Reacher Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 4 hours ago, KoB2011 said: I am very in favor of Switzerland's gun laws. It is 100% true they have very high gun ownership rates, but it is also 100% true that it's really hard to be allowed to get a carry permit (typically would be job related) and that you have to go through a similar purchase process for ammo as you do for buying the gun. I'm sure you didn't read all that and just leave it out on purposes, right? You are talking apples and oranges here. Since when did this turn into a concealed carry debate? That has nothing to do with the point i was trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 6 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said: In all fairness and being direct with you, I think you are researching only to try to find those articles that support your leanings and beliefs, instead of researching objectively, to look at the issues broadly, to re-examine your own beliefs or positions on the topic. HH, thanks for taking the time to put that response together. I did read these studies and can assure you I am looking at information from both sides. I've thought you were the one being selective with your info. so please assure me you have an open mind on the matter. Your source trace.org is biased against guns. Hom much have you read on the NRA website? Do you have www.gunssavelife.com bookmarked ? (I don't, btw- just came across it and thought it made a good pro gun example) Again, I'm more anti regulation than anti gun. If the crime is already illegal, how effective will more laws be? I do think there are a ton of common sense regulations that can be imposed (and have brought up some) so don't go to the extreme and say I don't want any regulation. I think family dynamics, mental, illness and most importantly the criminal justice system need help. I don't recall you weighing in on the jail to school pipeline issue i brought up. I recently saw that a 16 year old was arrested in Chicago. How many arrests do you think he had already? 10? 20? 30? ... 32 arrests. Half were felonies! How is that even possible? A 16 year old with double digit felonies? Shouldn't he be in jail? Instead we see criminals and the mentally emptied from the jails and Cook County IL closing jails. Apparently, Cook county is mass expunging juvenile records. Records are being deleted and pictures erased. What is going to happen when these criminals try to buy a gun? Garbage in to the database is not going to help. I understand most of the country isn't like this and that brings up a key point. There is no reason why different parts of the country can't have different rules. What works for Portland probably won't for rural TX. The author of the first article you linked also published a more recent one-https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319161172_Firearm_Prevalence_and_Homicide_An_Examination_of_Urban_and_Suburban_Counties In the first sentence he acknowledges the mixed research on the subject so it is obviously not a settled science. His findings are that gun prevalence predicts gun homicides in Metro areas but NOT non metro and rural areas. Makes sense to me. Maybe we need different rules based upon population density? Or could there be other factors at play? Akin to what I brought up earlier? Lets enforce our current laws. Fully prosecute straw buyers, violent felons and keep them off the streets. If we cant do this, how are we going to enforce even more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 53 minutes ago, Reacher said: You are talking apples and oranges here. Since when did this turn into a concealed carry debate? That has nothing to do with the point i was trying to make. Come on, you know it's not apples to oranges. You tried to make a quick, cheap point about a country with low gun violence with high gun ownership then intentionally left out how restrictive that country is with the rest of their gun laws. They make it very hard to have a weapon outside your home and even have a process in place to buy ammo. You don't think all of that is relevant to a discussion about gun regulations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, Reacher said: HH, thanks for taking the time to put that response together. I did read these studies and can assure you I am looking at information from both sides. I've thought you were the one being selective with your info. so please assure me you have an open mind on the matter. Your source trace.org is biased against guns. Hom much have you read on the NRA website? Do you have www.gunssavelife.com bookmarked ? (I don't, btw- just came across it and thought it made a good pro gun example) Again, I'm more anti regulation than anti gun. If the crime is already illegal, how effective will more laws be? I do think there are a ton of common sense regulations that can be imposed (and have brought up some) so don't go to the extreme and say I don't want any regulation. I think family dynamics, mental, illness and most importantly the criminal justice system need help. I don't recall you weighing in on the jail to school pipeline issue i brought up. I recently saw that a 16 year old was arrested in Chicago. How many arrests do you think he had already? 10? 20? 30? ... 