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Just now, KoB2011 said:

I understand that. The logical conclusion conclusion from your posts would be that you think we should get rid of the laws we have in place that make it harder to obtain a bomb because it still can be done. Is that what you are advocating?

No, what I am saying is anybody can build a bomb with household items.  And to be honest I don't feel good about posting that.

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58 minutes ago, rico said:

No, what I am saying is anybody can build a bomb with household items.  And to be honest I don't feel good about posting that.

Of course they can, no one has disputed that. What is your point though? I'm really confused what you're trying to convey with the bomb talk and how it relates to guns. 

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12 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Of course they can, no one has disputed that. What is your point though? I'm really confused what you're trying to convey with the bomb talk and how it relates to guns. 

Evil people will improvise.  Can't say it any plainer than that.  If you take away peoples guns the evil will find something to kill you with.  The gun laws very well might take "ammunition" out of honest peoples hands to prevent it.  And fwiw who said just because you wear a badge makes you an honest person?

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10 minutes ago, rico said:

Evil people will improvise.  Can't say it any plainer than that.  If you take away peoples guns the evil will find something to kill you with.  The gun laws very well might take "ammunition" out of honest peoples hands to prevent it.  And fwiw who said just because you wear a badge makes you an honest person?

I don't think anyone disputes that people can find a way to do harm, so I'm still not sure the point. It really seems like you are saying we should just accept people can find new ways to do harm so we shouldn't try to make the "current" ways harder, is that what your point is? 

As far as guns preventing crime, there's tons of real data that shows guns cause a lot of accidental harm. There's certainly anecdotal evidence that they can prevent crime, but anecdotal evidence is really hard to measure and doesn't have much of a place in an objective discussion. If there is data out there showing guns preventing violence I'm all for seeing it, I've just never had it presented to me. 

To make this simple, we all agree evil people will improvise. That's the fact here we all agree to, what conclusion are you trying to get us to from there?

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6 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I don't think anyone disputes that people can find a way to do harm, so I'm still not sure the point. It really seems like you are saying we should just accept people can find new ways to do harm so we shouldn't try to make the "current" ways harder, is that what your point is? 

As far as guns preventing crime, there's tons of real data that shows guns cause a lot of accidental harm. There's certainly anecdotal evidence that they can prevent crime, but anecdotal evidence is really hard to measure and doesn't have much of a place in an objective discussion. If there is data out there showing guns preventing violence I'm all for seeing it, I've just never had it presented to me. 

To make this simple, we all agree evil people will improvise. That's the fact here we all agree to, what conclusion are you trying to get us to from there?

So let me get this right.  You believe in stricter gun laws will be a solution?  It ain't guns......it is who is behind them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting

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14 minutes ago, rico said:

So let me get this right.  You believe in stricter gun laws will be a solution?  It ain't guns......it is who is behind them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_tower_shooting

So you're going to continue to not answer my question? 

There's a lot of evidence that stricter gun laws cut down on gun crimes. If you reject that data it's up to you to explain what those countries are doing, besides stricter gun laws, to cut down on gun crimes. So what do you have?

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4 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

So you're going to continue to not answer my question? 

There's a lot of evidence that stricter gun laws cut down on gun crimes. If you reject that data it's up to you to explain what those countries are doing, besides stricter gun laws, to cut down on gun crimes. So what do you have?

What is your damn question?

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4 minutes ago, rico said:

What is your point about guns?

That much like bombs, we should have reasonable rules in place to protect people. You don't agree with that?

You've still not answered the question. Can you see how frustrating it is for you to link an article with no comments then refuse to explain what you meant? Are you advocating for guns to have restrictions in place like bombs or to get rid of restrictions around bombs?

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12 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

That much like bombs, we should have reasonable rules in place to protect people. You don't agree with that?

You've still not answered the question. Can you see how frustrating it is for you to link an article with no comments then refuse to explain what you meant? Are you advocating for guns to have restrictions in place like bombs or to get rid of restrictions around bombs?

There are no restrictions on bombs.

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22 minutes ago, rico said:

There are no restrictions on bombs.

This is demonstrably false and has already been addressed in this thread. 

Airplanes can cause a lot of harm, too, and we put restrictions in place when it happened. 

You have now gone beyond twisting facts (which we all do at times in debate) to being intentionally dishonest. Why?

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1 hour ago, rico said:

There are no restrictions on bombs.

Rico, there are all kinds of restrictions on bombs and of course they're illegal. The fact that you can build a bomb with fertilizer etc. does not change that. The fact that the FBI and other law enforcement authorities actively monitor the types of purchases that lead to bomb building, after the Okla City bombing in particular, is fact. It's one of the reasons we don't see Okla City copy cat crimes.

