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5fouls
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I've been around on this board long enough that most of you will understand I'm not creating this thread just to start trouble.  I debated long and hard on how to title it, and even whether to put it out here at all.  In the end, I felt that it was a legitimate topic for discussion, and I hope we can have it without it getting out of hand.

Here's my question.  How much of the responsibility, if any, do you place on Archie's shoulders for the disappointing season?

Don't get me wrong.  I still believe that Archie is the long term answer as the coach.  But, as a fan, I can't help but be disappointed because I expected more from this team (and, yes, I blame myself for unrealistic expectations).  

There are some little things that nag me like why it took as long as it did to give McRoberts extended minutes (most of us were on that 3-4 games before it happened), not getting Smith more time in the non-conference slate (which would have had him more ready for the Big Ten), and a variety of head-scratching mistakes by the players that we should not see this late in the season.

But, the most significant question I have about the season is this.  And, to reiterate, I'm not blaming Archie, I'm simply asking the question for discussion purposes. 

Why hasn't Archie been able to 'reach' the players on the team? 

For successes, you can check off Morgan, McRoberts, and maybe even McSwain .  But, Rob, Newkirk, Green, Smith, Hartman, and Davis can all be considered disappointing based on what we have seen in the past and/or what we expected.  Durham, from whatever reason, has regressed a lot during the season.  Granted, the competition is tougher, but he is not nearly as confident as he was earlier.  Confidence is supposed to grow in a freshman during the season, not fade.

Let's use Durham as a barometer for the other struggling players.  Is it possible that the issue with many of the others is confidence as well?  And, if so, it begs the question as to why they are lacking confidence.  Do they all have a fragile psyche?  Or, has the coaching staff just not been able to help the players believe in themselves and the team? Is confidence even the responsibility of the coach?  I know it's Hollywood, but I can't help but think of the scene in Hoosiers where Gene Hackman says something like.  "After Ollie makes the second shot.  And he will make the shot.  Here's what we're going to do".    What are the root causes of why so many of our players haven't played to their potential this year?  Is it all on those players?  

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Considering none of these players are his guys. Absolutely zero on Archie. In terms of successes or disappointments.

But to your question. Why Archie isn't allegedly reaching these players? Very simple.   2 completely different styles, approaches, systems,etc....injuries have derailed team development. Nothing else to be added.

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I try to play devil's advocate a little here. What I don't understand is that we as fans myself included we blame players when we like and support the coach and we blame the coach if we don't.  

I see people praise Holtman for his job and consideration as coach of the year with another coaches players but we give Archie a pass. If we were at top of conference those same fans would be saying Archie for coach of year. Because we like Archie we say things like well Tony Bennett and Sean Miller were around .500. Mike Davis did it with CBK guys no credit for him because we as a group did not like the hire. 

Based on what I have seen I think we are underachieving but I like the big picture plan that I see.  I do not like all the bashing of our guys that chose to come here. In all honesty it's not as if we turned away a lot top tier guys. Are we the most talented team of course not but they chose to be here while a lot of local talent went elsewhere. 

Archie I feel is the right man and I expect him to be here a ling time but I still think we are not where we want to be.

 

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Any blame Archie holds is simply for not blowing up this roster when he got here. This roster is not good. We have some good players, but I’ve been saying since the offseason, this is a bad mix of players. We have very little size and length across the board (perimeter and inside), no point guard, no shooter, and no shot blocker, very little leadership, etc. 

It’s just a poorly constructed roster that doesn’t fit. We’ve been able to eek out some games because of Assembly Hall, good coaching, and sometimes individual talent taking over, but the roster generally doesn’t fit well. 

Thats largely on Crean, and any blame on Archie is just not forcing some guys out and trying to add to the 2017 class on the fly. 

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Archie is probably a good hire. I think he is still learning which can be scary, but if he grows from his mistakes I think he will be fine. Crean made the same mistakes over and over.

