So Very Sad....

[rico]

20 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

Occam's Razor. 

"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few."

Have Occam think about that for awhile.

[KoB2011]

1 minute ago, rico said:

"The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few."

Have Occam think about that for awhile.

Great quote Rico. The majority of American households down have a gun. The numbers are even more bleak when you look at individual gun ownership. 

I do not see how putting up guard rails similar to NYC or Switzerland, both of which are examples "your side" chose as good examples, could possibly be a bad thing for the needs of the many. 

[Reacher]

So much for narrative that no one needs an AR15 and a 30 round mag to defend themselves-

https://www.news4jax.com/news/30-rounds-fired-by-ar15-in-florida-home-invasion-shootout

 

[rico]

8 hours ago, Reacher said:

So much for narrative that no one needs an AR15 and a 30 round mag to defend themselves-

https://www.news4jax.com/news/30-rounds-fired-by-ar15-in-florida-home-invasion-shootout

 

Hmmmmm.  That is a weird one.

[Reacher]

The CDC did a study years ago on defensive gun use but never published the results. The information was just recently found. 

They estimate there were over 2.5 Million instances (could be much higher) of defensive gun use PER YEAR where someone defended themselves, their property or others. This is far in excess of the 100,000 number gun control advocates like to use. 

Obviously only a small fraction of these involved a discharge of the firearm. Let alone resulted in someones death. I bring this up because earlier someone was arguing that buying a gun equated to be willing to commit murder or something (not going to bother to search for it). Obviously, that couldn't be further from the truth as the overwhelming majority of the time an incident does not rise to that level.

Knowing that 2.5 million potential crimes were avoided annually by DEFENSIVE gun use, does that change anyones opinion on whether guns might be useful in schools to help prevent or, at least, limit the damage done by criminals?

[rico]

19 minutes ago, Reacher said:

The CDC did a study years ago on defensive gun use but never published the results. The information was just recently found. 

They estimate there were over 2.5 Million instances (could be much higher) of defensive gun use PER YEAR where someone defended themselves, their property or others. This is far in excess of the 100,000 number gun control advocates like to use. 

Obviously only a small fraction of these involved a discharge of the firearm. Let alone resulted in someones death. I bring this up because earlier someone was arguing that buying a gun equated to be willing to commit murder or something (not going to bother to search for it). Obviously, that couldn't be further from the truth as the overwhelming majority of the time an incident does not rise to that level.

Knowing that 2.5 million potential crimes were avoided annually by DEFENSIVE gun use, does that change anyones opinion on whether guns might be useful in schools to help prevent or, at least, limit the damage done by criminals?

Interesting question at the end.  

Of course I imagine everybody knows where I stand on guns.

I have taken many of courses/classes in my life that were taught by law enforcement.  Whether it be the CO, local police, county sheriff, or the State Police.  They taught their respective classes while "packing".  Do I think teachers should pack right here right now.....no.  They are not trained for that stuff.  Which brings up the question..should teachers today be taught these kinds of things to graduate?  I dunno.

Just random thoughts.

[Reacher]

7 minutes ago, rico said:

Interesting question at the end.  

Of course I imagine everybody knows where I stand on guns.

I have taken many of courses/classes in my life that were taught by law enforcement.  Whether it be the CO, local police, county sheriff, or the State Police.  They taught their respective classes while "packing".  Do I think teachers should pack right here right now.....no.  They are not trained for that stuff.  Which brings up the question..should teachers today be taught these kinds of things to graduate?  I dunno.

Just random thoughts.

I have a brother in law that teaches at a big suburban HS. He is comfortable with guns having grown up out west. I don't think he has had much formal training. I would be ok knowing that hew had access to a locked gun in the case of an emergency. I don't think there is a need for teachers to carry. Why not have classes for teachers on what to do and how to handle some of these situations? Seems like common sense to me. Is a high school more likely to be hit by a tornado (that everyone here in the midwest practices for) or a school shooter? Why not be prepared for both?

[rico]

18 hours ago, Reacher said:

I have a brother in law that teaches at a big suburban HS. He is comfortable with guns having grown up out west. I don't think he has had much formal training. I would be ok knowing that hew had access to a locked gun in the case of an emergency. I don't think there is a need for teachers to carry. Why not have classes for teachers on what to do and how to handle some of these situations? Seems like common sense to me. Is a high school more likely to be hit by a tornado (that everyone here in the midwest practices for) or a school shooter? Why not be prepared for both?

