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Immigration!


Drroogh
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Okay, after my rant on the So Very Sad thread yesterday, I posted the start of this thread about Immigration. I'll start by saying I think it's great working in a department that is about as diverse as you can imagine. I enjoy learning about different cultures and how we can be similar and different while still just being normal people. Working for a Japanese company, we obviously have Japanese citizens in the department, but we also have LEGAL immigrants from Mexico, Puerto Rico and Kosovo. We also have a first generation American with her parents originally from India and a guy who was born in England. So having dual citizenship. The rest of the department is about 50/50 whites and blacks. Can't get much more diverse than that in a department with only 18 people.

Now on to the rant part, and I'll even use two of the rant's from two of our LEGAL immigrants. What got me started, was this 1000 person convoy of so called "people without borders" on their way through Mexico expecting to enter the US ILLEGALY. First rant comes from my friend who entered America as a refugee from Kosovo! He has 'gone off' on the topic of people disrespecting the American flag!!! He understands after going through the American Citizenship process what it truly stands for! He also understands just how much better living in America is than in other countries! He is truly the kind of immigrant we need in America! My part of the rant, is that if you find the American Flag to be offensive then go find some other country to live in where you can live without the offensive American flag. 

Second rant from the girl who is a LEGAL immigrant from Mexico. She 'hates' ILLEGAL immigration! She hasn't gone into detail about it but the basis seems to be knowing what she had to go through to become a LEGAL immigrant, it Pis.... her off that others are allowed to enter ILLEGALLY!

This segues into my personal rant, DRROOGH is Russian for 'friend', I chose this out of respect for my best friend in the whole world. She is Russian, and because our two countries can't seem to get along and other reasoning's, like because she is a single woman there is a high risk she may overextend her stay and therefore become an ILLEGAL immigrant! Heaven Forbid!!! We can't even seem to get her a tourist visa!!!!!!!!!!!! How do you think this makes me feel about ILLEGAL immigration?

Now not to just rant, some suggestions. I think we need to figure out how to streamline and hasten the Legal immigration process for those that truly want to come to American AND except American culture without wanting to set up the idiot 'no go zones' like they have in Europe. That's just another form of rejecting America while living in it. I'm sorry "GO Home if you don't like American culture"! We also, need to figure out a way to make the vetting process much more effective so that those who are in the group that refuses to except America and American culture are kept out! This does not mean rejecting people based on religion and such, my friend from Kosovo that loves living in America is Muslim by the way!

Enough of my rant, have at it HSN!:cheers:

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^^^ Couldn't agree more. I have a Jewish Russian client who came here 40 years ago. He sees the same stuff happening here that forced him out of Russia and is totally disgusted.  Sad that many immigrants appreciate America more than most of us. 

I'll add that economically, more unskilled workers (increased supply) keeps wages down- especially for the poorest (primarily blacks and Hispanics)  with whom they are competing with for jobs. https://fairus.org/issue/workforce-economy/lower-wages-american-workers

Lastly, what bothers me the most is how many illegals are voting. There are so many counties with more voters than the actual population. https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2017/08/11/america-may-35-million-voters-eligible-adult-citizens I hope nobody brings up the lack of prosecutions for voter fraud as there are prosecutions and just because nobody is charged has no correlation to whether the crime occurred. 

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To me this is a difficult issue to tackle.  I have no qualms with people wanting to better their lives living here but doing it the right way.  At the same time, the world we live in is at risk.  The more harm that befalls our country from immigrants, the tighter the restrictions will become.  I am going to have to think about it some more.

 

Btw.......great topic.

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5 minutes ago, rico said:

To me this is a difficult issue to tackle.  I have no qualms with people wanting to better their lives living here but doing it the right way.  At the same time, the world we live in is at risk.  The more harm that befalls our country from immigrants, the tighter the restrictions will become.  I am going to have to think about it some more.

 

Btw.......great topic.

I don't understand the argument that illegal immigration is ok. Follow the rules like most of our ancestors. If you don't like the rules, change the rules. 

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Immigration is complicated.  I work in a microbiology lab in a food production facility.  All of non lab non management people are Hispanic. They are good people and I have got to know few. Most have been here 5-10 years. I feel they deserve a path to citizenship with some tax penalty etc.

My problem is with refugees.  These people are being used as tools by a particular party to dilute the voting base of the opposite party.

 I grew up in washington, in.  I graduated in 2003. At that time we had only had mexican immigrants.  

