Archie

[BGleas]

5 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

The fever pitched panicking may be a fun read in a few years.  Someone ought to save this thread for future reference.

It's not all that complicated.  You switched schemes on both ends.  Not a little, but a total overhaul.  The defense and ball control have gotten progressively better.  The roster is not Archie's and it is woefully deficient.  Most importantly, there is a total lack of shooting.  We throw out all these 3-16's from three and it's going to be tough to win.  

Schilling has a great resume in player development.  

I cannot guarantee that Archie will not bust, but I like the way he thinks and is setting things up in the different aspects.  It's not just offensive and defensive schemes, but also recruiting and roster construction.  He handles himself well too.  I am backing him until he has time to prove himself.  

This team was never going to have a good season this year, so if that was your expectation, I can see why you're disappointed.  It will take time.  Most of the criticisms I have seen are amusing and silly, and fairly unrealistic.  Now if in a couple of years, his schemes get beaten by a drum and he is recruiting the wrong guys, then we can blast away.  I am in the camp that this will not happen and fire away at me if it does.

Agree 100%. 

[FKIM01]

2 hours ago, IUwins0708 said:

To those sayings Archie should’ve blown up the roster.  That would’ve been crazy as recruits and parents would have been turned off and other coaches would’ve tried to use it as negative recruiting against him.  Now I fully expect some turnover this coming off season from some guys that may realize they aren’t a good fit.  I find my self disappointed but then I look at the roster and it’s not very good!!

THIS.  Archie did the right thing long-term by (with one exception) keeping the roster intact.  Imagine six or seven Grant Gelons whining to the press about what a bad guy the new IU coach is.  That would be a big negative to recruits looking at IU going forward, so the right thing to do (and the least time-consuming when time is a very precious commodity) is to keep the roster intact.  I also agree with 7/8 that we will likely have some post-season movement on the roster.  Expect Archie to have the traditional post season player meetings where he casts his vision for the future and players get a feel for how they will (or won't) fit in.  I refuse to engage in name speculation on who might transfer as I see it as a real negative for players to read stuff like that.  I'm not above calling them out for their lack of effort on free throws, but I really do want all of them to succeed AT IU. I would suppose Archie has a much better idea now about what he has on the roster and I see adjustments coming soon.  At the same time, I get frustrated at the impatience I sense among some fans.  Considering the vast difference in style and roster construction, I think we owe Archie at least a couple of seasons to really start putting his stamp on the program.

No question, Holtman has done an excellent job at OSU but it's equally apparent that he had some legitimate talent on the roster that was simply injured or underperforming last season. Credit him for pulling it together quickly but I too will have interest in seeing what he can do once Matta's recruits graduate.  I think he'll still be good, but it's not without question that he could come back to the pack when he has to start selling the school to new recruits.  I have no idea what he has signed for the next class, but if I remember right, he should have several slots open.

Back to Archie...one point I've yet to see mentioned is that Archie has known this roster for only a matter of months.  Last year at this time, he had zero reason to know anything about IU's program or roster.  We've known the players, in some cases five years.  Most of us have known the program for many years.  I know looking back with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, he would say he made a few mistakes.  At the same time, I agree with an earlier poster that the conversation, while interesting, is premature.  Archie is trying to cram several years worth of work into several months.  I'm not surprised there are some growing pains and my goal of 20 wins looks out of reach now, but I'm not going to put much of that on Archie.  IU has never had a perfect coach and IU never will.  There will always be something to second guess and sometimes, it's easier for a knowledgeable fan to see something that the coaching staff misses in the heat of the battle.  All that being said, I think pumping the brakes on judging the coach at this point in time is prudent.

[cybergates]

2 hours ago, rico said:

I was gonna say this earlier but I bit my tongue.  Now I am gonna get it off my chest.  I watched the entire game last night and JSMH.  Double digit deficit pretty much right off the bat.  But in the 2nd half why not try something different?  Damn, give the Bucks a defensive look that they weren't prepared for?  Full court press, zone press, or even fall back into a zone.  I dunno.......we needed to change something and we never did.  Rant over.

2nd half was 33-33 so I think they did try some different things and had better results than the 1st half.