32 arrests. Half were felonies! How is that even possible? A 16 year old with double digit felonies? Shouldn't he be in jail? Instead we see criminals and the mentally emptied from the jails and Cook County IL closing jails. Apparently, Cook county is mass expunging juvenile records. Records are being deleted and pictures erased. What is going to happen when these criminals try to buy a gun? Garbage in to the database is not going to help. I understand most of the country isn't like this and that brings up a key point. There is no reason why different parts of the country can't have different rules. What works for Portland probably won't for rural TX. The author of the first article you linked also published a more recent one-https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319161172_Firearm_Prevalence_and_Homicide_An_Examination_of_Urban_and_Suburban_Counties In the first sentence he acknowledges the mixed research on the subject so it is obviously not a settled science. His findings are that gun prevalence predicts gun homicides in Metro areas but NOT non metro and rural areas. Makes sense to me. Maybe we need different rules based upon population density? Or could there be other factors at play? Akin to what I brought up earlier? Lets enforce our current laws. Fully prosecute straw buyers, violent felons and keep them off the streets. If we cant do this, how are we going to enforce even more? I'm all for everyone in this country having access to the healthcare they need; mental, emotional or physical. I don't think those issues will much got gang related gun violence but I certainly think that's even more important than guns. Our healthcare system is a joke. I agree we need a major overhaul with our criminal Justice system; I just don't find that to be related to stopping mass shootings which is at the least what this thread started out about though it had devolved into a broader discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted March 25, 2018 Report Share Posted March 25, 2018 12 minutes ago, Reacher said: HH, thanks for taking the time to put that response together. I did read these studies and can assure you I am looking at information from both sides. I've thought you were the one being selective with your info. so please assure me you have an open mind on the matter. Your source trace.org is biased against guns. Hom much have you read on the NRA website? Do you have www.gunssavelife.com bookmarked ? (I don't, btw- just came across it and thought it made a good pro gun example) Again, I'm more anti regulation than anti gun. If the crime is already illegal, how effective will more laws be? I do think there are a ton of common sense regulations that can be imposed (and have brought up some) so don't go to the extreme and say I don't want any regulation. I think family dynamics, mental, illness and most importantly the criminal justice system need help. I don't recall you weighing in on the jail to school pipeline issue i brought up. I recently saw that a 16 year old was arrested in Chicago. How many arrests do you think he had already? 10? 20? 30? ... 32 arrests. Half were felonies! How is that even possible? A 16 year old with double digit felonies? Shouldn't he be in jail? Instead we see criminals and the mentally emptied from the jails and Cook County IL closing jails. Apparently, Cook county is mass expunging juvenile records. Records are being deleted and pictures erased. What is going to happen when these criminals try to buy a gun? Garbage in to the database is not going to help. I understand most of the country isn't like this and that brings up a key point. There is no reason why different parts of the country can't have different rules. What works for Portland probably won't for rural TX. The author of the first article you linked also published a more recent one-https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319161172_Firearm_Prevalence_and_Homicide_An_Examination_of_Urban_and_Suburban_Counties In the first sentence he acknowledges the mixed research on the subject so it is obviously not a settled science. His findings are that gun prevalence predicts gun homicides in Metro areas but NOT non metro and rural areas. Makes sense to me. Maybe we need different rules based upon population density? Or could there be other factors at play? Akin to what I brought up earlier? Lets enforce our current laws. Fully prosecute straw buyers, violent felons and keep them off the streets. If we cant do this, how are we going to enforce even more? Reach seriously, the NRA site?? No the studies I cited you to, which are only a few among many that actually analyze the data nationwide and worldwide, are not biased, politically or otherwise, and it’s basically a cop out to disregard neutral studies as purportedly biased (which, of course, the NRA obviously is, it’s not engaged in research other than to further it’s own obvious end. That is pointedly obvious.) There really is no honest dispute where our country ranks among gun related crime and homicide and how that ties into the prevalence of guns and the ready access to all kinds of guns here. Enforcing current laws alone (which don’t even apply to various of these weapons or their modifications, eg the bump stock which serves no purpose other than to make a weapon fire much more frequently and of course was recently used in the Vegas mass murder) is clearly inadequate. Strengthening application of some current laws is part of the solution, and an important part, but it’s not a panacea. Neither is the call to jail everyone. That takes us into considering, among the many factors there, that our jails are already overcrowded, that jailing people has at best questionable deterrent effect by itself (countless studies on that question), that jailing people is extremely expensive to the taxpayer, that our current laws don’t apply to much of what we’re talking about (age limits, high capacity magazines, bump