For example, Before the earthquake in Haiti I had never seen a Haitian person before.  A couple years after that earthquake they are around town and even pushed the Hispanics out of the local turkey plant.  

I feel a party (D) is using the immigration/refugee population as a tool to turn rural areas from red to purple then blue.

Edited by mrflynn03
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8 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

Can we at least recognize illegal immigration is very broad and it isn't only unskilled workers?

Not sure of the point you are trying to make. With such a broad population, there are never absolutes. Are there illegal immigrant millionaires? People that add to the economy? Of course. Are there felons? Of course. I think it is fair to say the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants and refugees are non college educated, low skilled workers.

Yes, our legal immigration system needs to be improved and there should be work visas  (with economic studies analyzing the impact on wages). I think all people coming to the US (tourists, student visas, workers, etc) should have biometric info tracked by a non government entity (Google could probably do this easily). I can't trust the government to maintain anything. Just look at how many government databases have been hacked.  

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6 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Not sure of the point you are trying to make. With such a broad population, there are never absolutes. Are there illegal immigrant millionaires? People that add to the economy? Of course. Are there felons? Of course. I think it is fair to say the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants and refugees are non college educated, low skilled workers.

Yes, our legal immigration system needs to be improved and there should be work visas  (with economic studies analyzing the impact on wages). I think all people coming to the US (tourists, student visas, workers, etc) should have biometric info tracked by a non government entity (Google could probably do this easily). I can't trust the government to maintain anything. Just look at how many government databases have been hacked.  

Perhaps we should have a different discussion regarding DACA, but no I will not agree that the overwhelming majority fit your description. 

I don't understand how refugees factor into this discussion at all, what am I missing? 

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56 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Perhaps we should have a different discussion regarding DACA, but no I will not agree that the overwhelming majority fit your description. 

I don't understand how refugees factor into this discussion at all, what am I missing? 

Mr Flynn brought up refugees. It is another source of people entering this country. The thread topic is Immigration. I believe refugees are immigrants aren't they? I know some are only meant to be temporary but the practice has been to allow them to stay indefinitely. 

DACA is it's own subcategory. Just like the minor children that continue to come and are not technically DACA. 

What evidence do you have that the majotity of illegal immigrants have skills? Earn more that $15-20/ hour? Aside from the workers and students that overstay their visas. 

The facts I have seen are that 40% (liberal claim) and 55% (conservative claim) of illegals are receiving welfare benefits of some kind. "California, with 12% of the American population, is home today to about one in three of the nation's welfare recipients" from http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-jackson-california-poverty-20180114-story.html.

Which brings up the point- If all this immigration is so wonderful, why does CA now have the most poverty in the US? Why do 80% of Europeans want greater restrictions on immigration? We should learn from the unfolding disasters in France, London, Germany, etc that unassimilated immigrants are problematic. We can only take in so many and they need time to assimilate. 

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21 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Mr Flynn brought up refugees. It is another source of people entering this country. The thread topic is Immigration. I believe refugees are immigrants aren't they? I know some are only meant to be temporary but the practice has been to allow them to stay indefinitely. 

DACA is it's own subcategory. Just like the minor children that continue to come and are not technically DACA. 

What evidence do you have that the majotity of illegal immigrants have skills? Earn more that $15-20/ hour? Aside from the workers and students that overstay their visas. 

The facts I have seen are that 40% (liberal claim) and 55% (conservative claim) of illegals are receiving welfare benefits of some kind. "California, with 12% of the American population, is home today to about one in three of the nation's welfare recipients" from http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-jackson-california-poverty-20180114-story.html.

Which brings up the point- If all this immigration is so wonderful, why does CA now have the most poverty in the US? Why do 80% of Europeans want greater restrictions on immigration? We should learn from the unfolding disasters in France, London, Germany, etc that unassimilated immigrants are problematic. We can only take in so many and they need time to assimilate. 

Just because someone brought up refugees doesn't mean this is about refugees. It was implied that they can come in and swing elections which is verifiably false. People can't vote just because they step foot on American soil.

Glad we can agree DACA deserves its own subcategory, I think that would swing the skilled vs. unskilled labor. We still need people to work those jobs, however. What's the best solution? Amnesty with a path to citizenship or to deport them all? 

I'm not looking to debate partisan politics nor have I said anything remotely close that immigration is a wonderful thing. I do think it should have restrictions on it; that doesn't fix any issues with those who are already here, however. It is interesting that now we want to take Europe's lead, I thought America was unique and had to do things our way? 

