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Roy Hibbert, De'ron Davis and the problem for old school bigs...


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https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-the-nba-abandoned-roy-hibbert/

This article is not about De'Ron, it's about Roy, but it addresses a lot of the problems old school bigs have in modern basketball. The college game has not evolved at quite the same pace as the NBA game, which is why there are still times where Davis can be impactful but we also saw last year BEFORE he tore his achilles some of the problems Davis faced with modern basketball teams. 

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25 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-the-nba-abandoned-roy-hibbert/

This article is not about De'Ron, it's about Roy, but it addresses a lot of the problems old school bigs have in modern basketball. The college game has not evolved at quite the same pace as the NBA game, which is why there are still times where Davis can be impactful but we also saw last year BEFORE he tore his achilles some of the problems Davis faced with modern basketball teams. 

Makes you wonder if Shaq would have a similar legacy if he was 15 years younger. Probably not. Crazy to think!

 

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It’s definitely a trend and this era has evolved into a fun/fast paced product for sure. However, Roy Hibbert just wasn’t very good, imo. He had two seasons where he meshed well with the team around him. I still feel like if there’s a dominant center, teams will line up to get him, because they’re so rare in today’s game. They may not be as serviceable as in year’s past, but there will always be a spot for a big man on any roster. I love nothing more than a big man that can block shots, dominate the paint, run the floor and pass the rock, so I guess you could say that I’m old school. I do like the ball movement and pace of today’s game though!

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1 minute ago, Danomatic said:

It’s definitely a trend and this era has evolved into a fun/fast paced product for sure. However, Roy Hibbert just wasn’t very good, imo. He had two seasons where he meshed well with the team around him. I still feel like if there’s a dominant center, teams will line up to get him, because they’re so rare in today’s game. They may not be as serviceable as in year’s past, but there will always be a spot for a big man on any roster. I love nothing more than a big man that can block shots, dominate the paint, run the floor and pass the rock, so I guess you could say that I’m old school. I do like the ball movement and pace of today’s game though!

Roy's defense is still great around the rim. 

The big man you just described doesn't describe old school bigs. The running the floor part is the issue.  

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1 minute ago, Danomatic said:

It’s definitely a trend and this era has evolved into a fun/fast paced product for sure. However, Roy Hibbert just wasn’t very good, imo. He had two seasons where he meshed well with the team around him. I still feel like if there’s a dominant center, teams will line up to get him, because they’re so rare in today’s game. They may not be as serviceable as in year’s past, but there will always be a spot for a big man on any roster. I love nothing more than a big man that can block shots, dominate the paint, run the floor and pass the rock, so I guess you could say that I’m old school. I do like the ball movement and pace of today’s game though!

but he couldn't run the floor? or defend ball screens. 

Jake Forrester is going to look good 3 years from now. He's the "big man" of the future... the mold he is I mean. 

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It's a good article that highlights the shift to more athletic, outside-shooting bigs.

Hibbert was a very good defender and proved it over multiple seasons, in the Pacers' defensive scheme of forcing drives with PG and G Hill defending the perimeter. 

The article does not touch on Hibbert's emotional makeup/problems, though. He lost confidence and fell apart while Lance was running around stealing rebounds for his stats. I remember the famous 'we've got some selfish players in here' comment. Then there was Bird's ridiculous public castigation of Hibbert while he/the Pacers were looking to move Hibbert, which only hurt his trade stock and image at a time Bird/the Pacers were trying to move him, and thoroughly pissed off West, who left $12M on the table rather than deal further with Bird. Yes the Pacers look good now, this is not about that, and it's a good article, but the locker-room stuff and Hibbert's fragile mental state was as much a part of his downfall as his lack of mobility.

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Roy Hibbert....strange situation indeed. His mind was certainly elsewhere most of his last season. Don't know all the gossip. Heard things. That year we went to quite a few Pacers games for whatever reason. Routinely we would go to the game and stop off at Ocean Prime in Indy on the way back home for a bite/drink or see friends,etc....there were a couple of nights where Roy was there before we got there. Shocked me actually.  Assuming he showered, media obligations,etc...how in the world did he get there that quickly. 

Nothing wrong with that at all. Young, have tens of millions in the bank and huge contract (thanks Larry)....but to beat us to the bar was quite amazing all things considered. 

Really funny part is that if the rumors were true and didn't like each other....Larry was always about 1/4 mile down the road banging them back at Tilly's. Hole in the wall pub.

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If Shaq was active today, that story never gets written.   Teams would be looking for bigs to match up against Shaq as opposed to lean and long 7 footers that run the floor and shoot the 3.  Shaq was that dominant.  The change has occurred because of the absence of a quality big like Shaq.

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41 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

It's a good article that highlights the shift to more athletic, outside-shooting bigs.

Hibbert was a very good defender and proved it over multiple seasons, in the Pacers' defensive scheme of forcing drives with PG and G Hill defending the perimeter. 

