Immigration!

[KoB2011]

http://www.projectvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/AMERICANS-WITH-PHOTO-ID-Research-Memo-February-2015.pdf

It's biased, sure, but there is some actual data on IDs.

[mrflynn03]

I have always felt if government wants to require an ID they need to issue it a no charge.

After some reading it looks like the biggest hurdle for people is not having the correct documents or having documents with typos. Then they have to get a lawyer and get the court to issue or correct the documents. 

So paperwork and finances are keeping people from getting one. 

It has always been easy for me and didn't realize people had trouble. 

[HoosierFaithful]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html?utm_term=.5694abb5f8e7

[Reacher]

1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

Clearly, the system is broken. It's a bit shocking to me that you can't imagine someone that has a lot of difficulties getting an ID, you should go spend some time in rougher neighborhoods. There's a lot of people there. Do their votes not matter? 

Of course, I'm not okay with people being bribed to go vote illegally. Both parties have tons of illegalities with regard to that. I don't have any more issue with a "Black Church" (as it often is in the scenario you describe) doing that than I do a "White Church" in the suburbs telling people to go vote Republican. Neither one of those things is supposed to happen; you just only are seeking to penalize one because they don't have the means to go vote on their own. 

I'm sitting here advocating that we should strive to have better voter participation and you are honestly arguing with me that we shouldn't. I think voter ID laws are fine so long as the government enforcing those laws is actively helping people get an ID but instead, the line is "you need an ID to exercise your fundamental right and we aren't going to help you get it." Let's make it easy for EVERYONE to vote who has that right. 

I'm not looking to penalize anyone nor am I arguing that we shouldn't have greater voter participation. 

I don't buy the argument that people in rough neighborhoods are incapable of getting an ID. 

In Chicago, the gangs are heavily involved in voting- http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-2012/Gangs-and-Politicians-An-Unholy-Alliance/. They can jump through hoops to get a link card. There are all sorts of outreach programs available. My mother was part of one. How convenient is it for the 18 year old on a farm in some remote area of the country? People wait years and spend lots of $ to enter this country legally and or become citizens to vote legally. At some point, it has to be the responsibility of the voter to want to vote and do what is required to do so legally. I didn't want to go through the chaos at the DMV to get my Drivers License, but I did. 

If it is the states responsibility to make it so easy and free, why does that not apply to getting a FOID Card or Concealed Carry license? Thats where the poor people are being hurt IMO. They are the least likely to be able to pay the hundreds of $ for licenses and classes. If IDs are going to be free and accessible, then ALL types of ID should be- right?

Just what more needs to be done to actively help get IDs than is already being done? We both don't want people voting illegally. We both want as many people to vote as possible. It just the final details of how that happens that need ironed out.  

[KoB2011]

16 minutes ago, Reacher said:

I'm not looking to penalize anyone nor am I arguing that we shouldn't have greater voter participation. 

I don't buy the argument that people in rough neighborhoods are incapable of getting an ID. 

In Chicago, the gangs are heavily involved in voting- http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-2012/Gangs-and-Politicians-An-Unholy-Alliance/. They can jump through hoops to get a link card. There are all sorts of outreach programs available. My mother was part of one. How convenient is it for the 18 year old on a farm in some remote area of the country? People wait years and spend lots of $ to enter this country legally and or become citizens to vote legally. At some point, it has to be the responsibility of the voter to want to vote and do what is required to do so legally. I didn't want to go through the chaos at the DMV to get my Drivers License, but I did. 

If it is the states responsibility to make it so easy and free, why does that not apply to getting a FOID Card or Concealed Carry license? Thats where the poor people are being hurt IMO. They are the least likely to be able to pay the hundreds of $ for licenses and classes. If IDs are going to be free and accessible, then ALL types of ID should be- right?

Just what more needs to be done to actively help get IDs than is already being done? We both don't want people voting illegally. We both want as many people to vote as possible. It just the final details of how that happens that need ironed out.  

4

I don't buy the argument that people in rough neighborhoods are incapable of getting an ID. 