stock, ready access to these semi-automatics to begin with, etc) so enforcing current laws better gets you a little further down the road but without actually addressing the ready access to these weapons which, on the subject of the NRA is of course exactly why the NRA backs this position. That is not politics, it’s simple money, self-interest, greed and power, all in the face of kids getting gunned down in schools. I do agree that mass expungement of juvenile records raises risk. The juvenile and adult system have always been treated differently and kept separate,because kids and young men make mistakes, or worse, but the idea is to give people the chance for adulthood - however in the context of background checks for firearm purchases etc I agree thst that information that would be relevant should remain in the system. Also agree we need to ensure straw buyers are prosecuted. And I also agree states and municipalities need to continue to have the ability, as they always have, to have their own state and local criminal laws relating to state crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrflynn03 Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 3 hours ago, KoB2011 said: Come o s, you know it's not apples to oranges. You tried to make a quick, cheap tnoint about a country with low gun violence with high gun ownership then intentionally left out how restrictive that country is with the rest of their gun laws. They make it very hard to have a weapon outside your home and even have a process in place to buy ammo. You don't think all of that is relevant to a discussion about gun regulations? It (Switzerland) Is also an enthically Homogeneous country. I personally believe demographics play a significant role. We are the most diverse nation In the world That Is why comparing the US to others Is Disengenous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 54 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said: It (Switzerland) Is also an enthically Homogeneous country. I personally believe demographics play a significant role. We are the most diverse nation In the world That Is why comparing the US to others Is Disengenous. I wonder what the gun crime rate is in this country is if broken down by race? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 20 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said: I deleted the body of your response to save space since anyone interested can see it a few posts above. It sounds like we are in agreement on a number of issues I'll comment on 2 items you raised. Thetrace.org is antigun just as the NRA is pro gun. I don't see how you you cannot see that. Find me a pro gun article on Thetrace.org. One sided does not mean objective and fair. The studies may be valid, but you are not getting both sides. You seem to be the one only looking at data that supports your narrative. Just today I checked thetrace to make sure I couldn't find any pro gun articles. The front page lead story is about the "student led" March. University of Maryland sociologist Dana Fisher conducted a study of the demographics of Saturday’s march in Washington, D.C., and discovered that only less than 10 percent of those in the crowd were under the age of 18. The Wikipedia page showed the March as sponsored by the DNC and its subsidiaries ActBlue and others. It was nothing more than a politically sponsored rally- hardly student led. And no, I do not get my news / research from the NRA. Just used it as an example. I know I haven't looked at the NRA website in the last year- probably been many years. Your study author conluded homicides are not correlated to the prevalence of guns in non metro and rural areas which I believe make up the vast majority of this country. So please do not dismiss that by saying that there "is no honest dispute" on that. Regarding the enforcement of laws... If someone is going to break the law and shoot hundreds, do you really think an extra bump stock law would have deterred him? Bump stocks which generally have not proven to be very effective and can be created by most people at home anyways? This is where we seem to be having the disconnect. Murder is already illegal. As is gun ownership by a felon. There are numerous regulations to buy a gun (agree they can be fine tuned to get rid of gun show loopholes, etc), The database is already faulty as evidenced by the military not reporting people who should be in there. I get the impression you think we can just add more rules and all the problems will be solved as if no one would consider breaking them. Find me a mass shooting that wouldn't have been prevented by existing law. We know shooters won't venture near gun free schools and movie theaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 And in other news I got another groundhog today with my AR-15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted March 26, 2018 Report Share Posted March 26, 2018 42 minutes ago, rico said: And in other news I got another groundhog today with my AR-15. Ever get any moles? I've been trying for years to get rid of them at my MI Lakehouse. They are quite the nuisance and might be a nice road trip for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 5 hours ago, Reacher said: Ever get any moles? I've been trying for years to get rid of them at my MI Lakehouse. They are quite the nuisance and might be a nice road trip for you! What lake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 Here is an article from the Washington Examiner with some stats on school shootings. