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FBI wiretaps show Sean Miller discussing $100k payments.


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16 minutes ago, Hoosier987 said:

Nothing to see here, Saint Crean and his disciples would never have even dreamed of breaking a single NCAA regulation.

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40 minutes ago, Hoosier987 said:

So the 90 day report in 2014 has him meeting with someone from IU.  And what big time recruit did we land for 2015?  Thomas Bryant.   Hope that's just coincidence but...  

Go Hoosiers!!!

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55 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Nothing to see here, Saint Crean and his disciples would never have even dreamed of breaking a single NCAA regulation.

I believe Crean definitely dipped his toe in the gray area, if not jumping fully in. I might have my timeline/some names off a bit, but I remember a game in 2015, I believe it was in late-January or February against MSU. IU had missed the tournament the year before and was struggling (it was the year we had Hartman playing center), and the fans were beginning to boo Crean during games. It was getting pretty ugly, and then all of the sudden I believe Thomas Bryant and Thon Maker, and I don't recall but maybe a 3rd recruit (Ray Kabongo?) as well, showed up at that MSU game. 

Obviously, neither is from Indiana or within an easy driving distance, but my recollection is that these weren't visits that seemed scheduled (by that I mean they hadn't been publicized), they kind of took fans/media by surprise. I've always felt those visits that day were a move to calm the rising storm. I don't think a kid like Thon Maker especially just shows up randomly. 

Again, I might have some of the details off, but that's what I remember. 

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13 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I believe Crean definitely dipped his toe in the gray area, if not jumping fully in. I might have my timeline/some names off a bit, but I remember a game in 2015, I believe it was in late-January or February against MSU. IU had missed the tournament the year before and was struggling (it was the year we had Hartman playing center), and the fans were beginning to boo Crean during games. It was getting pretty ugly, and then all of the sudden I believe Thomas Bryant and Thon Maker, and I don't recall but maybe a 3rd recruit (Ray Kabongo?) as well, showed up at that MSU game. 

Obviously, neither is from Indiana or within an easy driving distance, but my recollection is that these weren't visits that seemed scheduled (by that I mean they hadn't been publicized), they kind of took fans/media by surprise. I've always felt those visits that day were a move to calm the rising storm. I don't think a kid like Thon Maker especially just shows up randomly. 

Again, I might have some of the details off, but that's what I remember. 

Yep, I remember that happening exactly how you described it.  Like I’ve been saying, Crean ran a relatively clean program, but he was undoubtedly “dirty,” just like every other coach of a major program is/was.

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2 hours ago, BGleas said:

I believe Crean definitely dipped his toe in the gray area, if not jumping fully in. I might have my timeline/some names off a bit, but I remember a game in 2015, I believe it was in late-January or February against MSU. IU had missed the tournament the year before and was struggling (it was the year we had Hartman playing center), and the fans were beginning to boo Crean during games. It was getting pretty ugly, and then all of the sudden I believe Thomas Bryant and Thon Maker, and I don't recall but maybe a 3rd recruit (Ray Kabongo?) as well, showed up at that MSU game. 

Obviously, neither is from Indiana or within an easy driving distance, but my recollection is that these weren't visits that seemed scheduled (by that I mean they hadn't been publicized), they kind of took fans/media by surprise. I've always felt those visits that day were a move to calm the rising storm. I don't think a kid like Thon Maker especially just shows up randomly. 

Again, I might have some of the details off, but that's what I remember. 

I don't really think Crean went of that line and he use to always bring up things about how something fishy was going on after we lost some recruits.

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3 hours ago, Hoosier987 said:

Again, there's nothing here. All this article says, which has previously been reported, is that there were meetings with Adidas schools, which included IN. And we know Crean and staff backed off recruits, publicly, when something wasn't right. The "Saint Crean" stuff is silly. There's literally nothing out there reflecting any actual "dirty" recruiting, and many examples of IU backing off specific prospects when things were fishy, including as publicly stated by Crean during the recruitments. And again the context is Crean being brought in after IU's self-reported phone-gate recruiting violations by Sampson. He ran a clean program, because that was what he was hired to do. Why that is so hard to accept is beyond me.