You touched on something there.  Locale.  I went to a small rural school.  Heck, most of my teachers were hunters of some sort of game.  They knew firearms, and knew them quite well.

[Reacher]

3 hours ago, rico said:

You touched on something there.  Locale.  I went to a small rural school.  Heck, most of my teachers were hunters of some sort of game.  They knew firearms, and knew them quite well.

And then you have Chicago schools which have long had a police presence removing officers from the schools and replacing with unarmed counselors. Do not see that working out well.

[rico]

4 hours ago, Reacher said:

And then you have Chicago schools which have long had a police presence removing officers from the schools and replacing with unarmed counselors. Do not see that working out well.

Not at all.

[5fouls]

And, it continues.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

On 5/18/2018 at 8:46 AM, 5fouls said:

And, it continues.  

Yes, it does. My secretary's daughter is friends with the sister of the shooter, who killed 8 students and 2 teachers, this was very close to home. The kid used his dad's guns. In this situation, that is at least partly on the parents, another example of guns in the home and what can happen with them. This horrible situation needs an end, the griping back and forth and taking "sides" is such an incredible empty waste. Kids are dying, meaninglessly, kids we send to school after taking so much care to keep them safe, and people argue over restricting their right to buy and carry guns, as if gun ownership is the cure to all. Let's just get past the stupid politics and stand-taking that drive the discussion and focus on what can reasonably be done to address school and mass shootings. Making guns more available is not the answer. 

[5fouls]

8 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Yes, it does. My secretary's daughter is friends with the sister of the shooter, who killed 8 students and 2 teachers, this was very close to home. The kid used his dad's guns. In this situation, that is at least partly on the parents, another example of guns in the home and what can happen with them. This horrible situation needs an end, the griping back and forth and taking "sides" is such an incredible empty waste. Kids are dying, meaninglessly, kids we send to school after taking so much care to keep them safe, and people argue over restricting their right to buy and carry guns, as if gun ownership is the cure to all. Let's just get past the stupid politics and stand-taking that drive the discussion and focus on what can reasonably be done to address school and mass shootings. Making guns more available is not the answer. 

Could not have said it better.

[Seeking6]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Yes, it does. My secretary's daughter is friends with the sister of the shooter, who killed 8 students and 2 teachers, this was very close to home. The kid used his dad's guns. In this situation, that is at least partly on the parents, another example of guns in the home and what can happen with them. This horrible situation needs an end, the griping back and forth and taking "sides" is such an incredible empty waste. Kids are dying, meaninglessly, kids we send to school after taking so much care to keep them safe, and people argue over restricting their right to buy and carry guns, as if gun ownership is the cure to all. Let's just get past the stupid politics and stand-taking that drive the discussion and focus on what can reasonably be done to address school and mass shootings. Making guns more available is not the answer. 

Politics, gun debate, 2nd amendment aside...one thing I keep reading in most (not all) of the stories following mass shootings is bullying. Life is tough enough as a teenager. So many emotional ups and downs. Not going to list them all. What I see and I'm not sure why it's so taboo to address but bullying seems to have hit all time highs. What exactly are the parents, teachers, administrators and everyone involved doing to help prevent/reduce ( I know it can't be stopped) bullying?

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, Seeking6 said:

Politics, gun debate, 2nd amendment aside...one thing I keep reading in most (not all) of the stories following mass shootings is bullying. Life is tough enough as a teenager. So many emotional ups and downs. Not going to list them all. What I see and I'm not sure why it's so taboo to address but bullying seems to have hit all time highs. What exactly are the parents, teachers, administrators and everyone involved doing to help prevent/reduce ( I know it can't be stopped) bullying?

 

Bullying, particularly Internet / social network bullying, is really harmful and probably plays a role. There is awareness of how damaging Internet bullying can be -- a number of studies reflecting it is actually more harmful than direct person-to-person bullying, and I can say that at least here in Texas there is active in-school education on bullying/Internet bullying. Kids can be flat out mean, and the internet and snap chap etc. just seem to enhance that. Definitely important to have school involvement in limiting Internet bullying. 

