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Immigration!


Drroogh

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2 hours ago, mrflynn03 said:

Another issue involving legal and illegal immigration is wage suppression.  Companies hire H1B visa workers to fill professional positions at lower pay and low skilled positions are filled with legal and illegal low skilled workers at lower wages.  I think it is bad for citizens and immigrants.

Exactly. This is what I was alluding to in the economic aspect. A case study in Chicago proves the point. Illegal Hispanics were paid $10/hr. When they were discovered and left, replacement workers got an average $14/hr.https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/at-major-northwest-side-bakery-labor-issues-pit-blacks-vs-hispanics/

Interestingly, this was facilitated and allowed to happen by democratic politicians and unions. 

In this case, the corporation looked the other way in hiring illegals. Were they being  greedy or humanitarian? :coffee:

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55 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Exactly. This is what I was alluding to in the economic aspect. A case study in Chicago proves the point. Illegal Hispanics were paid $10/hr. When they were discovered and left, replacement workers got an average $14/hr.https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/at-major-northwest-side-bakery-labor-issues-pit-blacks-vs-hispanics/

Interestingly, this was facilitated and allowed to happen by democratic politicians and unions. 

In this case, the corporation looked the other way in hiring illegals. Were they being  greedy or humanitarian? :coffee:

Reacher -- can we keep this away from politics and on the merits of the issue?  Thanks.

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Good discussion everybody, thanks for not making me the fool for starting it.

Couple more points to add, Sanctuary Cities and States. I'm sorry but my feelings on this is these are violations of constitutional law and far more egregious than some of the lesser crimes by Illegal immigrants. 

More to the solutions side, concerning vetting things really get complex. For instance my Russian friend grew up in the Soviet Union where large populations of ethnic nationalities were moved around. My friends Father was Russian, her Mother is Ukrainian and she grew up in Kazakhstan. In order to get anything other than a Tourist Visa, she would need to be able to supply a police background check. First imagine trying to get a 30 year old police background check from Kazakhstan? Second, in Russia it is well known that it is far easier and cheaper to get fake papers than real ones because of the HORRIBLE bureaucracy! How can we trust the vetting process, when we have to rely on foreign bureaucracy well known for graft and such? Maybe, we have to resort to lie detectors during the interview process? I don't have an answer for this one?

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18 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

Can we at least recognize illegal immigration is very broad and it isn't only unskilled workers?

KoB over the last several month's I have almost universally agreed with you. (scary, I know) But on this I'm hedging the other way. I agree that there is know way to lump this all into a single category, as Rico said "difficult issue to tackle", but can we at least recognize illegal immigration is illegal?

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1 hour ago, Drroogh said:

Good discussion everybody, thanks for not making me the fool for starting it.

 

The mods got together before moving "The Animal House" to a more prominent position on the site, as to what to do with this off topic forum.  To a man, we felt it was going to be an important part of our site, during down times.  And knowing the wide knowledge and interests our members have overall, felt it would be a good thing to move the off topic forum.  We are encouraged that you, along with other members are fulfilling our belief that "The Animal House" can become a viable alternative to the IU sports related forums.   Though we agreed as mods that we need to be a little more tolerant when it comes to "The Animal House", in terms of what we allow or not.... we also agreed and hope that our members adhere to our simple board rules, when posting in our off-topic forum.  Be kind to others, including moderators. No politics... though we will allow some tolerance there.  And no cursing, or religion.

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45 minutes ago, Drroogh said:

KoB over the last several month's I have almost universally agreed with you. (scary, I know) But on this I'm hedging the other way. I agree that there is know way to lump this all into a single category, as Rico said "difficult issue to tackle", but can we at least recognize illegal immigration is illegal?

Of course it is, but right and wrong has nothing to do with legal. 

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45 minutes ago, rico said:

And that my friend is a great topic for another thread!!!!!!!!

I'd be pretty interested in a morality discussion, I would probably want the mods to sign off on that because there will inherently be religious undertones. 