I like where are defense is at and It is calming to see low turnovers compared to our previous years. Free throw shooting bothers me a lot. These are wide open shots with no one guarding you.  I can’t quite figure that out. Someone posted Archie’s team free throw national ratings at Dayton . I hope that doesn’t happen here.

Overall  the best grade I could give him is a C- at this point. Those two blowout losses at home are mind boggling. 

If Archie can land Top 20 recruiting classes every season he should do well here. No matter how good of coach you are it still takes the horses to win the race.

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1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

I've been around on this board long enough that most of you will understand I'm not creating this thread just to start trouble.  I debated long and hard on how to title it, and even whether to put it out here at all.  In the end, I felt that it was a legitimate topic for discussion, and I hope we can have it without it getting out of hand.

Here's my question.  How much of the responsibility, if any, do you place on Archie's shoulders for the disappointing season?

Don't get me wrong.  I still believe that Archie is the long term answer as the coach.  But, as a fan, I can't help but be disappointed because I expected more from this team (and, yes, I blame myself for unrealistic expectations).  

There are some little things that nag me like why it took as long as it did to give McRoberts extended minutes (most of us were on that 3-4 games before it happened), not getting Smith more time in the non-conference slate (which would have had him more ready for the Big Ten), and a variety of head-scratching mistakes by the players that we should not see this late in the season.

But, the most significant question I have about the season is this.  And, to reiterate, I'm not blaming Archie, I'm simply asking the question for discussion purposes. 

Why hasn't Archie been able to 'reach' the players on the team? 

For successes, you can check off Morgan, McRoberts, and maybe even McSwain .  But, Rob, Newkirk, Green, Smith, Hartman, and Davis can all be considered disappointing based on what we have seen in the past and/or what we expected.  Durham, from whatever reason, has regressed a lot during the season.  Granted, the competition is tougher, but he is not nearly as confident as he was earlier.  Confidence is supposed to grow in a freshman during the season, not fade.

Let's use Durham as a barometer for the other struggling players.  Is it possible that the issue with many of the others is confidence as well?  And, if so, it begs the question as to why they are lacking confidence.  Do they all have a fragile psyche?  Or, has the coaching staff just not been able to help the players believe in themselves and the team? Is confidence even the responsibility of the coach?  I know it's Hollywood, but I can't help but think of the scene in Hoosiers where Gene Hackman says something like.  "After Ollie makes the second shot.  And he will make the shot.  Here's what we're going to do".    What are the root causes of why so many of our players haven't played to their potential this year?  Is it all on those players?  

I blame the players usually when they play bad and that is where I would put the majority of the blame for this season.  Archie has some blame in it but I have seen improvement in the defense this year and I see an offense that gets good looks for the most part for the players.  Archie can't be out the hitting the open shots that the players are getting.  Also I just don't see that much talent on this team and I just don't think they have the basketball IQ to be a good team.

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22 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Any blame Archie holds is simply for not blowing up this roster when he got here. This roster is not good. We have some good players, but I’ve been saying since the offseason, this is a bad mix of players. We have very little size and length across the board (perimeter and inside), no point guard, no shooter, and no shot blocker, very little leadership, etc. 

It’s just a poorly constructed roster that doesn’t fit. We’ve been able to eek out some games because of Assembly Hall, good coaching, and sometimes individual talent taking over, but the roster generally doesn’t fit well. 

Thats largely on Crean, and any blame on Archie is just not forcing some guys out and trying to add to the 2017 class on the fly. 

Good post and I concur........but that leads to the question who was still unsigned when Archie took over.

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19 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Any blame Archie holds is simply for not blowing up this roster when he got here. This roster is not good. We have some good players, but I’ve been saying since the offseason, this is a bad mix of players. We have very little size and length across the board (perimeter and inside), no point guard, no shooter, and no shot blocker, very little leadership, etc. 

It’s just a poorly constructed roster that doesn’t fit. We’ve been able to eek out some games because of Assembly Hall, good coaching, and sometimes individual talent taking over, but the roster generally doesn’t fit well. 

