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Phinisee


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15 hours ago, Jerry Lundergaard said:

There seems to be this aura about Yogi that he was always "the man". Remembering back, until his Senior year, Yogi was criticized on the boards for a lot of bad decision making-- poor shot selection and the dreaded caught in the air with nowhere to pass. Interesting how selective memories only recall Yogi the hero and don't recollect the struggles he had. Rob will go through some of the same things that Yogi did. Let him progress at his own pace rather than trying to ascribe a level of play to him that may/ may not be realistic 

I was thinking the same thing. Yogi's career:

Year 1: role player on a really good team

Year 2: leader and best player on a team that was terrible, I think this was the offseason he got arrested

Year 3: leader and best player on a team that was terrible

Year 4: had a great Big Ten season, led the team to a conference title (although the team played terrible the first two months of the season)

Obviously the team's struggles during his career weren't all his fault, but he gets some responsibility, particularly on the defensive end and from a leadership standpoint. Yogi's career gets remembered fondly because the team played great from January - March his senior year. He was a very good player for IU, no question about it, but it's also hard to deny that a lot of his career consisted of putting up big numbers for bad teams.

My point is not to denigrate Yogi, just to show that we sometimes remember the good times with former players and forget their flaws.  I'm really excited about Phinisee and while I doubt he matches Yogi's stats at IU, I hope he will have even more success in an IU uniform than Yogi did.

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7 hours ago, Shooter said:

I was thinking the same thing. Yogi's career:

Year 1: role player on a really good team

Year 2: leader and best player on a team that was terrible, I think this was the offseason he got arrested

Year 3: leader and best player on a team that was terrible

Year 4: had a great Big Ten season, led the team to a conference title (although the team played terrible the first two months of the season)

Obviously the team's struggles during his career weren't all his fault, but he gets some responsibility, particularly on the defensive end and from a leadership standpoint. Yogi's career gets remembered fondly because the team played great from January - March his senior year. He was a very good player for IU, no question about it, but it's also hard to deny that a lot of his career consisted of putting up big numbers for bad teams.

My point is not to denigrate Yogi, just to show that we sometimes remember the good times with former players and forget their flaws.  I'm really excited about Phinisee and while I doubt he matches Yogi's stats at IU, I hope he will have even more success in an IU uniform than Yogi did.

I've certainly been harsh on Yogi in the past, but it's hard to put his sophomore year on him. He wasn't the best player, he wasn't the veteran player. Why does he get tagged with failed leadership for that?

His junior year wasn't terrible, it just was below our expectations. We did still make the tournament. 

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57 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I've certainly been harsh on Yogi in the past, but it's hard to put his sophomore year on him. He wasn't the best player, he wasn't the veteran player. Why does he get tagged with failed leadership for that?

His junior year wasn't terrible, it just was below our expectations. We did still make the tournament. 

Who was the best player that year then - Vonleh? Maybe in terms of pure talent, but I thought Yogi was the better player at that point in time. You're probably right that Sheehey should get more of the leadership blame than Yogi for that season. I disagree about his junior season, that was a talented team that completely tanked late in the season - they went something like 0-10 against tourney teams from mid January on. By IU standards that was a bad team.

My first post probably read like I hate Yogi, but that's not actually true. He was a really good player for us and deservedly made all Big Ten. I just don't consider him an unassailable legend.

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46 minutes ago, Shooter said:

Who was the best player that year then - Vonleh? Maybe in terms of pure talent, but I thought Yogi was the better player at that point in time. You're probably right that Sheehey should get more of the leadership blame than Yogi for that season. I disagree about his junior season, that was a talented team that completely tanked late in the season - they went something like 0-10 against tourney teams from mid January on. By IU standards that was a bad team.

My first post probably read like I hate Yogi, but that's not actually true. He was a really good player for us and deservedly made all Big Ten. I just don't consider him an unassailable legend.

It's definitely close between Yogi and Vonleh, but I guess I tend to give the nod to Vonleh as he was the best rebounder and post defender we had at any point under Crean and Yogi wasn't a good defender at that point in his career. 

I get that the junior year team wasn't up to our standards, but I'm not willing to call a tournament team terrible.  Maybe you were just being hyperbolic and I'm getting hung up on semantics.  

Either way, regarding Yogi, I think you'd be hard pressed to not name him as the number 3 PG ever at IU.  That may not be an unassailable legend, but it also doesn't seem like a level a guy who won't start until he is a junior is going to reach. 

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I read that and started thinking where does Yogi fit in terms of all-time point guards.  Yogi is definitely in the top 5 and probably number 3.  The top 2 have to be Isiah and Buckner I think,

The next name I could think of was Damon Bailey, but I don't think he was the primary ball handler for most of his time at IU.  I like Michael Lewis, but not as good as Yogi.  