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1 hour ago, Inequality said:

If so, he wasn’t very good at it. 

Like I said earlier, I’m sure he ran a clean program relative to others like Louisville, Kansas, UK, etc.  And that obviously hurt him with some recruits.  But it’s a “pay to play” system, and he was playing the game just like everyone else.  Guys like Vonleh and Maker would never have even considered IU otherwise.  Finding the right balance of just enough cheating without going overboard is what all major college basketball coaches have to do.  Why that is so hard to accept is beyond me.

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1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

I don't really think Crean went of that line and he use to always bring up things about how something fishy was going on after we lost some recruits.

Like FW_Hoosier has said, I think relative to his peers Crean ran a pretty clean program, but I also think that you don't get two 5* bigs, one being a guy like Thon Maker, to show up at a game last minute when it's almost your worst week as a coach, without something going on. 

Just purely my guess, but I think maybe Crean was backed into a corner a bit at this moment and did what he had to do. I'm also not suggesting that Crean was standing there with a bag of cash when Maker arrived, by no means is that what I'm saying, but I think we also have to be open to thinking that maybe some calls were made (to Adidas maybe?) to make these visits happen. 

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25 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Like FW_Hoosier has said, I think relative to his peers Crean ran a pretty clean program, but I also think that you don't get two 5* bigs, one being a guy like Thon Maker, to show up at a game last minute when it's almost your worst week as a coach, without something going on. 

Just purely my guess, but I think maybe Crean was backed into a corner a bit at this moment and did what he had to do. I'm also not suggesting that Crean was standing there with a bag of cash when Maker arrived, by no means is that what I'm saying, but I think we also have to be open to thinking that maybe some calls were made (to Adidas maybe?) to make these visits happen. 

It’s quite plausible that Crean knew Adidas was funneling players and chose a “dont ask dont tell” approach when kids like Maker and Vonleh began showing interest but I highly doubt Bryant was held in the same esteem and had shoe company suitors.  

What we do know is Crean routinely backed off kids who asked for money so it doesn’t make sense to assume Crean was dirty for a select few only to be holier than thou for the majority. That doesn’t make sense.

Until an ounce of evidence pops up or a former recruit says he got paid and Crean knew, there’s no reason to assume Crean was dirty. I don’t understand why a few here are so hell bent on convincing the rest it happened other than simply having an axe to grind. 

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5 minutes ago, Hoosier82 said:

It’s quite plausible that Crean knew Adidas was funneling players and chose a “dont ask dont tell” approach when kids like Maker and Vonleh began showing interest but I highly doubt Bryant was held in the same esteem and had shoe company suitors.  

What we do know is Crean routinely backed off kids who asked for money so it doesn’t make sense to assume Crean was dirty for a select few only to be holier than thou for the majority. That doesn’t make sense.

Until an ounce of evidence pops up or a former recruit says he got paid and Crean knew, there’s no reason to assume Crean was dirty. I don’t understand why a few here are so hell bent on convincing the rest it happened other than simply having an axe to grind. 

I'm not "hell bent" on anything. For the most part, I've been a Crean supporter. 

You're being naive if you think Bryant was not someone that would attract shoe company suitors. He was a 5* McDonald's AA. Some of these reports include kids ranked far lower than Bryant receiving thousands of dollars. Maryland is reported to have paid Silvio De Sousa $60,000, and they got OUTBID. Bryant was a higher ranked recruit. Of course, he could command dollars, and let's also look at his other two main schools, Kentucky and Syracuse.

I also think you're taking the context out of what I meant. As I said, I don't think Crean was running around with bags of cash during his IU tenure. I think he largely ran as clean of a program as you can at this level. But in this case (Bryant and Maker showing up apparently last-minute) those guys showing up during one of Crean's worst weeks as IU's coach doesn't seem random to me. 

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2 minutes ago, IUwins0708 said:

IU has zero worries here.  If not for the Bernie Fine (I think) scandal Thomas was Cuse’ bound.  After that all transpired he and to an extent his mother didn’t want him anywhere near Syracuse 

Right. The speculation above about Bryant ignores the context of his actual recruitment. I don't remember the specifics about Thon and am too lazy (busy) to look it up now, but as I recall we/Crean were like the first school and coach on him and had a long dialogue. 

