeter skills to even be a starting level stretch 4, I just don't read that as that means he's going to be playing on the wing. I could be wrong. 

I think we as fans try to read kids decisions to transfer or not transfer as strictly related to their role on the team and the reality is there's probably a lot more that goes into it for most kids than that. Think about whatever factors you'd have to look at into make a job change, than add a major move to it, and that's what goes into transferring. It's a bigger decision that just roles on a basketball team IMO. 

51 minute mark.

”One of the things coach talked about with Geronimo after the season is trying to move him towards the perimeter and trying to play the 3 spot.”

 

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3 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

51 minute mark.

”One of the things coach talked about with Geronimo after the season is trying to move him towards the perimeter and trying to play the 3 spot.”

 

Which says to me Coach Woodson is looking out for Geronimo and considering what would be best for his basketball future. 

I think the issues are whether he has or can develop his dribble drive game, is his outside shot consistent enough, and can he guard opposing 3s on the perimeter...

And I don't think his hands are as bad as Justin Smith's, but they aren't the softest I've ever seen either...

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1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

but he's a 12 MPG guy that got recruited over by a 5 star stud. 

Ahhhhhh, the old 'shiny new' philosophy.  The truth is that existing players have been known to develop.  Keegan Murray and Johnny Davis developed.  Victor Oladipo developed.  Frank Kaminsky went from redshirting to being NPOY before he was done.  Tom Coverdale, with his limited  amount of raw athleticism, went from barely playing as a freshman to being the starting PG on a team that reached the National Championship.

Renault is good.  But, that does not automatically make him better than Geronimo.  

 

 

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28 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Which says to me Coach Woodson is looking out for Geronimo and considering what would be best for his basketball future. 

I think the issues are whether he has or can develop his dribble drive game, is his outside shot consistent enough, and can he guard opposing 3s on the perimeter...

And I don't think his hands are as bad as Justin Smith's, but they aren't the softest I've ever seen either...

I was going to bring up that if JG has any chance at sniffing the NBA it's going to be as a 3 because he can develop, but he can't grow past 6'6" (on demand). Yes, you can talk about Draymond Green all you want, but he's a complete anomaly at that position, in a unique system. 

My point above about reading between the lines is that we need depth at the 3 and have more than enough at the 4. JG ultimately wants to be a 3. He didn't transfer to a place who could offer him minutes at the 3 spot. He stayed because the staff is willing to work with his to get him where he wants to be. 

Look, based on what I saw last season, I completely agree with KOB, Bgleas and BtownQB - he didn't look like a 3 to me either. But there's only so much I see and there's only so much I know. IF the coaches are saying something different, then I'm going to change my mind. I guess, it's simple as that.  If you listen to the rest of Kenya's answer on the interview, he does explain why they expect JG to make that leap.

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This is a fun and positive discussion.  I have enjoyed everyone's comments.

I think it is safe to say that we are happy with the 1, 4 and 5 positions, not just at starter, but also in terms of depth.

The big question to me are the wings.  Bates and JHS are the key guys.  But to me Galloway and Kopp are going to assert themselves.  I think Galloway is a key guy.  When he was out last year, we lost some tough games.  I think he brings defense against good wings.  I don't think he's a stopper yet, but he will put up a lot of fight.  His 3 pt % was low, i.e., under 30 percent.  His shot seemed line drivish to me and also not consistent in terms of form.  He's got all summer to get shots up.  If he shoots, let's say 33%, that would be huge.  I like Trey a lot and he's going to be a huge factor.

Miller Kopp.  I have talked about him in other threads so I don't want to  belabor the point.  He's got the true ability to stretch the floor. He's essentially a 37% shooter from 3.  We have enough data to know that.  That's a solid percentage.  I am predicting that in some big games next year, he's going to hit some big shots.  We are down 61-59 and he hits a 3 for the lead, or we are up 65-62 and he hits a big three to give us more space.  We don't have enough shooters and I am glad he's in our arsenal.

JHS, I have seen highlights and I made a comment over a year ago that he looked to me like a Jason Kidd out there.  As others more knowledgeable than me have said, his defense will get him on the floor.  We need a tough defender with his size.  His playmaking on offense is A plus stuff but his shot is questionable at this phase.

That leaves Bates.  TJD just reiterated that he's a gym rat.  He shot from 3 well in high school and it would be great if we saw more of that.  He struggled on D, and with his shot and decision-making.  But I love the work ethic.  The other thing he needs to get a grip on is his defense.  He has good length and quickness.  He just needs an attitude that "I am going to smother who I am guarding and I am going to take my defense personally."  If he does all that, this is a guy who can score in chunks.  

Bates may be the guy who is the biggest key, but I also see Galloway as a huge piece and he's a guy who isn't mentioned enough IMO.  