Frankly, it's also irrelevant to the gun discussion. Are you also advocating that anyone should be allowed to drive, because any kid can get in a car, notwithstanding that we have licensing laws and age limitations? Or that we shouldn't have laws limiting who can buy alcohol, simply because people can "find a way" to buy alcohol despite age restrictions? I hope that's not your argument.

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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Rico, there are all kinds of restrictions on bombs and of course they're illegal. The fact that you can build a bomb with fertilizer etc. does not change that. The fact that the FBI and other law enforcement authorities actively monitor the types of purchases that lead to bomb building, after the Okla City bombing in particular, is fact. It's one of the reasons we don't see Okla City copy cat crimes.

Frankly, it's also irrelevant to the gun discussion. Are you also advocating that anyone should be allowed to drive, because any kid can get in a car, notwithstanding that we have licensing laws and age limitations? Or that we shouldn't have laws limiting who can buy alcohol, simply because people can "find a way" to buy alcohol despite age restrictions? I hope that's not your argument.

You guys just dont get it.

My daughter was 12 and was in a car accident.  She was driving.

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3 hours ago, rico said:

You guys just dont get it.

My daughter was 12 and was in a car accident.  She was driving.

Rico, you don't get it. Your point seems to be laws or regulations don't matter because some will violate them. Come on, that's ridiculous. Let's do away with DWI's, you know, because some dummy's going to drive drunk anyway. Let's legalize cocaine, heroine and crack while we're at it. Good grief, of course people are going to break the law, that doesn't mean you don't need laws, reasonable limitations on activities, etc.

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Apologies in advance for the long post.  Just read 9 pages and wanted to put my thoughts out there.  I am a high school teacher, so I thought (for once!) people might want to hear my opinion.

  1. I am totally against allowing teachers/administrators to have access to guns in schools.  It might decrease the deaths from mass shootings, but the number of shootings would almost surely increase.  Pissed of at a fellow classmate?  I know so and so has a gun strapped to her waist, or locked up in her desk and I know she keeps her keys on her.  I'm a 6 foot tall 250 pound former D1 athlete, so I wouldn't be too worried about a kid beating me up, but there are plenty of 5 foot tall 110 pound teachers out there who wouldn't stand a chance.  Even if it was only kept in the principal's office.  Just get in trouble and you get a 1 on 1 meeting with the principal.  Cheap shot punch and you have access to their keys and can get the only gun in the school.  Hell, it doesn't even have to be used on someone else.  Maybe they just want to commit suicide and it is the only way they can get a gun.
  2. Who knows if more/better enforced gun regulations would work.  It might, and it might not, but I don't see how it could hurt.  Maybe in the time it takes the person to go through the extra work to get a gun they rethink it and don't go through with it.
  3. We need to think about the future with this.  This isn't an issue that is going to be fixed within the next month or even the next few years.  This is a much bigger issue than that.  Just making it harder to get a gun won't stop this craziness.  It might help cut back on it (refer to point #2), but it won't stop it.  We cannot sacrifice the long term for the betterment of the short term.  I hope nothing gets thrown out there to put a band aid on the issue to "show they care" instead of trying to actually fix the issue.
  4. Our educational system needs a major overhaul to accommodate 21st century students.  The funding schools receive is a complete joke.  My starting salary was $34,000 with a bachelor's degree in chemistry.  I could have went to work in a lab and made over double what I started out at.  Our best and brightest teachers never become teachers because they go into fields that offer better salaries.  Because of that, there are teacher shortages.  There are teachers that get into it for the summer's off.  They are just collecting a paycheck and when they have a "trouble kid," they do everything they can to get them out of their class or push them through as quickly as possible so they don't have to deal with them anymore.  Schools cannot afford to provide students with the support they need.  Our high school has one guidance counselor who deals with students on a daily basis as well as dealing with schedules and a million other things.  Oftentimes the kids who need help are being left to teachers who don't have any training or time to deal with the issues.  There needs to be mandatory training provided to schools (and not the crap training provided on other things).  I would love to see non profit groups set up to provide support to schools to help deal with kids.  It should be support that is provided to schools free of charge (or at least pretty darn cheap).
  5. I've only been out of high school for 13 years, and education is unrecognizable from when I was in school.  Students are definitely a different breed, but there are truly some remarkable kids out there.  The things kids can do these days is just mind blowing.  I've had kids build from scratch a dog collar with a built in microphone and camera that takes a picture when the dog barks, and they programmed the entire thing.  I've also had kids built a paint mixing machine and an app that allowed them to take a picture and click on something in the picture and it would mix the paint that color.  Kids can do remarkable things, and a major overhaul in education would have so many positive impacts on society.  There is such a push these days about testing.  "We don't have time for ______ because we're preparing for testing."  There isn't time to teach kids to be model citizens.  There isn't time to teach right and wrong.  Sure, those things are taught when they come up throughout the day, but even our elementary kids are being tested.  Instead of wasting time on meaningless tests to try to pretend like teachers are being held to standards, there needs to be mandatory classes teaching young kids how to be good citizens.  Teaching them morals, teaching them right vs. wrong, teaching them to give back to their community, etc.  All kids should take classes on anger management, on mental health, on how to deal with issues they are having in their lives.
  6. We live in the information age.  No amount of censuring is going to keep kids from hearing about school shootings.  Kids know shootings are an option, and that in itself is a dangerous thing.  On the flip side of that, there are tons of things out there for support.  Kids need to be educated on what their options are.  There are 24/7 hotlines for people to call.  There are support groups.  There are all kinds of things out there to support students.  There needs to be more of a push on teaching kids on how to use those support options.  We have all kinds of fliers, posters, and support material plastered around our school, but we still had a threat posted on social media recently because somebody was emotional about relationship issues.  I don't think students know what that support is, and there needs to be more of a push to use that support.
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I have not kept up with this thread.  Skimming it all today has filled me with knowledge.  I feel like addressing individuals who have posted the most in this thread but will not do so unless pmed.