Thats largely on Crean, and any blame on Archie is just not forcing some guys out and trying to add to the 2017 class on the fly. 

This.

There's things we can all nitpick about with Archie. Smith's minutes, McRoberts' minutes, etc... However, these aren't things that are going to kill a team. In fact, I'm impressed that we are in games that we are in. 

This team is bad. Like, really bad. Like Bgleas said, we have no shooter, no point guard, no shot blocker, no leadership. 

One of the few teachable things in basketball, which is Defense, is actually something we are doing really well.

I hold nothing against Archie. In fact, I'm more of a believer now than I was at the beginning of the season. We've won games, and stayed in games that we have no business being in. There's not a lot of talent outside of a few guys. People rag on Illinois, but my question would be, why SHOULDN'T they have beat us? Yes, we should've won the game, but I'd argue there's more talent on that team than IU. I think Archie makes this team better than what it really is.

If we have this conversation 3-4 years from now, I think we need to take a good, hard look. But if Archie can recruit, no question we'll be at the top. Because I think he's shown time and time again that he's got the X's and O's down.

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2 minutes ago, rico said:

Good post and I concur........but that leads to the question who was still unsigned when Archie took over.

To expect Archie to jump in that late and pick up a big recruit is just wishful thinking. It's a major gamble that probably wouldn't have paid off.

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1 minute ago, rico said:

Good post and I concur........but that leads to the question who was still unsigned when Archie took over.

Good point. I kind of did the thing where you say who got snubbed from the All-Star Team but don't say who you would take off. I don't know who was out there, and maybe Archie was also impacted from coming from a mid-major where he might not have had relationships with a ton of top guys and could just walk in and scoop them up. 

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2 minutes ago, ephul said:

This.

There's things we can all nitpick about with Archie. Smith's minutes, McRoberts' minutes, etc... However, these aren't things that are going to kill a team. In fact, I'm impressed that we are in games that we are in. 

This team is bad. Like, really bad. Like Bgleas said, we have no shooter, no point guard, no shot blocker, no leadership. 

One of the few teachable things in basketball, which is Defense, is actually something we are doing really well.

I hold nothing against Archie. In fact, I'm more of a believer now than I was at the beginning of the season. We've won games, and stayed in games that we have no business being in. There's not a lot of talent outside of a few guys. People rag on Illinois, but my question would be, why SHOULDN'T they have beat us? Yes, we should've won the game, but I'd argue there's more talent on that team than IU. I think Archie makes this team better than what it really is.

If we have this conversation 3-4 years from now, I think we need to take a good, hard look. But if Archie can recruit, no question we'll be at the top. Because I think he's shown time and time again that he's got the X's and O's down.

Pretty much sums it up very well for me. Both ephul and bgleas thoughts. Wouldn't be surprised one bit if we actually have a couple more transfers after this season.

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I'm glad Archie made the integrity move to keep the Freshman class together and keep them on. However, I think Justin Smith is the only one that fits his system. Wouldn't be shocked to see transfers This is 85% on this team not being able to compete and 15% on Archie for not finding a way to beat ISU and Fort Wayne. No coach in any situation can let that happen. Period. 

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9 minutes ago, ephul said:

To expect Archie to jump in that late and pick up a big recruit is just wishful thinking. It's a major gamble that probably wouldn't have paid off.

Mckinley Wright was his if he wanted him. Had committed to him at Dayton and hoped to follow Archie to Indiana. Archie told him he would be better off elsewhere. That's a point guard that would be nice to have on this team.  The flip side (and maybe what Archie was thinking) is having him in this year may have made it more difficult to recruit point guards in future years.

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9 minutes ago, ephul said:

This.

There's things we can all nitpick about with Archie. Smith's minutes, McRoberts' minutes, etc... However, these aren't things that are going to kill a team. In fact, I'm impressed that we are in games that we are in. 

