Reacher Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: It may deserve its own thread, but I've noticed so many people against gun regulations redirect to we need more access to mental health care (we do!) then when I respond with, "great, let's make sure everyone has that!" I am told that it's a different discussion. So do we need health care for everyone to stop kids from getting shot or not? You just said we did. How is having school counselors / mental health professionals the same as everyone having health insurance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Reacher said: How is having school counselors / mental health professionals the same as everyone having health insurance? It's the logical conclusion of having the additional screening at school. Or was your point if they identify a kid in need they don't give them the mental health service they may need? Or maybe you just thought people under 18 who could kill people need the healthcare, dangerous adults don't? If healthcare is a problem, as you plainly said it was, the solution is to provide healthcare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 20 minutes ago, Reacher said: And you ineveitably ignored all the other suggestions I made as well as the situations contrary to your viewpoint. I tried to "focus on what can reasonably be done to address school and mass shootings" like you asked. I don't want to argue, but you seem to be the one taking a stand here. I'm willing to discuss the issues. Please don't tell me I do not have an open mind and am not willing to compromise. And some day I might join the NRA, but with their current record fund raising, they certainly don't need my $. I don't follow what they do nor endorse everything they do. Reacher, the bump stock comment was nothing more than an unecessary little jab and was frankly inappropriate, not to mention insensitive, and yes it clearly ignored the many school and mass shootings discussed already in this lengthy thread, including the recent Vegas mass shooting with the bump stock that clearly serves no justifiable purpose whatsoever. I agree with several of your other points, it’s just a useless and pointless discussion to throw in such pointless little jabs and I really have no desire to participate in that kind of “discussion.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 49 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: It's the logical conclusion of having the additional screening at school. Or was your point if they identify a kid in need they don't give them the mental health service they may need? Or maybe you just thought people under 18 who could kill people need the healthcare, dangerous adults don't? If healthcare is a problem, as you plainly said it was, the solution is to provide healthcare. The logical conclusion are the mental health professionals/ school counselors would provide the "healthcare" and counseling. Isn't that what they are there for? Otherwise what exactly are the mental health professionals/ school counselors going to do? Some parents may wish to provide their own counseling and that is fine. Dangerous adults are generally not doing the school shootings but that needs adressed as well. I'm no expert in that area but I'd say that is an entirely different topic requiring a different solution. In hindsight, I think it was wrong to close many of the mental hospitals and release those people on to the streets. If healthcare is a problem (as I agree it is), an alternate solution might be to fix it. IMO, the Affordable Care Act made it many times worse- all in an attempt to provide healthcare. Thast solution clearly did not work. Not saying that no one benefitted, but we should not have to make the system worse for the majority to try and benefit a minority. There are win win solutions where everyone can benefit. Lastly, don't conflate mental healthcare at schools with overall healthcare. While there is overlap, those are different issues. Going by your train of thought, you must be in favor of state sponsored mental health evaluations for everyone which would also lead to forced treatment options for those deemed in need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 49 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: Reacher, the bump stock comment was nothing more than an unecessary little jab and was frankly inappropriate, not to mention insensitive, and yes it clearly ignored the many school and mass shootings discussed already in this lengthy thread, including the recent Vegas mass shooting with the bump stock that clearly serves no justifiable purpose whatsoever. I agree with several of your other points, it’s just a useless and pointless discussion to throw in such pointless little jabs and I really have no desire to participate in that kind of “discussion.” I was not intending any type of a "jab" but rather saying there a whole host of issues that can and should be tried before restricting rights of law abiding citizens. While I do not believe in banning freedoms, that is my only rationale for for not banning bump stocks. If you ban bump stops whats next? We already know- banning high capacity magazines, purchasing ammunition, outlawing gun stores, and outlawing guns. All things already happening all around the country. I don't think banning bump stocks would move the needle 1 inch on mass shootings since most people don't use them anyways and if someone wanted to bad enough, they would create their own or get one illegally. The ban would not carry more weight than a murder charge. What is the point then? The only one I can see is