Billingsley99 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 James Madison, the fourth president, known as “The Father of Our Constitution” made the following statement “We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said, “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians…not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ”. Which God here are we refering to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: Hmm I'm not sure who it was meant for, but yes it cut out the miracles and focused on the teachings of Jesus. We could have a whole different discussion about the teachings of Jesus, but that's probably not appropriate here, my point was no religion or supernatural is needed for morality. Its not needed because Jefferson cut it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said: James Madison, the fourth president, known as “The Father of Our Constitution” made the following statement “We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said, “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians…not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ”. Which God here are we refering to? That's pretty clearly referring to the Judea-Christian god. Having said that, the notion of one being completely a-religious wasn't really a thing back then. There are quotes from others that would show more of a bend towards deism, which in those days would have been about as lacking of a belief in any god as you would get. Regardless, we have the Establishment Clause for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: Its not needed because Jefferson cut it out? According to Jefferson it wasn't needed. I'm all ears for why you need to believe in any god, let alone a specific god, for a foundation for morality. Do you have a good reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: According to Jefferson it wasn't needed. I'm all ears for why you need to believe in any god, let alone a specific god, for a foundation for morality if you've got a good reason. I dont .my point being is that you said that you dont have to have religion as a basis for morality. I agree with that . You then referenced Jeffersons Bible as a source. I was just stating this source was just excerts taken from the Holy Bible with certain parts left out. Makes it no more or no less valid just i dont feel it validates your stance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Ot. My son just pitched his first 2 innings of college baseball. Struck out 4 gave up 1 hit and no runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: I dont .my point being is that you said that you dont have to have religion as a basis for morality. I agree with that . You then referenced Jeffersons Bible as a source. I was just stating this source was just excerts taken from the Holy Bible with certain parts left out. Makes it no more or no less valid just i dont feel it validates your stance My stance was specifically about the Founding Fathers being Christian, which I think Jefferson demonstrated he wasn't by writing a Bible devoid of the Divine. I have said in other parts of the thread that we don't need religion for morality (and I've hinted that we are better off without it) but that wasn't part of my point on Jefferson, Mill, et al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said: Ot. My son just pitched his first 2 innings of college baseball. Struck out 4 gave up 1 hit and no runs. That's awesome man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: My stance was specifically about the Founding Fathers being Christian, which I think Jefferson demonstrated he wasn't by writing a Bible devoid of the Divine. I have said in other parts of the thread that we don't need religion for morality (and I've hinted that we are better off without it) but that wasn't part of my point on Jefferson, Mill, et al. I disagree Jefferson clearly states i am a christian a follower of Christ but his fear was the interpretation of the people. I have never seen Jefferson say he did not believe in God. I may be wrong just from memory i do not recollect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: That's awesome man! Thank u. Thats why i love this place. We all minus Boiler and a few trolls love IU but even if we dont agree on things this gas slways been a place where we support each other. Truly appreciate it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: I disagree Jefferson clearly states i am a christian a follower of Christ but his fear was the interpretation of the people. I have never seen Jefferson say he did not believe in God. I may be wrong just from memory i do not recollect. Where did he say that? He was a well-known diest. Read the links used as sources in the wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Thomas_Jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."[33] there are also some that believe Jefferson wrote it as a way for the "indians" to understand the 4 gospels better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."[33] there are also some that believe Jefferson wrote it as a way for the "indians" to understand the 4 gospels better. That seems to clearly state he thought Jesus was a good moral teacher. There's no evidence that he actually thought of Jesus as a diety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 I dont know if there is any real proof either way. In many letters jefferson stated that in regards to religion that is was between the man and their maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said: I dont know if there is any real proof either way. In many letters jefferson stated that in regards to religion that is was between the man and their maker. Maker would fall into the diest category. There is quite a bit of evidence he was a diest. What evidence would you expect to see from someone who is a diest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 8 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: Maker would fall into the diest category. There is quite a bit of evidence he was a diest. What evidence would you expect to see from someone who is a diest? Not disagreeing but i call my God my lord my savior my maker. Lots of different names Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Really enjoyed the discussion but 5am comes around quickly. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said: Not disagreeing but i call my God my lord my savior my maker. Lots of different names I understand that, but talking about a maker is not something that discludes you from being diest. I would say questioning "with boldness even the existence of a god" as Jefferson does in a letter to his nephew (section 4) would make it fair to say he didn't believe in the Christian god though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: I understand that, but talking about a maker is not something that discludes you from being diest. I would say questioning "with boldness even the existence of a god" as Jefferson does in a letter to his nephew (section 4) would make it fair to say he didn't believe in the Christian god though. Last point. That quote was early in his life and there are some hints that Jefferson did have some changes in his beliefs to a certain extent. I cant argue that he was a deist there is enough evidence to support that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said: Last point. That quote was early in his life and there are some hints that Jefferson did have some changes in his beliefs to a certain extent. I cant argue that he was a deist there is enough evidence to support that He was 45 when he wrote that letter and stopped talking much publicly about religion after it was written he was an infidel. We all have evolving beliefs, but I've never seen much convincing he believed in a personal god, let alone the god of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted February 26, 2018 Report Share Posted February 26, 2018 Let's get back to these school kids getting killed. Constitutional talk is a different topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 27, 2018 Report Share Posted February 27, 2018 12 hours ago, rico said: Let's get back to these school kids getting killed. Constitutional talk is a different topic. 12 hours ago, rico said: Let's get back to these school kids getting killed. Constitutional talk is a different topic. Yeah, kids getting killed is a much lighter topic. Let's get back to valuing their lives against gun rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted February 27, 2018 Report Share Posted February 27, 2018 8 hours ago, KoB2011 said: Yeah, kids getting killed is a much lighter topic. Let's get back to valuing their lives against gun rights. And once again it gets back to guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted February 27, 2018 Report Share Posted February 27, 2018 I don't know if anybody saw it. But the governors were in DC yesterday talking with the Prez about the school concerns. I didn't catch much of it, but I did see one governor talk. She was a southern lady, can't remember what state. But she said her state didn't have the money to institute what measures needed to be taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted February 27, 2018 Report Share Posted February 27, 2018 I find it interesting money can't be found and directed toward figuring out and implementing ways to make schools more secure but govt can surely find ways to waste it, for example the f35 program no-one wants, the us army changing wardrobe more often than a girl before a first date, or more related a modern school/sports facilities costing multi millions of dollars. I think this is a good indicator of peoples priorities. Also, it appears the Broward County Sheriff has set a new standard for incompetence. In these situations do you think the decision makers should be held accountable if proven to have not acted appropriately. In this case, including the mental health professionals that advised against commuting this kid? They have already thrown one of their deputies under the bus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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