[rico]

21 minutes ago, cybergates said:

2nd half was 33-33 so I think they did try some different things and had better results than the 1st half.

Playing equal in the second half does not make up the deficit that was incurred in the first.  You need points, and plenty of them.  If you can't hit 3's then something should have changed.

[Hoosierhoopster]

13 minutes ago, rico said:

Playing equal in the second half does not make up the deficit that was incurred in the first.  You need points, and plenty of them.  If you can't hit 3's then something should have changed.

?

Something was changed, and IU did score more points -- than it did in the first -- are you saying nothing changed because the team wasn't able to dig itself out of that big hole? 

[Snozzwangers_und_covfefe]

Not sure how anyone can say our defense hasn't improved throughout the season.  Kenpom might show us at 105 for the season, but we're 5th in conference only defense, above Michigan which sports the 25th ranked defensive efficiency for the season.  We started the year quite poorly on D, but have improved remarkably as CAMs philosophy has taken hold.  

[Hoosier82]

6 hours ago, dbmhoosier said:

This season is almost entirely on Fred Glass.  Crean had been a dead man walking for years which is why his last 2 recruiting classes sucked balls.  The rug should've been pulled after year 7 as I and many others were telling everyone.   But that massive buyout and Fred's even more enormous ego...

So you think Glass should have fired Crean when? After the sweet 16 tourney run and having just won the outright BigTen title? or are you actually insinuating he should have been fired before even that season???

[FWIUFan]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

This is what I have been saying. Not sure if you're agreeing with me, or misinterpreting my posts?

Enjoy your posts and insights!  I couldn't agree with you more.

[hoosierBGH]

7 hours ago, 5fouls said:

I've been around on this board long enough that most of you will understand I'm not creating this thread just to start trouble.  I debated long and hard on how to title it, and even whether to put it out here at all.  In the end, I felt that it was a legitimate topic for discussion, and I hope we can have it without it getting out of hand.

Here's my question.  How much of the responsibility, if any, do you place on Archie's shoulders for the disappointing season?

Don't get me wrong.  I still believe that Archie is the long term answer as the coach.  But, as a fan, I can't help but be disappointed because I expected more from this team (and, yes, I blame myself for unrealistic expectations).  

There are some little things that nag me like why it took as long as it did to give McRoberts extended minutes (most of us were on that 3-4 games before it happened), not getting Smith more time in the non-conference slate (which would have had him more ready for the Big Ten), and a variety of head-scratching mistakes by the players that we should not see this late in the season.

But, the most significant question I have about the season is this.  And, to reiterate, I'm not blaming Archie, I'm simply asking the question for discussion purposes. 

Why hasn't Archie been able to 'reach' the players on the team? 

For successes, you can check off Morgan, McRoberts, and maybe even McSwain .  But, Rob, Newkirk, Green, Smith, Hartman, and Davis can all be considered disappointing based on what we have seen in the past and/or what we expected.  Durham, from whatever reason, has regressed a lot during the season.  Granted, the competition is tougher, but he is not nearly as confident as he was earlier.  Confidence is supposed to grow in a freshman during the season, not fade.

Let's use Durham as a barometer for the other struggling players.  Is it possible that the issue with many of the others is confidence as well?  And, if so, it begs the question as to why they are lacking confidence.  Do they all have a fragile psyche?  Or, has the coaching staff just not been able to help the players believe in themselves and the team? Is confidence even the responsibility of the coach?  I know it's Hollywood, but I can't help but think of the scene in Hoosiers where Gene Hackman says something like.  "After Ollie makes the second shot.  And he will make the shot.  Here's what we're going to do".    What are the root causes of why so many of our players haven't played to their potential this year?  Is it all on those players?  

Are you trying to assign responsibility or determine blame? While seemingly similar and often treated the same, responsibility is vastly different than blame in practice. Archie bears complete responsibility for his decisions and his actions as would any other coach. It is quite easy to play armchair or keyboard coach and second guess any number of such decisions and actions with the benefit of hindsight (some have made quite a hobby of it recently) but it is much more difficult to assign legitimate blame for the results of those decisions and actions. IMO, it takes a pretty mulish and determined person to find much to blame Archie for given the limits of time and circumstance he dealt with. 