End point here for me at this point, there is literally zero evidence, absolutely nothing, pointing to IU engaging in any illegal recruiting, and the overall context was Crean cleaning up the program after recruiting improprieties that sank the program. You can't just disregard that context and assume Crean was doing something underhanded. It goes directly against what he was actually doing, which spanned the recruiting front through academics.

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37 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Right. The speculation above about Bryant ignores the context of his actual recruitment. I don't remember the specifics about Thon and am too lazy (busy) to look it up now, but as I recall we/Crean were like the first school and coach on him and had a long dialogue. 

End point here for me at this point, there is literally zero evidence, absolutely nothing, pointing to IU engaging in any illegal recruiting, and the overall context was Crean cleaning up the program after recruiting improprieties that sank the program. You can't just disregard that context and assume Crean was doing something underhanded. It goes directly against what he was actually doing, which spanned the recruiting front through academics.

I understand all the context around Bryant's recruitment, but context cuts both ways. There's plenty of context on the flip-side. Maker's recruitment was definitely a shady endevour, and if I remember correctly IU hadn't actually been mentioned with him as much prior to him sort of randomly showing up to that game. 

Again, just to be crystal, crystal clear, I think Tom Crean was about as clean as you can get at this level of college basketball. I think he lead a clear charge at IU to do it without cheating coming out of the Sampson scandal. I think he didn't cut corners that most other coaches at this level would have. I also think he potentially got into desperation mode that season (14-15) when didn't make the tournament the year before, was on the bubble that year, had absolutely no big man on his roster, several players in trouble with drugs, etc., and fans beginning to boo him routinely. I'm not even saying I think money changed hands, or if it did that Crean directly knew about it. I'm saying that IMO something happened, beyond just really good recruiting, to get those guys, Maker in particular, on campus that day. 

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I also am not worried about IU or Crean in terms of the FBI investigation. Like I said, I think Crean was about as clean as you can get. I just think in this one case (Maker/Bryant visit), given what we know now with the FBI scandal, that it's pretty logical to connect some dots. 

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48 minutes ago, IUwins0708 said:

IU has zero worries here.  If not for the Bernie Fine (I think) scandal Thomas was Cuse’ bound.  After that all transpired he and to an extent his mother didn’t want him anywhere near Syracuse 

It had nothing to do with the Bernie Fine thing. 

"The NCAA said that the violations, which were self-reported by Syracuse and dated back to 2001, included academic misconduct, extra benefits, failure to follow the drug-testing policy and impermissible booster activity. Other violations included impermissible academic assistance and services, Boeheim's failure to promote an atmosphere of compliance and monitor his staff, and the school's lack of control over its athletics program."

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12432471/ncaa-suspends-jim-boeheim-nine-games-cuts-syracuse-orange-scholarships

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13 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It had nothing to do with the Bernie Fine thing. 

"The NCAA said that the violations, which were self-reported by Syracuse and dated back to 2001, included academic misconduct, extra benefits, failure to follow the drug-testing policy and impermissible booster activity. Other violations included impermissible academic assistance and services, Boeheim's failure to promote an atmosphere of compliance and monitor his staff, and the school's lack of control over its athletics program."

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/12432471/ncaa-suspends-jim-boeheim-nine-games-cuts-syracuse-orange-scholarships

Right, but, rather, Bryant decided to make the trip to the March 2015 game immediately after Cuse was hit was sanctions the Friday before -- and this was after Bryant had already taken an OV to IU. No reason to suspect anything nefarious -- https://www.scout.com/Article/Maker-Bryant-take-in-IU-Michigan-State-game-105194032/

 

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22 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I understand all the context around Bryant's recruitment, but context cuts both ways. There's plenty of context on the flip-side. Maker's recruitment was definitely a shady endevour, and if I remember correctly IU hadn't actually been mentioned with him as much prior to him sort of randomly showing up to that game. 