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29 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

 It was implied that they can come in and swing elections which is verifiably false. People can't vote just because they step foot on American soil.

 

Oh really?  False?  Hmmmmmm.  People have voted that were 6' under soil.

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Watching this thread very closely.  We appreciate you, fellow Hoosier crazies, and the different and varied perspectives you bring!

As a note: everyone in this thread is considered "on notice" for potential rule breaking comments.  Please always avoid personally attacking another poster.  In addition, please try to keep the discussion on the merits of the issue -- the impacts for our country, the people involved, how you were perhaps personally impacted -- and away from partisan left vs right debates.  

Especially in the offseason, the mod team has (at least for now) come to the conclusion that threads like this are a good way to pass the time and, in my own opinion, a good way for a diverse member group to share their opinions and experiences.  Forums are called as such because of the Romans --  an area where, for millennia, people came together to discuss shared interests.  They debated the most important of topics with grace and civility.  Let's all make sure we do honor to the standard they set.

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First generation immigrants may not be able to vote but their kids that are born here are american citizens by birthright. I was thinking of 2nd and subsequent generations having established voting rights.  

I work closely with a girl from Honduras because of her being bilingual so our Quality dept. can better communicate with production personnel.  She trusts me enough to have admitted she is illegal and most everyone here from mostly Honduras and Guatemala are too. She has told me they will pay someone several thousand dollars for paperwork, ssn, so when applying for jobs they appear to be legal.  She also said some of them have been able to vote.

There are quite a few here that have been in the US for a few years, some a decade or more like my coworker, who would like to be citizens and want to stay. I feel like these people are overlooked because they can't admit their status for fear of deportation so they stay illegal.  I don't think there should be blanket amnesty but if they are here for awhile, want to stay, and are contributing there should be a path for them. 

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3 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

. What's the best solution? Amnesty with a path to citizenship or to deport them all? 

What do you think is fair? 

Would having to go through the legal process be fair? Are you OK excluding those with criminal records? 

As far as the voting, do a little research. I have second hand knowledge from someone I respect about busses of voters being sent from Chicago to WI. Believe the same happened to Iowa. Not saying those were illegals. Do know that illegals have taken over some towns in CA. Will see if I can find those articles. 

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5 minutes ago, Reacher said:

What do you think is fair? 

Would having to go through the legal process be fair? Are you OK excluding those with criminal records? 

As far as the voting, do a little research. I have second hand knowledge from someone I respect about busses of voters being sent from Chicago to WI. Believe the same happened to Iowa. Not saying those were illegals. Do know that illegals have taken over some towns in CA. Will see if I can find those articles. 

I think amnesty, with some prerequisites needing to be met to qualify, and a path to citizenship is fair and reasonable. 

I really don't think it's a healthy direction for this thread to start digging in on voting. I'll just say I recognize voter fraud is an issue, I don't see it as a viable part of a talk on immigration, and I don't think it's as big of an issue as voter suppression. 

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This issue hasn't been raised yet but is something that has bothered me for years as I think of where my 2 boys will attend college. 

I'd like to send my kids to college outside of IL. Why should I have to pay out of state tuition for them when illegals can pick from a number of states and get in state rates-if they have to pay at all. 

If I were to get arrested for drunk driving there would severe repercussions. In Chicago, and other jurisdictions around here, that illegal caught drunk driving is simply released. 

I have a problem with illegals getting preferential treatment over citizens. 

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2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I think amnesty, with some prerequisites needing to be met to qualify, and a path to citizenship is fair and reasonable. 

I really don't think it's a healthy direction for this thread to start digging in on voting. I'll just say I recognize voter fraud is an issue, I don't see it as a viable part of a talk on immigration, and I don't think it's as big of an issue as voter suppression. 

Interesting, I don't see voter suppression as big of an issue as voter fraud :cheers:

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Another issue involving legal and illegal immigration is wage suppression.  Companies hire H1B visa workers to fill professional positions at lower pay and low skilled positions are filled with legal and illegal low skilled workers at lower wages.  I think it is bad for citizens and immigrants.

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1 hour ago, mrflynn03 said:

Another issue involving legal and illegal immigration is wage suppression.  Companies hire H1B visa workers to fill professional positions at lower pay and low skilled positions are filled with legal and illegal low skilled workers at lower wages.  I think it is bad for citizens and immigrants.

So we can at least agree that corporate greed is bad for everyone except the rich and that we should be filtering money into the hands of the middle-class, not the upper-class? 

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