Edited by BobSaccamanno
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28 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Ahhhhhh, the old 'shiny new' philosophy.  The truth is that existing players have been known to develop.  Keegan Murray and Johnny Davis developed.  Victor Oladipo developed.  Frank Kaminsky went from redshirting to being NPOY before he was done.  Tom Coverdale, with his limited  amount of raw athleticism, went from barely playing as a freshman to being the starting PG on a team that reached the National Championship.

Renault is good.  But, that does not automatically make him better than Geronimo.  

 

 

Correct, I don’t believe for a minute that we came out of nowhere to land that kid so he could simply replace Durr’s minutes. He is ranked similar to TJD coming out of high school and every big we’ve brought in going back to Crean that had that type of talent was a Day 1 impact.

Of course Geronimo can take a huge jump, I’d go as far as to say we are all rooting for it. But for every kid that develops like the ones you cited, there are how many more that don’t?

The reality right now for Jordan is he wasn’t a top 100 recruit, he hasn’t shown much through two seasons, two difference coaching staffs haven’t thought he was good enough to play the 3 (including this current one that really needed him too last year), we brought in a 5 star kid with a pretty frantic recruiting effort so we could get better at his spots, and his career numbers and progression to date compare most to HMP and Freddie McSwain.

Having said all that, I like Jordan a lot and think he’s a good kid and an asset to the team  I expect big things from him before his eligibility is up in 3 more season, I just don’t see that as a major role on this upcoming team unless he has a massive leap. 

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1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

51 minute mark.

”One of the things coach talked about with Geronimo after the season is trying to move him towards the perimeter and trying to play the 3 spot.”

 

Thanks for sharing that.

I don’t personally interpret that as he is going to play the 3 next season, just that I think it’s pretty clear it’s his best chance to earn more minutes than he had last season. 

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23 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I was going to bring up that if JG has any chance at sniffing the NBA it's going to be as a 3 because he can develop, but he can't grow past 6'6" (on demand). Yes, you can talk about Draymond Green all you want, but he's a complete anomaly at that position, in a unique system. 

My point above about reading between the lines is that we need depth at the 3 and have more than enough at the 4. JG ultimately wants to be a 3. He didn't transfer to a place who could offer him minutes at the 3 spot. He stayed because the staff is willing to work with his to get him where he wants to be. 

Look, based on what I saw last season, I completely agree with KOB, Bgleas and BtownQB - he didn't look like a 3 to me either. But there's only so much I see and there's only so much I know. IF the coaches are saying something different, then I'm going to change my mind. I guess, it's simple as that.  If you listen to the rest of Kenya's answer on the interview, he does explain why they expect JG to make that leap.

I disagree on the NBA thing though. Yes, he'll need perimeter skills to sniff the NBA, but it's not just Draymond Green that plays a small 4. 

The NBA is moving that way. PJ Tucker plays the 4 for Miami, Jae Crowder plays the 4 for Phoenix, Grant Williams plays the 4 and sometimes the 5 for Boston, Nicolas Batum plays the 4 for the Clippers, OG plays the 4 for Toronto, Robert Covington played the 4 a lot for Portland before being traded to LA, Patrick Williams plays the 4 for Chicago, and so on. 

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8 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I disagree on the NBA thing though. Yes, he'll need perimeter skills to sniff the NBA, but it's not just Draymond Green that plays a small 4. 

The NBA is moving that way. PJ Tucker plays the 4 for Miami, Jae Crowder plays the 4 for Phoenix, Grant Williams plays the 4 and sometimes the 5 for Boston, Nicolas Batum plays the 4 for the Clippers, OG plays the 4 for Toronto, Robert Covington played the 4 a lot for Portland before being traded to LA, Patrick Williams plays the 4 for Chicago, and so on. 

Agreed. He needs to develop his perimeter skills to be a good 4 as much as he does to be a 3, at least defensively.

He could really differentiate himself and carve out a role on this team if he can be the guy who enables us to switch everything 1-4 on defense when he is in the game. 

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I do think we will have primarily a nine man rotation.

My remaining four guys would be Duncomb, Leal, Gunn, and Banks.  Duncomb to me is a poster child for a guy who needs to redshirt unless there is an injury up front.  I think he will be a very good player, maybe as soon as '23-24, but right now he could use more time in the oven.  

Leal is heart and toughness.  Everybody loves him and for good reason.  He can play in a pinch, but for the most part he will provide culture, leadership, attitude, etc.  A lot of fans have misread his skill set and have assumed he is a pure shooter.  That's not really his game but anyone can get better.  He's a tough kid with big shoulders who is nice on the back end of the roster.

Gunn and Banks are two guys I like for the future.  Length and quickness.  The future of this program.  But right now, they have a ton of players in front of them and they need to add muscle.  Either they come in and won't be ignored ("I won't be ignored, Dan" (from Fatal Attraction)) or more likely they will get glimpses of PT to get ready for the following year.  But, man, it would be great if one or both started draining shots at a rate that we can't ignore.