Again, just to be crystal, crystal clear, I think Tom Crean was about as clean as you can get at this level of college basketball. I think he lead a clear charge at IU to do it without cheating coming out of the Sampson scandal. I think he didn't cut corners that most other coaches at this level would have. I also think he potentially got into desperation mode that season (14-15) when didn't make the tournament the year before, was on the bubble that year, had absolutely no big man on his roster, several players in trouble with drugs, etc., and fans beginning to boo him routinely. I'm not even saying I think money changed hands, or if it did that Crean directly knew about it. I'm saying that IMO something happened, beyond just really good recruiting, to get those guys, Maker in particular, on campus that day. 

Nope, as mentioned IU/Crean were in the very early 'hunt' for Maker, and his brother, and had been heavily involved in Maker's recruiting for about a year before the March 2015 game, as had been publicly reported. https://www.courier-journal.com/story/sports/recruiting/kentucky/2014/10/12/thon-maker-guardian-calls-uk-combine-game-changer/17152475/

More 'context' is that game was IU's final in the Hall of the season, it was the last chance that season to bring Maker in during IU's push for him in 2015

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2 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Right, but, rather, Bryant decided to make the trip to the March 2015 game immediately after Cuse was hit was sanctions the Friday before -- and this was after Bryant had already taken an OV to IU. No reason to suspect anything nefarious -- https://www.scout.com/Article/Maker-Bryant-take-in-IU-Michigan-State-game-105194032/

 

Again, given what we now know about how deep these payments from Adidas and other shoe companies go, there's plenty of reason to suspect. 

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Just now, BGleas said:

Again, given what we now know about how deep these payments from Adidas and other shoe companies go, there's plenty of reason to suspect. 

I disagree Gleas, there's literally nothing there except for a skeptics view. When you are directed to what actually happened, that Cuse was hit with sanctions and then he decides to go the final game of the team making a push for him, you assume something nefarious. Evidence is one thing, context and circumstances. 

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4 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I disagree Gleas, there's literally nothing there except for a skeptics view. When you are directed to what actually happened, that Cuse was hit with sanctions and then he decides to go the final game of the team making a push for him, you assume something nefarious. Evidence is one thing, context and circumstances. 

I would say you're ignoring a whole lot of context and circumstance yourself. I think assuming any players at the level of Maker and Bryant being clean is taking a pretty naive view of the recruiting landscape at that time. We now know that the majority of top kids were getting paid by various sources (shoe companies, prep schools, and AAU programs) and that with Maker you certainly have a shady recruitment.  

I'll say it once again, I don't think Tom Crean was paying players. I think Tom Crean was one of the cleanest coaches you could find at this level. But, it certainly raises some flags that those two guys, especially Maker, showed up sort of under-the-radar (given how closely the media follows visits/recruiting) during arguably Crean's worst week as IU's coach (other than the week he got fired).

I would be absolutely shocked if Thon Maker wasn't getting money from Adidas during his recruitment, and that while I think none of it was directed by or with knowledge from IU/Crean, it probably played a part in getting him on campus. 

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

I would say you're ignoring a whole lot of context and circumstance yourself. I think assuming any players at the level of Maker and Bryant being clean is taking a pretty naive view of the recruiting landscape at that time. We now know that the majority of top kids were getting paid by various sources (shoe companies, prep schools, and AAU programs) and that with Maker you certainly have a shady recruitment.  

I'll say it once again, I don't think Tom Crean was paying players. I think Tom Crean was one of the cleanest coaches you could find at this level. But, it certainly raises some flags that those two guys, especially Maker, showed up sort of under-the-radar (given how closely the media follows visits/recruiting) during arguably Crean's worst week as IU's coach (other than the week he got fired).

I would be absolutely shocked if Thon Maker wasn't getting money from Adidas during his recruitment, and that while I think none of it was directed by or with knowledge from IU/Crean, it probably played a part in getting him on campus. 

So you say I'm being naive, while I would say you're being pessimistic. vbg. I'm not trying to tell you what to think, Gleas, it's fair to take your position, I just disagree, and believe that, as reflected above, your belief is not supported by any evidence, it's all conjecture based on the "level of" these recruits. Might there be some payment from Adidas folks that helped get Thon to visit IU? Who knows. So far there is zero evidence of that, and, regardless, that wouldn't make Crean/IU complicit.