This team is bad. Like, really bad. Like Bgleas said, we have no shooter, no point guard, no shot blocker, no leadership. 

One of the few teachable things in basketball, which is Defense, is actually something we are doing really well.

I hold nothing against Archie. In fact, I'm more of a believer now than I was at the beginning of the season. We've won games, and stayed in games that we have no business being in. There's not a lot of talent outside of a few guys. People rag on Illinois, but my question would be, why SHOULDN'T they have beat us? Yes, we should've won the game, but I'd argue there's more talent on that team than IU. I think Archie makes this team better than what it really is.

If we have this conversation 3-4 years from now, I think we need to take a good, hard look. But if Archie can recruit, no question we'll be at the top. Because I think he's shown time and time again that he's got the X's and O's down.

Great post, IMO. That;s what I was trying to say, and you summed it up perfectly. I've seen some really, really strong things from Archie in terms of X's and O's (improved defense, limiting turnovers, good game plans, creating good shots out of timeouts, etc., etc.), my only question still remaining is how well he'll be able to recruit, and if the fanbase will give him time. 

We need to remember that Tony Bennett went 15-16 and 16-15 his first two years at UVA. Sean Miller struggled at UA his first year or two. It happens quite often because there is a reason the job was open in the first place, because the team wasn't good. On the flip side, you have guys like Mike Davis, Greg Gard and Holtman. They won (in Holtman's case winning) with the previous coaches recruits. It remains to be seen how OSU/Holtman will do when Bates-Diop, Tate and Kam Williams aren't there. 

The point is, we need to see how these guys do with their own recruits and to what level they can recruit. It's one of the biggest reasons I hope we get Langford, of course he's hugely talented, but I really hope we get him just simply for Archie so he can ramp the success quicker and get the fan base fully onboard. 

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2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Great post, IMO. That;s what I was trying to say, and you summed it up perfectly. I've seen some really, really strong things from Archie in terms of X's and O's (improved defense, limiting turnovers, good game plans, creating good shots out of timeouts, etc., etc.), my only question still remaining is how well he'll be able to recruit, and if the fanbase will give him time. 

We need to remember that Tony Bennett went 15-16 and 16-15 his first two years at UVA. Sean Miller struggled at UA his first year or two. It happens quite often because there is a reason the job was open in the first place, because the team wasn't good. On the flip side, you have guys like Mike Davis, Greg Gard and Holtman. They won (in Holtman's case winning) with the previous coaches recruits. It remains to be seen how OSU/Holtman will do when Bates-Diop, Tate and Kam Williams aren't there. 

The point is, we need to see how these guys do with their own recruits and to what level they can recruit. It's one of the biggest reasons I hope we get Langford, of course he's hugely talented, but I really hope we get him just simply for Archie so he can ramp the success quicker and get the fan base fully onboard. 

Bennett and S. Miller I agree with.  Especially TB.  Gard and Davis were just blessed with unusual circumstances for their hirings.  Holtmann also falls into that category, and tOSU wasn't that bad last year.....they just had a couple of bad eggs.  Archie has taken over a team that lost 3 players to the NBA.  But they were still a NIT team.  CTC didn't leave the cupboard bare, but there are a lot of items missing.

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15 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Great post, IMO. That;s what I was trying to say, and you summed it up perfectly. I've seen some really, really strong things from Archie in terms of X's and O's (improved defense, limiting turnovers, good game plans, creating good shots out of timeouts, etc., etc.), my only question still remaining is how well he'll be able to recruit, and if the fanbase will give him time. 

We need to remember that Tony Bennett went 15-16 and 16-15 his first two years at UVA. Sean Miller struggled at UA his first year or two. It happens quite often because there is a reason the job was open in the first place, because the team wasn't good. On the flip side, you have guys like Mike Davis, Greg Gard and Holtman. They won (in Holtman's case winning) with the previous coaches recruits. It remains to be seen how OSU/Holtman will do when Bates-Diop, Tate and Kam Williams aren't there. 