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1 minute ago, KoB2011 said:

I'd be pretty interested in a morality discussion, I would probably want the mods to sign off on that because there will inherently be religious undertones. 

Perhaps so, but it is an interesting topic.  Right and wrong is not legal and illegal.  Even the Bible has some pretty immoral acts.

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I live and teach in a community that is about 30-40% Hispanic, and I'm sure there are a decent percentage of them who are illegal.  Quite a few of our students are likely illegal immigrants.  Some of our Hispanic students who come from these families are fantastic kids.  Just going off the top of my head, I would guess our senior class this year has 4 Hispanics ranked in the top 10 of their class.  A few others would be in the 10-20 range.  Its always remarkable when a student comes from a family of immigrants and makes a life for themselves.  If they were still in Mexico, those kids wouldn't have anywhere near the opportunities they have here.  Unfortunately, a lot of those families don't have the money needed to apply for citizenship.

Part of what makes America great is that we're a melting pot of nationalities.  The Land of Opportunity.  If anybody watched the Olympics, it is obvious to see there.  There are US Olympians of all races and ethnicities.  I think that's pretty cool to see, and is part of what makes this country great.

On the other hand, there needs to be some kind of regulations on immigration.  Not everybody should be allowed to come into the country.  If somebody has committed severe crimes in another country, they clearly shouldn't be allowed to legally come into the country.  There are obviously other reasons too.  I just wish it was easier for the people who use America as an opportunity to improve their lives and the lives of their families.

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Leathernecks, totally agree. I don't think it is the laws and the walls that are the big problem, but the immigration process it's self. We need to make it easier for those who truly want to come and be a part of America to do so, while making sure those who are against America and it's diverse culture are kept out! No simple answer to that one for sure!

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6 hours ago, Drroogh said:

Leathernecks, totally agree. I don't think it is the laws and the walls that are the big problem, but the immigration process it's self. We need to make it easier for those who truly want to come and be a part of America to do so, while making sure those who are against America and it's diverse culture are kept out! No simple answer to that one for sure!

Yep -- I think with a lot of contentious issues, the more we all investigate, the more we find that there's no good solution.

In so many of America's most divisive policy disagreements, both sides truly agree on the underlying goals (e.g. making it easier for those who want to come here and be a part of our great country).  The devil is always in the details.  

It's a big reason why I'm a fan of these threads.  There is a lot more that unites us than divides us.  Our paths may differ but in truth, most of the time, our goals remain the same.  And that's important to remember.

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14 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said:

Yep -- I think with a lot of contentious issues, the more we all investigate, the more we find that there's no good solution.

In so many of America's most divisive policy disagreements, both sides truly agree on the underlying goals (e.g. making it easier for those who want to come here and be a part of our great country).  The devil is always in the details.  

It's a big reason why I'm a fan of these threads.  There is a lot more that unites us than divides us.  Our paths may differ but in truth, most of the time, our goals remain the same.  And that's important to remember.

Amen HF.

Got a story to share.  Back 30 years ago when I lived in a smalltown I used to go to the local watering hole after work.  Got to know a guy by the name of Mikhal...we called him Mike.  He had a job in our little small town.  And his story was fascinating.  You see Mike's family was considered political dissidents in his native country of Romania.  His family scraped together $50,000 just to get him to the states to escape persecution over there.  He loves this country.....although he was/is sad that he left his family behind.  IMO that is the "immigrants" that are no different than those of us that have lived here for generations.  

Now the ones that come here to do harm is another story.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/3/2018 at 2:49 PM, Reacher said:

Interesting, I don't see voter suppression as big of an issue as voter fraud :cheers:

Not to derail this thread, but found this interesting from a GOP elected official. 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/wisconsin-ag-suggests-voter-id-helped-trump-win-54454450

FWIW, I used to be a hardline Republican, worked for the GOP after college and then ran another political campaign for a local politician in leadership for years. I've sat in meeting rooms when talks about voter ID, voter suppression, etc. come up and it is an ugly, ugly conversation. 