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/data-on-mass-shootings-at-school-dont-live-up-to-the-hysteria Brings up the point I have thought of, and one that I would think everyone could agree with, Why isn't the attention being put on on other deaths? Nationwide protests over 15 deaths a year (on average from school shootings)? Yes, that is a trajedy but more so than the fact a summer weekend in one city (Chicago) might see the same amount? Seems to be rather selective outrage. Inner city children aren't as valuable as suburban kids? Can't wrap my mind around that inconsistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 19 minutes ago, Reacher said: Here is an article from the Washington Examiner with some stats on school shootings. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/data-on-mass-shootings-at-school-dont-live-up-to-the-hysteria Brings up the point I have thought of, and one that I would think everyone could agree with, Why isn't the attention being put on on other deaths? Nationwide protests over 15 deaths a year (on average from school shootings)? Yes, that is a trajedy but more so than the fact a summer weekend in one city (Chicago) might see the same amount? Seems to be rather selective outrage. Inner city children aren't as valuable as suburban kids? Can't wrap my mind around that inconsistency. It is simple......the anti-gun people will embrace every opportunity they get. Nobody cared when Gary had the highest murder rate in the country per capita. Where was the outrage then? I dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 On a side note I saw where Remington filed for Chapter 11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indykev Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 Its simple, stay out of my house and i'll stay out of yours. I have stayed away from this thread because i feel it doesn't belong on this board but my fellow mods disagree. We have laws already, just enforce them. But i'm for waiting periods, 48 or 72 hours. Background checks for everyone. I will even go to 21 on age of purchase if they raise the military age sign up to 21. I will even go as far as if you commit ANY crime they can take your guns and you can never own one. To piss on the 2nd amendment and tell me I can't own a type of firearm, I will never back. Like I would never take your right to say I shouldn't. Today its ban the AR15, tomorrow it will be the .22. Start with Better Law Enforcement, locking down schools. Banning a type of gun is a feel good thing for you people that dont own them, it wont fix anything. Killer's will kill. No need to respond to my 2 cents, like I said, I hate this thread and wont be looking at it again. Back to IU sports, the reason why we are all here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 2 hours ago, Indykev said: Its simple, stay out of my house and i'll stay out of yours. I have stayed away from this thread because i feel it doesn't belong on this board but my fellow mods disagree. We have laws already, just enforce them. But i'm for waiting periods, 48 or 72 hours. Background checks for everyone. I will even go to 21 on age of purchase if they raise the military age sign up to 21. I will even go as far as if you commit ANY crime they can take your guns and you can never own one. To piss on the 2nd amendment and tell me I can't own a type of firearm, I will never back. Like I would never take your right to say I shouldn't. Today its ban the AR15, tomorrow it will be the .22. Start with Better Law Enforcement, locking down schools. Banning a type of gun is a feel good thing for you people that dont own them, it wont fix anything. Killer's will kill. No need to respond to my 2 cents, like I said, I hate this thread and wont be looking at it again. Back to IU sports, the reason why we are all here. I agree with all of this except for the part of never owning a gun if you commit a crime. Too slippery a slope. Charged with a crime? Convicted? What type of crime, how long ago, etc This is a free country and people should be able to do what they want- within reason. It's that reason that is open to interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 3 hours ago, Reacher said: I agree with all of this except for the part of never owning a gun if you commit a crime. Too slippery a slope. Charged with a crime? Convicted? What type of crime, how long ago, etc This is a free country and people should be able to do what they want- within reason. It's that reason that is open to interpretation. I am pretty sure that in the state of Indiana...that a felon cannot purchase a gun. No matter what it is. Hell, I don't know I ain't got that problem. LOL But Kev did touch on something there in his post that resonates with me. "Take away the AR-15, what is next the .22?" To paraphrase. BS. The agenda is clear on what side of the fence people sit on. Take away guns and we have no way of disrupting "evil". It ain't rocket science, or shouldn't be to the anti-gun crowd. Geez, wake up America!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted March 27, 2018 Report Share Posted March 27, 2018 17 minutes ago, rico said: Take away guns and we have no way of disrupting "evil". It ain't rocket science, or shouldn't be to the anti-gun crowd. Geez, wake up America!