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On 8/27/2017 at 7:04 PM, Shooter said:

Who was the best player that year then - Vonleh? Maybe in terms of pure talent, but I thought Yogi was the better player at that point in time. You're probably right that Sheehey should get more of the leadership blame than Yogi for that season. I disagree about his junior season, that was a talented team that completely tanked late in the season - they went something like 0-10 against tourney teams from mid January on. By IU standards that was a bad team.

My first post probably read like I hate Yogi, but that's not actually true. He was a really good player for us and deservedly made all Big Ten. I just don't consider him an unassailable legend.

Yogi was the problem that year. He didn't listen to Sheehey or Howard.  They tried, but the 2012 and 2013 classes were pains.  

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20 minutes ago, bluegrassIU said:

Thanks for sharing this. It is good to be reminded that despite the worry, we have some really solid players coming into Bloomington.

Robert is a very very good player gang!

My thoughts exactly.  We have a good class coming in regardless of what happens with Romeo.  Romeo would just be the icing on the cake.

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RP is a key part of the foundation Archie is laying. Romeo would speed up a rebuild, but the guys we have already signed are perhaps more key to our long-term success. 

From my view, Archie is running things like a slightly more uptempo Tony Bennett. You need quality three and four year guys that know you're system to succeed then a star or two to push you over the top. 

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Don't think this kid will come in and be Isaiah Thomas, hell he won't even be Yogi. Remember how we all thought about Yogi as a freshman and the mistakes he made? Lets back off a little here. To say it wont hurt missing on Romeo because we have Phinisee, is just you trying to make yourself feel better if we do miss on Romeo. We are in trouble at the guard spot next year unless the light goes off in Green's head and Al gets a whole lot better.

 

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33 minutes ago, Indykev said:

Don't think this kid will come in and be Isaiah Thomas, hell he won't even be Yogi. Remember how we all thought about Yogi as a freshman and the mistakes he made? Lets back off a little here. To say it wont hurt missing on Romeo because we have Phinisee, is just you trying to make yourself feel better if we do miss on Romeo. We are in trouble at the guard spot next year unless the light goes off in Green's head and Al gets a whole lot better.

 

We would basically have Green, Durham, Phinisee and Anderson on the wings. Hopefully we are looking at grad transfers.

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Yeah, this kid is quality I’m sure, but we have a habit of overvaluing on HSN. I remember seeing a number of people suggesting we could/would make the tournament this year. I guess it’s possible, but with a new coach, new system, below avg freshmen class, and our schedule, that’s a massive stretch and wishful thinking. We need Romeo next year, no doubt. 

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3 hours ago, Indykev said:

Don't think this kid will come in and be Isaiah Thomas, hell he won't even be Yogi. Remember how we all thought about Yogi as a freshman and the mistakes he made? Lets back off a little here. To say it wont hurt missing on Romeo because we have Phinisee, is just you trying to make yourself feel better if we do miss on Romeo. We are in trouble at the guard spot next year unless the light goes off in Green's head and Al gets a whole lot better.

 

Yogi was the starting point guard on one of the best teams in the country and beat out two key cogs from the prior years Sweet 16 team. I think he was good his freshman year, he just wasn't asked to score that year like the rest of his career. 

I also think you're discounting who coached Yogi and who will cosch Rob. 

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3 hours ago, kyhoosier29 said:

Yeah, this kid is quality I’m sure, but we have a habit of overvaluing on HSN. I remember seeing a number of people suggesting we could/would make the tournament this year. I guess it’s possible, but with a new coach, new system, below avg freshmen class, and our schedule, that’s a massive stretch and wishful thinking. We need Romeo next year, no doubt. 

We also have a habit of undervaluing players as well. High Ranking doesn’t mean you’re a good ball player and vice versa. 

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4 hours ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

We would basically have Green, Durham, Phinisee and Anderson on the wings. Hopefully we are looking at grad transfers.

Yup. While we'll have talent next year, it will once again be young and shooting will most likely be the bugaboo again. I know Anderson is a good shooter, but it would do a lot for next year to land Langford and a shooter in the grad transfer marker. Ideally you'd get Langford and a grad transfer like Beilfeldt who is a big that can defend and shoot. 