People were clamoring for someone that coached 180 degrees differently than Crean and that appears to be exactly what they got. They shouldn't then be surprised that a team built and coached to play one way, would struggle when coached to play a significantly different way. Nor should they be surprised that the effort to install the new systems takes away from coaching other elements of the game and can be detrimental, at least initially, to player performance. In my experience, "disciplined" teams react better and respond quicker to more freedom than "free" teams do with more discipline. 

Where does the fault lie in your expectation for those players (and for the team, for that matter), with them, or with your expectations? IMO, Smith has done fairly well for a freshman ranked about where he was. Durham has done better than I expected for a freshman that shoots as poorly as he does. Hartman has continued to experience minor injury after minor injury on top of recovering from the major one last year, I'm not sure how you could reasonably expect a whole lot more. Davis' performance was disappointing but not all that unpredictable and Newkirk is what he has always been, a flawed player.  

[dbmhoosier]

43 minutes ago, Hoosier82 said:

So you think Glass should have fired Crean when? After the sweet 16 tourney run and having just won the outright BigTen title? or are you actually insinuating he should have been fired before even that season???

After year 7.  That was mentioned in my post.  Right after we got blasted in the round of 64 and probably should've missed the tourney 2 straight years. 

[Hoosier82]

2 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

After year 7.  That was mentioned in my post.  Right after we got blasted in the round of 64 and probably should've missed the tourney 2 straight years. 

I think any level headed fan can agree Crean's first 3 years don't count against him, that was the unavoidable growing pain stage to pull this program up out of the gutter....so with that said, you then have years 4-9 that actually count toward Crean's performance. Meaning you would have fired him after going to the sweet 16 twice in four years along with a 20 win tournament season? You think that's rational? Not to mention the fact that if Glass did somehow predict the last two years of Crean's tenure and fired him after year 7, who knows what coach we'd have been able to put in place then and I can guarantee you Zeller doesn't come back (does Yogi ask out of his LOI?) and thus we don't win the BigTen title or get back to the sweet 16 under a new coach....I think it's safe to say this program is in a much better place today having held on to Crean than it would be if Glass had fired him after year 7. Firing him then would have been unjustifiable and boarding on insane. 

[btownqb]

1 hour ago, rico said:

Playing equal in the second half does not make up the deficit that was incurred in the first.  You need points, and plenty of them.  If you can't hit 3's then something should have changed.

Is there any possible way we literally played our best, on one days rest with a depleted roster, in the 2nd half? 

Truthfully.. I think so. 

[BGleas]

32 minutes ago, Hoosier82 said:

I think any level headed fan can agree Crean's first 3 years don't count against him, that was the unavoidable growing pain stage to pull this program up out of the gutter....so with that said, you then have years 4-9 that actually count toward Crean's performance. Meaning you would have fired him after going to the sweet 16 twice in four years along with a 20 win tournament season? You think that's rational? Not to mention the fact that if Glass did somehow predict the last two years of Crean's tenure and fired him after year 7, who knows what coach we'd have been able to put in place then and I can guarantee you Zeller doesn't come back (does Yogi ask out of his LOI?) and thus we don't win the BigTen title or get back to the sweet 16 under a new coach....I think it's safe to say this program is in a much better place today having held on to Crean than it would be if Glass had fired him after year 7. Firing him then would have been unjustifiable and boarding on insane. 

Just so you're on the same timeline, DBM was saying after Yogi's junior year. 

[dbmhoosier]

5 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Just so you're on the same timeline, DBM was saying after Yogi's junior year. 

Correct.  Many thought he was gone for sure.

https://youtu.be/fVJfE-QEDYA

[Hoosierhoopster]

This is all bunk, puppies and rainbows.

CAM has clearly dropped the ball and is utterly failing to meet any expectations as IU's new coach in year 1. I mean just look at 1) our turnover percentage, 2) our ability to play against the zone; 3) institution of a half-court offense, and 4) a transition to moving the ball inside. 

Oh wait.