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 Hmmmmmm..... https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/28/us/pennsylvania-school-rifle-team-nra-trnd/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 20 minutes ago, rico said: Hmmmmmm..... https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/28/us/pennsylvania-school-rifle-team-nra-trnd/index.html What's wrong with turning down money from Russia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drroogh Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 Sorry for how long this will be, but got a lot to say. Until today I have intentionally not opened this thread, however another social irritation was opened today for me so I wanted to see how HSN 3.0 handled this one before I posted on the other. First, Cong rates to HSN 3.0 for handling this difficult discussion as well as you have, you are truly the best group of people I know!!! I fully intended to read the entire 17 pages before I posted but stopped in page three, perhaps I will go back and finish later. Universally, I will comment first on the second amendment to those who think it is out dated, I point to more recently Zimbabwe, a co-worker of mine from South Africa talked of his Uncle being murdered by the nationalists in Zimbabwe because they thought they should own the farm he had tended his entire life! Or to my friend, who is a Muslim refugee from Kosovo that witnessed the execution of his best friend, and was chased out of his homeland along with his entire family! Or even more recently the Ukraine, where the overthrow of the government by the Ukrainian nationalists put every ethnic Russian at risk! We aren't talking about AR15 or AK47's, we are talking about TANKS! The need for the second amendment unfortunately is needed as much today as it was when it was written! I'm sorry, but in review of what wrote I decided that people needed to REALLY UNDERSTAND THIS!!!! Closer to home, I don't own a gun and never have, ( unless you count a couple of BB guns and an antique Sheridan pellet gun?), but I live in a place where I can run into town and not only leave the door unlocked, but at times leave the front door open!! My son, unfortunately lives in the Chicago area, he works as a construction project manager. Unless you live under a rock, you realize, Chicago is a war zone! His company made it mandatory that every employee had a carry permit and did carry! Construction sites are not just a target of petty theft, but when you are talking about 45 million dollar projects, they are a target of organized crime!! My son, feels it is necessary to carry an arsenal in his car, including an AR15!!I Can you deny my son's safety!! Had a former coworker, who when he lost his job and had no hope of another because of his alcoholism! Bought a gun and committed suicide, Spent the day in the hospital with his common law wife. Hardest day I ever had! With all of this, I am in support of 21 year old purchase limits! And I am in support of waiting lists! (perhaps my friend would be alive today, if he had been made to wait longer?) But I am totally against GUN CONTROL!! After all of this, wait until tomorrow when I start a thread about immigration! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 I was going to let this thread go but felt I needed to share some stories I've seen the last few days. Viral Facebook post from a wounded vet directed to Parkland HS student (hope everybody reads this)- Gun free London surpasses NY in murders? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/01/police-launch-murder-hunt-30th-stabbing-london-year/ Good samaritan, with concealed carry gun, saves man from beating- http://www.cwbchicago.com/2018/03/river-north-motorist-with-concealed.html HS students walkout in support of 2nd amendment- https://pjmedia.com/trending/students-stage-walkout-support-second-amendment/ This quote from Derek (above Facebook post) pretty much sums up my feelings- "The reality is humans gonna human and when humans human bad things happen sometimes but on the grand scale of things... Like 99.999% of people are good. Yes, let’s find ways to deter those .001% of people as best we can but they’re gonna accomplish their task regardless..." If someone is bent on crime / murder, they will use a bomb, vehicle, knife or other to achieve their goal. They are not going to follow any regulations / rules so why infringe on others? Drrogh, sorry to hear about your former coworker, and nobody knows, but had a gun not been accessible, he may have tried another method. Its a tough call , trying to balance rights vs safety, but I don't see guns being the primary factor in most of safety issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierFaithful Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 Honestly, that's pretty well articulated by the vet. Can't say I disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted April 10, 2018 Report Share Posted April 10, 2018 We got a new member on my site today. Somebody that moved from North Carolina to Lafayette. Goes by the handle of "swampmusic". I noticed his signature and I laughed......and then I thought about it some more. Here it is....... I once saw a movie where only the police and the military had guns. It was called "Schindler's List" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted April 10, 2018 Report Share Posted April 10, 2018 12 hours ago, rico said: We got a new member on my site today. Somebody that moved from North Carolina to Lafayette. Goes by the handle of "swampmusic". I noticed his signature and I laughed......and then I thought about it some more. Here it is....... I once saw a movie where only the police and the military had guns. It was called "Schindler's List" Solid point. We didn't have internment camps in America during that same time period despite our access to guns or anything wild like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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