[Seeking6]

15 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Bullying, particularly Internet / social network bullying, is really harmful and probably plays a role. There is awareness of how damaging Internet bullying can be -- a number of studies reflecting it is actually more harmful than direct person-to-person bullying, and I can say that at least here in Texas there is active in-school education on bullying/Internet bullying. Kids can be flat out mean, and the internet and snap chap etc. just seem to enhance that. Definitely important to have school involvement in limiting Internet bullying. 

Just wanted to add...I'm not saying bullying is a key component here. It seems it's always mentioned (maybe on purpose to deflect attention from other issues). Seems like bullying is one of many pieces. I don't know where to start actually. Guns? Types of guns? Access to guns? 

The school shooting in Dixon, Illinois that is being a bit overshadowed by Texas shooting....news came out today that kids mom who has a felony conviction bought the gun. 

[rico]

This bullying thing hits close to my heart.  I am guessing it was 7 years ago my youngest tried to commit suicide by taking pills.  Had to get her stomach pumped.  Well it was all over the stupid social media thing.  Kids making fun of her online and what not.  I do believe if she could have found my guns and ammo, she would have killed somebody.  Instead, she tried taking her own life.  Just sad.  Thought I would share that.

[Reacher]

39 minutes ago, rico said:

This bullying thing hits close to my heart.  I am guessing it was 7 years ago my youngest tried to commit suicide by taking pills.  Had to get her stomach pumped.  Well it was all over the stupid social media thing.  Kids making fun of her online and what not.  I do believe if she could have found my guns and ammo, she would have killed somebody.  Instead, she tried taking her own life.  Just sad.  Thought I would share that.

Thanks for sharing. Sorry to hear about your daughter. Hope she is doing better now. Thankfully you are a responsible gun owner and kept yours locked.

To HH- Here are some things that can be done to reduce/ minimize the frequency and severity of such events-

-Increased mental health services at schools to identify and work with likely individuals. Inevitably, people who knew the shooters could see it coming.  I'd say "Born to kill" is a warning sign. I've heard kids are working on apps for such a purpose.

-Harden the schools. Metal detecters, limited access points, and yes, having firearms (active or retired police and or teachers/ administrators with quick access) on site to promptly deal with a shooter. 

-I'd go as far as to say the parents share in the responsibility here for not being responsible with their guns. Parents can be held accountable for teen parties with alcohol, bar owners responsible for overserving, why not more education on responsible gun ownership? With all sorts of locks and safes and education, there is much parents can do. I'd say it is up to them to decide if their child is responsible enough to own a firearm. Let a parent sign off on a minor owning a firearm instead of mandatorily banning such purchases.  

A ban on bump stocks or high capacity magazines would not have changed the outcome.

Seeking- No doubt a part of the issue is due to societal issues. Family, bullying, etc. Well adjusted kids are not as likely to see a mass shooting as the answer to their problems.

[rico]

4 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Thanks for sharing. Sorry to hear about your daughter. Hope she is doing better now. Thankfully you are a responsible gun owner and kept yours locked.

To HH- Here are some things that can be done to reduce/ minimize the frequency and severity of such events-

-Increased mental health services at schools to identify and work with likely individuals. Inevitably, people who knew the shooters could see it coming.  I'd say "Born to kill" is a warning sign. I've heard kids are working on apps for such a purpose.

-Harden the schools. Metal detecters, limited access points, and yes, having firearms (active or retired police and or teachers/ administrators with quick access) on site to promptly deal with a shooter. 

-I'd go as far as to say the parents share in the responsibility here for not being responsible with their guns. Parents can be held accountable for teen parties with alcohol, bar owners responsible for overserving, why not more education on responsible gun ownership? With all sorts of locks and safes and education, there is much parents can do. I'd say it is up to them to decide if their child is responsible enough to own a firearm. Let a parent sign off on a minor owning a firearm instead of mandatorily banning such purchases.  

Seeking- No doubt a part of the issue is due to societal issues. Family, bullying, etc. Well adjusted kids are not as likely to see a mass shooting as the answer to their problems.

My "Baby" is fine.  Going to become a RN.  But I dealt with the bullying issue and would like to add something to your fine post.  Kids today are "thin skinned".  Every stupid little thing because major drama.  I don't know why, but that is the way I see it.  And will add this as well......when my daughter did what she did, I questioned my parenting abilities.  I thought I got too laxed with my "Baby Girl".  