Edited by BobSaccamanno
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Based on the varying opinion, Geronimo looks like Rorschach test.  My personal view is he going to get minutes and he will be squarely in the rotation. 

I think he will earn minutes on the order of upper teens.  But right now, no one has any idea what his game will look like in late November when we start playing.  I don't know, no one else here does, Woody doesn't, and neither does JG.

I think he is finding minutes.  He has a spark to his game, he plays hard, and as TJD said, he does things the right way.  He met with the coach and they came to an understanding.  He will get solid minutes, IMO. He plays hard and with energy.  There is a jolt of electricity he brings with his game.  Sneak in there and grab an offensive rebound.  Play D.  Back down from no one.  Not taking any doo-doo from anyone.

This is the year that he takes a step up IMO but the following year, '23-24, he will be in a prominent role.  

Edited by BobSaccamanno
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6 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Based on the varying opinion, Geronimo looks like Rorschach test.  My personal view is he going to get minutes and he will be squarely in the rotation. 

I think he will earn minutes on the order of upper teens.  But right now, no one has any idea what his game will look like in late November when we start playing.  I don't know, no one else here does, Woody doesn't, and neither does JG.

I think he is finding minutes.  He has a spark to his game, he plays hard, and as TJD said, he does things the right way.  He met with the coach and they came to an understanding.  He will get solid minutes, IMO. He plays hard and with energy.  There is a jolt of electricity he brings with his game.  Sneak in there and grab an offensive rebound.  Play D.  Back down from no one.  Not taking any doo-doo from anyone.

This is the year that he takes a step up IMO but the following year, '23-24, he will be in a prominent role.  

I really, really like Banks. I don’t expect much this year but he seems to have all the tools to develop into a stud eventually. 

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1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Ahhhhhh, the old 'shiny new' philosophy.  The truth is that existing players have been known to develop.  Keegan Murray and Johnny Davis developed.  Victor Oladipo developed.  Frank Kaminsky went from redshirting to being NPOY before he was done.  Tom Coverdale, with his limited  amount of raw athleticism, went from barely playing as a freshman to being the starting PG on a team that reached the National Championship.

Renault is good.  But, that does not automatically make him better than Geronimo.  

 

 

I'd be happy if he could develop half of the ball handling skills of guys like Ochai Agbaji, 6-5 guard Kansas and his teammate Christian Braun, 6-7 guard.  

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2 hours ago, BobSaccamanno said:

This is a fun and positive discussion.  I have enjoyed everyone's comments.

I think it is safe to say that we are happy with the 1, 4 and 5 positions, not just at starter, but also in terms of depth.

The big question to me are the wings.  Bates and JHS are the key guys.  But to me Galloway and Kopp are going to assert themselves.  I think Galloway is a key guy.  When he was out last year, we lost some tough games.  I think he brings defense against good wings.  I don't think he's a stopper yet, but he will put up a lot of fight.  His 3 pt % was low, i.e., under 30 percent.  His shot seemed line drivish to me and also not consistent in terms of form.  He's got all summer to get shots up.  If he shoots, let's say 33%, that would be huge.  I like Trey a lot and he's going to be a huge factor.

Miller Kopp.  I have talked about him in other threads so I don't want to  belabor the point.  He's got the true ability to stretch the floor. He's essentially a 37% shooter from 3.  We have enough data to know that.  That's a solid percentage.  I am predicting that in some big games next year, he's going to hit some big shots.  We are down 61-59 and he hits a 3 for the lead, or we are up 65-62 and he hits a big three to give us more space.  We don't have enough shooters and I am glad he's in our arsenal.

JHS, I have seen highlights and I made a comment over a year ago that he looked to me like a Jason Kidd out there.  As others more knowledgeable than me have said, his defense will get him on the floor.  We need a tough defender with his size.  His playmaking on offense is A plus stuff but his shot is questionable at this phase.

That leaves Bates.  TJD just reiterated that he's a gym rat.  He shot from 3 well in high school and it would be great if we saw more of that.  He struggled on D, and with his shot and decision-making.  But I love the work ethic.  The other thing he needs to get a grip on is his defense.  He has good length and quickness.  He just needs an attitude that "I am going to smother who I am guarding and I am going to take my defense personally."  If he does all that, this is a guy who can score in chunks.  

Bates may be the guy who is the biggest key, but I also see Galloway as a huge piece and he's a guy who isn't mentioned enough IMO.  

For me we need guys like JHS and Bates to improve and pass Kopp and Galloway for this team to compete for the Big Ten title.  Both Kopp and Galloway are pretty much at the peak of their ability and to me they are not good enough to be a starter on a championship caliber team.

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