The point is, we need to see how these guys do with their own recruits and to what level they can recruit. It's one of the biggest reasons I hope we get Langford, of course he's hugely talented, but I really hope we get him just simply for Archie so he can ramp the success quicker and get the fan base fully onboard. 

Bobby Hurley had two bad seasons to start his career and it now appears that ASU is on the way up.

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To those sayings Archie should’ve blown up the roster.  That would’ve been crazy as recruits and parents would have been turned off and other coaches would’ve tried to use it as negative recruiting against him.  Now I fully expect some turnover this coming off season from some guys that may realize they aren’t a good fit.  I find my self disappointed but then I look at the roster and it’s jot very good!!

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Let's concede the talent is not top notch. Do we feel Archie is getting everything out of what is at his disposal?  Is what we ate getting from some of the players all that they have to offer?  Or, back to my original question.  Is this a confidence issue that the coaches could fix?

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4 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Let's concede the talent is not top notch. Do we feel Archie is getting everything out of what is at his disposal?  Is what we ate getting from some of the players all that they have to offer?  Or, back to my original question.  Is this a confidence issue that the coaches could fix?

I have always believed that you can't fix stupid. We have players that are  not high IQ players and at this level and at this time in their careers reprogramming them isn't going to happen. You can do that with the Smith's, Durham's, Davis's, but not with Newkirk, Johnson, Hartman and McSwain. There is simply not enough time with them. 

Miller is the coach so he gets the praise when we win and the heat when we lose. This is his team but not his players. He had to play the hand he was dealt, which after the three players left was not very good. We can all sit on our couches and criticize this team but no one really knows what is going on in practices and meetings. Coach Miller has given every player on this team the opportunity to play and improve. A few have done it, most have not. 
 

Next year will be better and the next will we will be much more improved. We need some upperclassmen who have been in his system to lead the younger group. Right now we don't have that. In my opinion the future looks bright for Indiana and Coach Miller. All of us coaches in waiting just have to be patient and allow Coach Miller to cycle through the roster and bring in his type of players. 

 

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We have 2 players that can score consistently, Rojo and Juwan. You aren't going to be competitive in Power 5 Conference basketball with that lack of fire power. As others have said, we don't have shot blockers or shooters, so I think he is doing really well with what he has to work with. Injuries to Hartman has really hurt his outside shooting and offensive production that I believe many of us were counting on. I don't see how you could put this roster and year entirely on Archie. We are seeing the team play a much smarter brand of basketball, like we used to under Knight, that I don't see how anyone can't be excited about the future as long as recruiting is up to par or better.

I think at this point I would move Devonte into the starting lineup over Newkirk. Being offensively challenged as a team, I would roll the dice with the better offensive player.

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18 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Let's concede the talent is not top notch. Do we feel Archie is getting everything out of what is at his disposal?  Is what we ate getting from some of the players all that they have to offer?  Or, back to my original question.  Is this a confidence issue that the coaches could fix?

I think those are questions that can't really be answered. These guys are human beings, not robots, so of course the way the season is unfolding is taking a toll and that can impact confidence. Confidence comes from success, and I'm not sure what Archie can do to make this roster experience more success, especially against teams that are just flat-out better than us. 

I played on a couple really bad college teams, and can tell you it is exhausting mentally. Human nature takes over and it just gets harder and harder to feel good about practice and working, etc. You're not conscientiously choosing to give less effort or have less confidence, but it just happens and you get to a point where you just want the season to end, which definitely impacts performance. Again, it's not really a conscience choice, it's just reality. 

With that said, I don't see a lack of effort with this team. Outside of a sluggish start, which happens, I thought the guys played hard, especially defensively last night. They clearly played hard against Purdue. It's just a shame we couldn't pull out the UI game and haven't been able to break through in games like Duke and Purdue, because the team was right there and a win in a few of those games could have changed the trajectory of everything. 

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