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6 hours ago, Indykev said:

Don't think this kid will come in and be Isaiah Thomas, hell he won't even be Yogi. Remember how we all thought about Yogi as a freshman and the mistakes he made? Lets back off a little here. To say it wont hurt missing on Romeo because we have Phinisee, is just you trying to make yourself feel better if we do miss on Romeo. We are in trouble at the guard spot next year unless the light goes off in Green's head and Al gets a whole lot better.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that the kid it going to come in and be Isaiah or Yogi, just that he's a good ball player.  If you watch his highlights (and I understand they're highlights) you can tell he has a very high basketball IQ, a good athlete and a good shooter.  IMO, guards are one of the easiest positions to come in and make a huge impact from the get go, especially with a high basketball IQ.  Also, I don't think anyone that has commented is trying to make themselves feel better if we miss on Romeo.  Would we be better with Romeo?  Absolutely!  Will we be a better team next year without Romeo and with the recruits that are already committed?  Absolutely!  I really like the class that we have coming in.  BGleas mentioned that he felt shooting will be lacking again next year, but I honestly do not think it will be.  Hunter and Anderson can STROKE the ball, and Phinisee is no slouch himself.  Even if we miss on Romeo, we won't be thin in the backcourt.  You'll have Durham, Green, Phinisee and Hunter (CAM has said Hunter will be a big 2 guard).  We will once again be thin on the front court, unless Moore can develop or Forrester can come in and make an impact.  This is just my 2 cents.

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5 hours ago, kyhoosier29 said:

Yeah, this kid is quality I’m sure, but we have a habit of overvaluing on HSN. I remember seeing a number of people suggesting we could/would make the tournament this year. I guess it’s possible, but with a new coach, new system, below avg freshmen class, and our schedule, that’s a massive stretch and wishful thinking. We need Romeo next year, no doubt. 

Hmmm.  It's funny how two people can look at the same thing, yet see things differently.  I've been pleased with what I've seen from Al Durham  and Justin Smith, and I think they are big building blocks to the future, who are getting significant playing time/experience as freshmen.  You  see them as part of a "below average freshman class".

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1 hour ago, Muddy River said:

Hmmm.  It's funny how two people can look at the same thing, yet see things differently.  I've been pleased with what I've seen from Al Durham  and Justin Smith, and I think they are big building blocks to the future, who are getting significant playing time/experience as freshmen.  You  see them as part of a "below average freshman class".

Not saying I haven’t been pleased with both of them, but even after seeing positives from them, where would you put the class compared to others in the country? We’ve seen positives from Smith, but not a lot of contribution. We’ve seen a lot of positives and a good amount of contribution from Durham. Moore hasn’t seen the court. Yeah, we can be optimistic about them going forward, but I think you’re reaching if you’d claim (compared to others) that this class is anything more than, I’ll give you, average. 

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58 minutes ago, kyhoosier29 said:

Not saying I haven’t been pleased with both of them, but even after seeing positives from them, where would you put the class compared to others in the country? We’ve seen positives from Smith, but not a lot of contribution. We’ve seen a lot of positives and a good amount of contribution from Durham. Moore hasn’t seen the court. Yeah, we can be optimistic about them going forward, but I think you’re reaching if you’d claim (compared to others) that this class is anything more than, I’ll give you, average. 

Who are we comparing them to?  All D1 recruiting classes?  Then I would have to say above avg.  Against major conference schools, I would still say average to slightly above average.  Keep in mind though, one of the very few Knight principles that I still subscribe to is that classes should be ranked when  they leave, not before playing a minute.  I'm also old enough to remember when you didn't count on freshmen to contribute anything at all, except to the freshman team.  So, on that note, GET OFF MY LAWN!!  :coffee:

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33 minutes ago, Muddy River said:

Who are we comparing them to?  All D1 recruiting classes?  Then I would have to say above avg.  Against major conference schools, I would still say average to slightly above average.  Keep in mind though, one of the very few Knight principles that I still subscribe to is that classes should be ranked when  they leave, not before playing a minute.  I'm also old enough to remember when you didn't count on freshmen to contribute anything at all, except to the freshman team.  So, on that note, GET OFF MY LAWN!!  :coffee:

Well, since IU should be competing for titles, they should be compared to major conference classes right? I don’t disagree with that assessment about judging them at the end, but in today’s game freshmen are counted on to contribute from the get-go. I’d imagine once CAM gets his feet under him, we won’t have to count on freshmen too much though. Or at least I hope not, bc it then means we missed on a lot of people in previous years. 

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11 minutes ago, CSprings Hoosier said:

If Phinisee can lead, he can definitely be as good as Yogi. Key words: if he can lead.

IMO, I'll take Phinisee for 4 years over Langford for 1-2 years, because Langford is even more quiet on the (high school) court than RoJo the Silent. If last year taught us anything, it's that Indiana doesn't need superstars right now. 3x NBA draftees got us nothing last year.  Moving forward, this Indiana team will need leaders who drive passion for winning.

Have to have talent too!

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