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^^^ Agreed.

Article make sense to me. Requiring an ID probably got rid of a lot of the Chicago voters (I've heard from a WI guy heavily involved in politics) that got bussed up there to vote. Hard to say at this point what the effect was. I'm sure Trump was helped in some areas while Hillary was helped be the rules in other places (CA).

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17 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said:

What I dont understand is the opposition to requiring an ID to vote.  I would imagine most every adult would already have one since an ID is needed for all kinds of purposes.  

If someone could explain why I would like to hear it. 

 

Because a lot of people don't have IDs and they're not as easy to get as you think for a large group of people. 

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To be clear, I do think voter fraud is bad and I do understand voter ID laws are in place to help curtail that; but given the difficulties with getting an ID or getting to the voting booth, we should also be helping people get IDs and increasing early voting. 

The problem with ID laws is essentialy that the GOP wants to require an ID to vote but do nothing to help people get those IDs. That is why it amounts to voter suppression. 

We should absolutely be striving for the maximum level of participation so that everyone's voice is heard, unfortunately, that does not even come close to happening. 

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How difficult is is to get an ID? They are free in WI and available at DMVs all over the state. http://elections.wi.gov/node/1917

Why is it the reponsibility of the GOP to help people get an ID? You could say it is the responsibility of the DNC just as well. Or how about the responsibilty of the voter?

If you need an ID for welfare benefits, to open a bank account, cash a check, get on an airplane, who in todays society does not have an ID? I'm sure there are some  but I'd imagine most are people who do not meet the qualifications to vote.

Why are some states actively refusing to provide voter information to federal agencies? It comes across as they have something to hide.

Are you ok with people being bribed with cash / food and put on a bus to go to vote? I don't think that is how the system is supposed to work.

6 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

To be clear, I do think voter fraud is bad and I do understand voter ID laws are in place to help curtail that; but given the difficulties with getting an ID or getting to the voting booth, we should also be helping people get IDs and increasing early voting. 

The problem with ID laws is essentialy that the GOP wants to require an ID to vote but do nothing to help people get those IDs. That is why it amounts to voter suppression. 

We should absolutely be striving for the maximum level of participation so that everyone's voice is heard, unfortunately, that does not even come close to happening. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Reacher said:

How difficult is is to get an ID? They are free in WI and available at DMVs all over the state. http://elections.wi.gov/node/1917

Why is it the reponsibility of the GOP to help people get an ID? You could say it is the responsibility of the DNC just as well. Or how about the responsibilty of the voter?

If you need an ID for welfare benefits, to open a bank account, cash a check, get on an airplane, who in todays society does not have an ID? I'm sure there are some  but I'd imagine most are people who do not meet the qualifications to vote.

Why are some states actively refusing to provide voter information to federal agencies? It comes across as they have something to hide.

Are you ok with people being bribed with cash / food and put on a bus to go to vote? I don't think that is how the system is supposed to work.

 

Clearly, the system is broken. It's a bit shocking to me that you can't imagine someone that has a lot of difficulties getting an ID, you should go spend some time in rougher neighborhoods. There's a lot of people there. Do their votes not matter? 

Of course, I'm not okay with people being bribed to go vote illegally. Both parties have tons of illegalities with regard to that. I don't have any more issue with a "Black Church" (as it often is in the scenario you describe) doing that than I do a "White Church" in the suburbs telling people to go vote Republican. Neither one of those things is supposed to happen; you just only are seeking to penalize one because they don't have the means to go vote on their own. 

I'm sitting here advocating that we should strive to have better voter participation and you are honestly arguing with me that we shouldn't. I think voter ID laws are fine so long as the government enforcing those laws is actively helping people get an ID but instead, the line is "you need an ID to exercise your fundamental right and we aren't going to help you get it." Let's make it easy for EVERYONE to vote who has that right. 

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