continuing the assualt on law abiding citizens. I can understand you see things differently. Thats fine and thats what discussion is for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted May 22, 2018 Report Share Posted May 22, 2018 With some info now out on the TX school shooting, What worked, didn't work and what can be learned from that- What worked- Police responded in four minutes (In Parkland FL they didn't enter school until shooting stopped). Had school had police on site and or personnel with access to guns, shooter may have been stopped earlier. Texas Lt Gov said parents wished teachers were armed http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/05/18/texas-school-shooting-lt-gov-patrick-said-students-want-arm-teachers / https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/20/politics/texas-dan-patrick-cnntv/index.html. What didn't work- Armed student able to get inside school. Needs to be, and can be, prevented. See CNN article above. Kid got access to guns from his parents. Gun owners need to be more responsible with their firearms. See CNN article above. Shooter was not flagged earlier. Seems like he easily could have and someone (parents, kids, school) could have intervened. What would you add? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 As with a lot of things, I think this issue would be best addressed with a little more acceptance of the other side of the spectrum. The fact is that it is both a social issue (bullying, mental health, etc.) and an issue with weapons that are too accessible to those that choose to use them in this manner. Unfortunately, the two sides seem intent on placing the entire blame on the other. One thing I will never understand, however, are those that say "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." That is such a biased statement. Guns absolutely do kill people. In all these school shootings, if the perpetrator went to the school with a butcher knife (still a deadly weapon) instead of a gun (regardless of type of gun), then the casualties would be significantly less. That is not even a debatable statement. And, I believe a downstream impact would be, with much fewer deaths, there would be less publicity, and less copycat incidents. Whatever your position, I think we all agree something has to be done. Sometimes that involves accepting something a little different than you may believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted May 23, 2018 Report Share Posted May 23, 2018 9 hours ago, 5fouls said: As with a lot of things, I think this issue would be best addressed with a little more acceptance of the other side of the spectrum. The fact is that it is both a social issue (bullying, mental health, etc.) and an issue with weapons that are too accessible to those that choose to use them in this manner. Unfortunately, the two sides seem intent on placing the entire blame on the other. One thing I will never understand, however, are those that say "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." That is such a biased statement. Guns absolutely do kill people. In all these school shootings, if the perpetrator went to the school with a butcher knife (still a deadly weapon) instead of a gun (regardless of type of gun), then the casualties would be significantly less. That is not even a debatable statement. And, I believe a downstream impact would be, with much fewer deaths, there would be less publicity, and less copycat incidents. Whatever your position, I think we all agree something has to be done. Sometimes that involves accepting something a little different than you may believe. People do kill people by what ever means are at their disposal. Casualty rates will increase when kids start using bombs and they will. But you made some very valid points. WE ALL AGREE THAT SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE. What? I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 Active shooter at Noblesville Middle School. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 38 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: Active shooter at Noblesville Middle School. This stuff just needs to end. I just don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 Schools need to have security on par with airports. The least we can do until more long term solutions take hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 53 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Schools need to have security on par with airports. The least we can do until more long term solutions take hold. Or at least like a major building. I go into building downtown in Chicago and there are metal detectors and bags are scanned. That is routine now. Kids deserve (at least) the same level of protection as office workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 A middle school kid does not get their hands on a gun if it is properly secured. An escalation of charges against registeted gun owners for the weapons used in these shootings might be a good first step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 29 minutes ago, 5fouls said: A middle school kid does not get their hands on a gun if it is properly secured. An escalation of charges against registeted gun owners for the weapons used in these shootings might be a good first step. I agree. Growing up there were some guns lying around my house and also a wall safe. Believe it or not when I was about 14 or so I rounded them up and secured them in the safe and hid the key. I told my stepdad when he wanted one I would get it for him. He was fine with it because I did it to prevent