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2 hours ago, BGleas said:

I'm not "hell bent" on anything. For the most part, I've been a Crean supporter. 

You're being naive if you think Bryant was not someone that would attract shoe company suitors. He was a 5* McDonald's AA. Some of these reports include kids ranked far lower than Bryant receiving thousands of dollars. Maryland is reported to have paid Silvio De Sousa $60,000, and they got OUTBID. Bryant was a higher ranked recruit. Of course, he could command dollars, and let's also look at his other two main schools, Kentucky and Syracuse.

I also think you're taking the context out of what I meant. As I said, I don't think Crean was running around with bags of cash during his IU tenure. I think he largely ran as clean of a program as you can at this level. But in this case (Bryant and Maker showing up apparently last-minute) those guys showing up during one of Crean's worst weeks as IU's coach doesn't seem random to me. 

I wasn't referring to you specifically as being "hell bent". It just the vibe I get from a handful of posters. My apologies for the confusion but my post wasn't just directed at you or the post I quoted. It was covering the larger aspect of the topic. Are you saying Maryland offered De Sousa $60k or a shoe company did? There's a big difference. In Bryant's case, 6'10 centers don't get shoe deals in the NBA, especially one's with no outside game and limited athleticism.  So it doesn't make sense to me why Adidas would be giving him cash when they know how unlikely it will be that they'd even offer the kid a shoe deal in the future. 

As for the visits, I understand why Bryant all the sudden showed interest (as others have stated). He was Cuse all the way until things went south and he needed a school who had an immediate need. IU fit the bill. With Thon, who knows but it's not breaking the rules to let a kid visit your school who's taking money from a shoe company. We didn't sign him and I can guarantee IU didn't give him any money so it's a moot point. 

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6 minutes ago, Hoosier82 said:

I wasn't referring to you specifically as being "hell bent". It just the vibe I get from a handful of posters. My apologies for the confusion but my post wasn't just directed at you or the post I quoted. It was covering the larger aspect of the topic. Are you saying Maryland offered De Sousa $60k or a shoe company did? There's a big difference. In Bryant's case, 6'10 centers don't get shoe deals in the NBA, especially one's with no outside game and limited athleticism.  So it doesn't make sense to me why Adidas would be giving him cash when they know how unlikely it will be that they'd even offer the kid a shoe deal in the future. 

As for the visits, I understand why Bryant all the sudden showed interest (as others have stated). He was Cuse all the way until things went south and he needed a school who had an immediate need. IU fit the bill. With Thon, who knows but it's not breaking the rules to let a kid visit your school who's taking money from a shoe company. We didn't sign him and I can guarantee IU didn't give him any money so it's a moot point. 

You don't think elite, 5* big men get paid by shoe companies? We have testimony under oath that De Sousa got $60k from Under Armour and then had to pay it back because Adidas/KU outbid them, and he's was ranked somewhere in the 30's or 40's. I never even heard of him until last year during the season when all this started coming out, and he got that much money? We know Deandre Ayton got 6 figures. Joel Embiid just signed a huge deal with Under Armour. If you're a high-level recruit, regardless of position, you can get paid. 

I don't know if Bryant took money or not, but you have to have your head buried in the sand if you don't think he could have if he wanted to. 

As far as Bryant on the court, not sure what you mean by 'no outside game'? His most attractive quality as a player is that he's a center that can spread the floor. He shot 38% from 3 his sophomore year and last year in the G-League, from NBA range, shot 36%. 

As I've said numerous times, I don't think Tom Crean paid anyone personally. I don't think he ever signed off on anyone getting paid. I think he had recruits that got paid and tried to get other recruits that got paid. I think Maker being as interested as he appeared to be in IU was due to his Adidas ties and I'm sure he got paid by Adidas. I don't know how he ended up at that game vs. MSU, but I think Adidas was involved in that. Again, that doesn't mean Tom Crean called and said "pay him what you have to to get him on campus", it just means that I don't think he's at IU that day without Adidas' involvement and probably in some way IU letting them know they wanted him there. 

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