[madmax]

1 hour ago, hoosierBGH said:

Are you trying to assign responsibility or determine blame? While seemingly similar and often treated the same, responsibility is vastly different than blame in practice. Archie bears complete responsibility for his decisions and his actions as would any other coach. It is quite easy to play armchair or keyboard coach and second guess any number of such decisions and actions with the benefit of hindsight (some have made quite a hobby of it recently) but it is much more difficult to assign legitimate blame for the results of those decisions and actions. IMO, it takes a pretty mulish and determined person to find much to blame Archie for given the limits of time and circumstance he dealt with. 

People were clamoring for someone that coached 180 degrees differently than Crean and that appears to be exactly what they got. They shouldn't then be surprised that a team built and coached to play one way, would struggle when coached to play a significantly different way. Nor should they be surprised that the effort to install the new systems takes away from coaching other elements of the game and can be detrimental, at least initially, to player performance. In my experience, "disciplined" teams react better and respond quicker to more freedom than "free" teams do with more discipline. 

Where does the fault lie in your expectation for those players (and for the team, for that matter), with them, or with your expectations? IMO, Smith has done fairly well for a freshman ranked about where he was. Durham has done better than I expected for a freshman that shoots as poorly as he does. Hartman has continued to experience minor injury after minor injury on top of recovering from the major one last year, I'm not sure how you could reasonably expect a whole lot more. Davis' performance was disappointing but not all that unpredictable and Newkirk is what he has always been, a flawed player.  

Well thought out post. +1

[IowaHoosierFan]

Currently for 2018 we're the #19 ranked class with OSU the #22 ranked class in recruiting.  They had the #23 ranked class for 2017. 

[cohete15]

27 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Currently for 2018 we're the #19 ranked class with OSU the #22 ranked class in recruiting.  They had the #23 ranked class for 2017. 

Curious as to how big of a jump in ranking Romeo would give us. 

[dbmhoosier]

10 minutes ago, cohete15 said:

Curious as to how big of a jump in ranking Romeo would give us. 

Probably quite a bit.  I'm assuming Race isn't included in the ranking even though he'll be a freshman.

[Seeking6]

8 minutes ago, cohete15 said:

Curious as to how big of a jump in ranking Romeo would give us. 

Using others as a basis...if we land Romeo that would vault us into top 10. Michigan is currently 9th with 1 5 star 3 4 stars and 1 3 stars. UCLA is similar at 10. 

[milehiiu]

Archie did blow up the roster.   He got rid of Grant Gelon. 

[Proud2BAHoosier]

6 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Archie did blow up the roster.   He got rid of Grant Gelon. 

CuJo also left, although I'm not sure if CAM had anything to do with it or not

[dbmhoosier]

12 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

Using others as a basis...if we land Romeo that would vault us into top 10. Michigan is currently 9th with 1 5 star 3 4 stars and 1 3 stars. UCLA is similar at 10. 

If Archie can land a top 15 class almost every year I have no doubt he'll be the coach here long term.  I'm still just not sure he's that good of a recruiter. 

[milehiiu]

2 minutes ago, Proud2BAHoosier said:

CuJo also left, although I'm not sure if CAM had anything to do with it or not

That's true, about CuJo as well. Miller, had something to do with it.  Not as definitive as it was with Grant, however. 

[Drroogh]

There has already been some comparisons, but I see 4 coaching change scenarios.

1) Following a coach that instills discipline and precision and all of the other basics of Basketball, a new coach comes in and gives the players some new freedoms. New coach has success and may even excel until they have to use their own players that were not taught the basics. Think Mike Davis, Kevin Ollie and I believe Greg Gard will ultimately fall here.

2)Following a coach that instills discipline and precision and all of the other basics of Basketball, a new coach comes in and continues to instill the basics and continues the prior success. I'm thinking Coach Knight here. (although I remember people yelling at the TV because of something coach did or didn't do during the 71-72 season)

3)Freewheeling coach follows freewheeling coach with similar success. enough said.

4) Freewheeling coach is followed by a coach that instills discipline and precision and all of the other basics of Basketball. Coach struggles with the learning curve and roster but ultimately proves to be a very solid coach. Think Tony Bennett. I think Archie is clearly in this scenario, and while I'm not happy with the losses, I am happy with the direction of the program!!!

PS: Speaking of Tony Bennett, for me the jury was still out on the pack line defense until I watched Virginia beat Duke and they talked about Bennett using the Pack Line. SOLD!