I will say this.  When the forefathers wrote the foundation of our governance centuries ago, they could not have foreseen the breakdown of the family occurring.  This is the 'disease' that was referenced earlier in this thread I believe.  If mom and dad are both active in raising the children, statistics bear out the success of their efforts.  If you want me to provide links or studies, I will get around to it.  On the flip side, I am not saying that a broken home will provide only broken children.  I came from such and am not a mass murderer and have been in the same first marraige for 21 years.  The studies I mention suggest it is far more likely that individual perpetrating these crimes come from broken homes.  Children really need a guide, mentor and discipline tailored for the individual receiving said discipline, not discipline suited for the one admistering.  This treats the 'disease'. I could make the case for Christ regarding morals in this thread but will refrain from doing such.

As far as treating the symptom...  I do not see our government taking away the 2nd amendment.  As separation of church and state will be around as long as our government stands, so too will the likelihood of the 2nd amendment existing.  Something must be done to keep extra lethal firearms out of the wrong hands.  I would rather have the NRA and its members fear an infringement on the 2nd amendment than children fear going to school.  What is that infringement?  Enforcing the laws on the books today plus some sort of oversight into individuals maintaining eligibility to their right to the 2nd amendment.

Incredible discussion guys, great points made by ones I would have once called, please excuse me on this one, 'liberal'.

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So much great discussion back and forth among HSN members who may disagree on this issue but can still talk about it.  Perhaps it's our shared Hoosier fandom that keeps us together, vbg.

The mod team has discussed this repeatedly.  We would love for threads like this on important issues in our time to remain open so members can share their viewpoints on issues.  We don't want this to be a free space for members to share their political views.  Though the two have some obvious overlap, you all have done a remarkable job at cutting to the root of your arguments and discussing candidly with fellow posters who you don't see eye to eye with.

Long may it continue!

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I have been pretty vocal in this thread so to speak(pun intended).

I alluded to my daughter and that did in fact happen.  My premise is that it starts in the home.  Leave the guns out of it for now(although I am not against toughening up the gun laws).  Our children are the greatest resource we have.  But alas, something is wrong.  When did it happen?  I dunno.  But kids killing other kids is not the world I grew up in.  I just shake my head at what I see going on these days.  

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22 minutes ago, rico said:

I have been pretty vocal in this thread so to speak(pun intended).

I alluded to my daughter and that did in fact happen.  My premise is that it starts in the home.  Leave the guns out of it for now(although I am not against toughening up the gun laws).  Our children are the greatest resource we have.  But alas, something is wrong.  When did it happen?  I dunno.  But kids killing other kids is not the world I grew up in.  I just shake my head at what I see going on these days.  

So what is your solution then? You've had no problem saying gun regulations are bad but haven't offered anything to fix what you have identified as the real problem. 

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9 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

So what is your solution then? You've had no problem saying gun regulations are bad but haven't offered anything to fix what you have identified as the real problem. 

Leathernecks pretty much summed up what I would say.

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