them possibly getting stolen because some of the houses around us were being invaded when neighbors were at work and we were out in the country. A rule to follow is if you can afford the gun you can afford the secured storage space. I normally wouldn't be for punishing someone for their property being misused but in this situation I think it is deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 Back like 50 pages ago....I told how I grew up. Guns everywhere. It was a way of life in my family. I am starting to see the other side of the spectrum here. I still ain't blaming the guns, but I am blaming the parents. Just a hunch, but I do believe we got a helluva lot of adults out there that shouldn't have a firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 I'm not sure any person has a solution -- but we have to admit there is a problem. I think we also have to be willing to TRY some solutions, accept they don't work, and try other ones. The only failure is trying nothing. Sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 45 minutes ago, rico said: Back like 50 pages ago....I told how I grew up. Guns everywhere. It was a way of life in my family. I am starting to see the other side of the spectrum here. I still ain't blaming the guns, but I am blaming the parents. Just a hunch, but I do believe we got a helluva lot of adults out there that shouldn't have a firearm. 2 hours ago, 5fouls said: A middle school kid does not get their hands on a gun if it is properly secured. An escalation of charges against registeted gun owners for the weapons used in these shootings might be a good first step. In discussing the TX shooting, I mentioned holding parents responsible. They are responsible if their teen serves alcohol in their home or gets into a car accident. I'm sure this isn't the NRA position, but I'm all in favor of encouraging more responsible gun ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 I think both sides of this debate need to accept that anything is better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said: I'm not sure any person has a solution -- but we have to admit there is a problem. I think we also have to be willing to TRY some solutions, accept they don't work, and try other ones. The only failure is trying nothing. Sickening. No doubt there are a multitude of causes- and solutions. A lot of solutions are in place in certain areas. Just like anything, it is an evolving issue. Put in place protections, shooters adapt necessitating further measures. Don't see it going away. If my kids were younger, I'd seriously consider the kevlar backpacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parakeet Jones Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 I teach at a middle school in Indiana. What happened today in Noblesville really hits home for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 We got an epidemic here......our kids are this country's greatest natural resource. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 Just googling some stuff at work before I head out for the weekend. Came across this- https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/fbi-active-shooter-data-shows-importance-of-armed-citizens/ I know it's not the only solution. And unpopular in some areas. But it works. Part of the solution. Saved people here- http://www.wcjb.com/content/news/Civilian-kills-gunman-after-shooting-at-Oklahoma-restaurant-483693911.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 6 hours ago, KoB2011 said: Active shooter at Noblesville Middle School. Kid excuses himself from class. Comes back shooting. Teacher Jason Seaman is shot 3x (successful surgery and recovering according to his Mom) while tackling kid. I'm not a gun guy. Never have been. But I respect the 2nd. With that said there has to be something we can do from a security standpoint to reduce the risk (we'll never get it completely safe) of being able to put loaded pistols in your school locker. Many advocates suggest security measures/metal detectors,etc...I'm not a politician. Would never pretend to be one. But why not allow states/county governments to withhold money for schools if they don't at least put in some sort of metal detectors at all entrances. Money usually cures or motivates people to correct a wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 Each side will have hard limits -- and that's okay. What we need is to be more agreeable to compromise in the middle. Accept the other side's hard limits, work to find the areas of common agreement in the middle, and find SOLUTIONS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted May 25, 2018 Report Share Posted May 25, 2018 3 hours ago, Reacher said: Just googling some stuff at work before I head out for the weekend. Came across this- https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/fbi-active-shooter-data-shows-importance-of-armed-citizens/ I know it's not the only solution. And unpopular in some areas. But it works. Part of the solution. Saved people here- http://www.wcjb.com/content/news/Civilian-kills-gunman-after-shooting-at-Oklahoma-restaurant-483693911.html Given how close to home this hits for some this is an incredibly insensitive post. Not a single person has posted anything about taking away guns in relation to Noblesville yet here you are, doubling down for no goddamn reason. Maybe when we have a Memorial Day for kids injured and killed at schools people will have an ounce of human decency in how they talk about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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