Incapable? That's up for debate but there is no debate that they are incredibly disadvantaged. To say they aren't incredibly disadvantaged is to reject well-documented facts. 

In Chicago, the gangs are heavily involved in voting- http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-2012/Gangs-and-Politicians-An-Unholy-Alliance/. They can jump through hoops to get a link card. There are all sorts of outreach programs available. My mother was part of one. How convenient is it for the 18 year old on a farm in some remote area of the country? People wait years and spend lots of $ to enter this country legally and or become citizens to vote legally. At some point, it has to be the responsibility of the voter to want to vote and do what is required to do so legally. I didn't want to go through the chaos at the DMV to get my Drivers License, but I did. 

I never said it only impacts minorities, but it does disproportionately impact minorities, the elder and people just turning old enough to vote. 

If it is the states responsibility to make it so easy and free, why does that not apply to getting a FOID Card or Concealed Carry license? Thats where the poor people are being hurt IMO. They are the least likely to be able to pay the hundreds of $ for licenses and classes. If IDs are going to be free and accessible, then ALL types of ID should be- right?

1) There are places it is comparatively easier to get a FOID Card or CCL than it is to get the ID needed to vote.

2) There are states you can use one of the above-mentioned IDs to vote, but a school ID from a state school doesn't qualify. 

3) You just argued it should be easier for someone to get a gun than to vote. I'll leave my thoughts on what that says to myself. 

Just what more needs to be done to actively help get IDs than is already being done? We both don't want people voting illegally. We both want as many people to vote as possible. It just the final details of how that happens that need ironed out.  

Nothing is being done to help people get IDs. Many people try and give up because it has been made so hard. You can't fathom that it could even be hard because you haven't taken the time to look at the evidence or read the testimony of people who have been disenfranchised. 

 

The only thing we "agree on" (put it in quotes because you don't seem to actually want to help more people vote legally based on what you are saying) is that more people should be able to legally vote and we should make sure people are voting legally. You can't even admit it's an undue burden on people trying to obtain an ID.

You still haven't addressed the fact that the same folks fighting to put voter ID laws in place are the ones denying increased access to voting (early voting, etc.) for those that do have IDs. 

 

 

 

[SteveS]

On 4/17/2018 at 11:09 AM, mrflynn03 said:

I have always felt if government wants to require an ID they need to issue it a no charge.

After some reading it looks like the biggest hurdle for people is not having the correct documents or having documents with typos. Then they have to get a lawyer and get the court to issue or correct the documents. 

So paperwork and finances are keeping people from getting one. 

It has always been easy for me and didn't realize people had trouble. 

Let's tie this back to immigration.

Should only citizens be allowed to vote? If so then how do we guarantee that only citizens are voting?  Voter ID would seem to be a good solution, but the devil is in the details.

When my grandmother moved to a nursing home here in Colorado she had an expired Oklahoma drivers license since she didn't drive anymore, several years expired.  It was extremely difficult to get her a valid ID so she could vote here.  She had no direct bills sent to her at the nursing home and her license had been expired so long that they would not accept it as a valid ID (the picture hardly looked like her as well).  We ended up having to have an affidavit mailed to her to prove her address and after I found her equally expired passport and several other non government id's they allowed her to have a state ID.  It was an arduous and time consuming process.

Fast forward to last year.  My church has been working with the increasing homeless population in our small-ish town (a suburb of Denver).  I'm not necessarily talking about drunk bums panhandling downtown or at the highway interchanges.  A lot of these are what might be called the working poor, where one of the parents loses a job and before they know it the whole family is living out of a car or on the street.  One of the biggest problems we have with these people is getting them valid ID's so they can get a job.  In many cases they have lost everything that might be used to identify them.

How are we to differentiate between these people and all the illegal immigrants who also want ID's and may want to vote? 

I don't have an answer, of course.  I will say this though, before we really hash out a way (or a better way) to make immigration easier or simpler or equitable, shouldn't we at least attempt to stop the increase in illegals crossing into our country.  To use a plumbing analogy, we should first fix the leak, then we can figure out what to do with the water that's now in the basement.