[Reacher]

26 minutes ago, rico said:

My "Baby" is fine.  Going to become a RN.  But I dealt with the bullying issue and would like to add something to your fine post.  Kids today are "thin skinned".  Every stupid little thing because major drama.  I don't know why, but that is the way I see it.  And will add this as well......when my daughter did what she did, I questioned my parenting abilities.  I thought I got too laxed with my "Baby Girl".  

Thats great! Good job security there.

I do see and hear tons of what you call "thin skinned" and what I'd term incapable of dealing with life. From not being able to handle a bad grade or the demands of an employer (or even being willing to work) to Utah (or Urah State?) putting in a cry room. The Army is having trouble finding qualified recruits. Kids today , as a whole, do not seem to be the Greatest Generation material. I know there are a ton of smart, hard working kids but they do not seem to be the majority.

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, Reacher said:

Thanks for sharing. Sorry to hear about your daughter. Hope she is doing better now. Thankfully you are a responsible gun owner and kept yours locked.

To HH-

A ban on bump stocks or high capacity magazines would not have changed the outcome.

 

Inevitably ignoring all of the many situations where it would have. This is again why I am choosing not to participate in this thread. Your personal beliefs about gun ownership, notwithstanding your repeated statements that you're not a big NRA backer, are so set in that you only track situations that feed your beliefs. It's empty discussion, count me out.

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, Reacher said:

Thanks for sharing. Sorry to hear about your daughter. Hope she is doing better now. Thankfully you are a responsible gun owner and kept yours locked.

To HH- Here are some things that can be done to reduce/ minimize the frequency and severity of such events-

-Increased mental health services at schools to identify and work with likely individuals. Inevitably, people who knew the shooters could see it coming.  I'd say "Born to kill" is a warning sign. I've heard kids are working on apps for such a purpose.

-Harden the schools. Metal detecters, limited access points, and yes, having firearms (active or retired police and or teachers/ administrators with quick access) on site to promptly deal with a shooter. 

-I'd go as far as to say the parents share in the responsibility here for not being responsible with their guns. Parents can be held accountable for teen parties with alcohol, bar owners responsible for overserving, why not more education on responsible gun ownership? With all sorts of locks and safes and education, there is much parents can do. I'd say it is up to them to decide if their child is responsible enough to own a firearm. Let a parent sign off on a minor owning a firearm instead of mandatorily banning such purchases.  

A ban on bump stocks or high capacity magazines would not have changed the outcome.

Seeking- No doubt a part of the issue is due to societal issues. Family, bullying, etc. Well adjusted kids are not as likely to see a mass shooting as the answer to their problems.

I think everything you listed that can be done are great ideas. Let's start with making sure we provide adequate health coverage, which includes mental health, to everyone.

[Reacher]

3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I think everything you listed that can be done are great ideas. Let's start with making sure we provide adequate health coverage, which includes mental health, to everyone.

Health insurance deserves its own thread. As a business owner, I have to get my own individual policy. The premium increases over the years for less and less coverage is beyond ridiculous. I'm one of those who pay so much for coverage that I effectively don't use.  Hoping this year brings some association plans. Have to cut down the regulations!

[KoB2011]

5 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Health insurance deserves its own thread. As a business owner, I have to get my own individual policy. The premium increases over the years for less and less coverage is beyond ridiculous. I'm one of those who pay so much for coverage that I effectively don't use.  Hoping this year brings some association plans. Have to cut down the regulations!

It may deserve its own thread, but I've noticed so many people against gun regulations redirect to we need more access to mental health care (we do!) then when I respond with, "great, let's make sure everyone has that!" I am told that it's a different discussion. 

So do we need health care for everyone to stop kids from getting shot or not? You just said we did. 

[Reacher]

29 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Inevitably ignoring all of the many situations where it would have. This is again why I am choosing not to participate in this thread. Your personal beliefs about gun ownership, notwithstanding your repeated statements that you're not a big NRA backer, are so set in that you only track situations that feed your beliefs. It's empty discussion, count me out.

And you ineveitably ignored all the other suggestions I made as well as the situations contrary to your viewpoint. I tried to "focus on what can reasonably be done to address school and mass shootings" like you asked. I don't want to argue, but you seem to be the one taking a stand here. I'm willing to discuss the issues. Please don't tell me I do not have an open mind and am not willing to compromise. And some day I might join the NRA, but with their current record fund raising, they certainly don't need my $. I don't follow what they do nor endorse everything they do.