The article does not touch on Hibbert's emotional makeup/problems, though. He lost confidence and fell apart while Lance was running around stealing rebounds for his stats. I remember the famous 'we've got some selfish players in here' comment. Then there was Bird's ridiculous public castigation of Hibbert while he/the Pacers were looking to move Hibbert, which only hurt his trade stock and image at a time Bird/the Pacers were trying to move him, and thoroughly pissed off West, who left $12M on the table rather than deal further with Bird. Yes the Pacers look good now, this is not about that, and it's a good article, but the locker-room stuff and Hibbert's fragile mental state was as much a part of his downfall as his lack of mobility.

I agree, I'd have liked to see some touching on the locker room issues beyond Bynum and on Hibs mental make-up. That said, it does talk about his rim protection numbers still being great even last year. Roy Hibbert, still, can absolutely defend the rim on par with anyone on the planet. The problem is, you've got to offer more than that. 

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4 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

If Shaq was active today, that story never gets written.   Teams would be looking for bigs to match up against Shaq as opposed to lean and long 7 footers that run the floor and shoot the 3.  Shaq was that dominant.  The change has occurred because of the absence of a quality big like Shaq.

Shaq could move, though. I don't think any of the historical bigs could hang in today's NBA if they couldn't move. Some of them would be fine, some of them (Ewing) would get killed. 

I also find it unfair to today's bigs to say they aren't good. Of the top of my head, here are some of the big guys that I think could play in any era: KD, Giannis, Gobert, Jokic, Porzingis, Dwight Howard, Clint Capella, AD, Boogie, Al Horford....

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14 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Are there more 6'6-6'9 athletic guys that are versatile or are there more 6'10-7'2 guys that are paint dominate? Hmmm

Even the 6'10 - 7'2 guys today are mobile. If it was true that a dominant post game was the way to go, you'd see some of the freaks that size who can play defense in the modern NBA take guys in the post more. It's not because they don't have the skills to do it, it's because it isn't as effective. 

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14 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I agree, I'd have liked to see some touching on the locker room issues beyond Bynum and on Hibs mental make-up. That said, it does talk about his rim protection numbers still being great even last year. Roy Hibbert, still, can absolutely defend the rim on par with anyone on the planet. The problem is, you've got to offer more than that. 

Agreed. LA was a bad fit for him, and he is still good around the rim, needs the right system and self-confidence. I'd like to see him on a team with 4 versatile players keeping him close to the basket. Gobert is more mobile/versatile, but what he does in Utah is similar, rim protection. 

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1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Agreed. LA was a bad fit for him, and he is still good around the rim, needs the right system and self-confidence. I'd like to see him on a team with 4 versatile players keeping him close to the basket. Gobert is more mobile/versatile, but what he does in Utah is similar, rim protection. 

Yeah, Gobert and Marc Gasol are both similar but they both are better on the perimeter. 

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1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

Roy's defense is still great around the rim. 

The big man you just described doesn't describe old school bigs. The running the floor part is the issue.  

I think that younger Shaq, David Robinson, Olajuwon, Mourning, Mutumbo etc. all ran the floor pretty well. It just wasn’t required back then... just get block to block, score and defend. Now that the game is perimeter oriented, we ask our bigs to do a lot more. In essence, size is no longer the end all - be all. Now you have to be able to do so much more. 

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The game has just changed, there is very little room for the slow, plodding big man anymore. I'd put Kendrick Perkins in the same category as Hibbert, in terms of a big who the game left. He got signed by the Cavs for locker room presence at the end of the season, but has essentially been out of the league for two years, even though he's wanted to play. 

I was watching some of the GS-Houston game last night and for stretches the biggest player on the court was KD. There were stretches where Houston's tallest player was Trevor Ariza. 

It's very difficult in this era to get any real time if you're not skilled, athletic and mobile. You need to be able to run, handle, shoot, guard all 5 positions, etc. 

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Kareem would be an interesting example.  He did not run the floor, but once in the half-court I wonder if he could be effective with the hook?  His shot was almost unblockable by the defender between him and the bucket, but with all the quickness today he might have trouble while "winding up".

Speaking of running the floor, I've been watching several Pete Maravich videos - I always remembered him as one of the all-time greats in college but ignored his brief NBA career - some of that ball handling and passing was magical.

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5 minutes ago, Danomatic said:

I think that younger Shaq, David Robinson, Olajuwon, Mourning, Mutumbo etc. all ran the floor pretty well. It just wasn’t required back then... just get block to block, score and defend. Now that the game is perimeter oriented, we ask our bigs to do a lot more. In essence, size is no longer the end all - be all. Now you have to be able to do so much more. 

Yeah, I think the top bigs of the past would be able to play today. No doubt Shaq, Robinson, Mourning, and Hakeem would. Those guys were supremely athletic, and if they were playing today you have to account for the fact they would have developed in the era of being taught and working on perimeter skills. 

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I also think this discussion is less about time period, and more about style. It's the plodding, athletically limited big that doesn't have a place today, not just all bigs. 

DeRon, Hibbert, Perkins, Jahlil Okafor, etc. It's very difficult to play those guys with the way the game has changed. 

Guys like Bill Russell, Wilt, David Robinson, Dave Cowens, Hakeem, Shaq, Mourning, etc. all had the athleticism that they would be able to adapt to this era if they grew up in it. 

 

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Not disputing that Shaq could move his feet....that’s what made him great, but he rarely did run the floor or guarded outside of 15 feet, nor did he need to. I’m not saying he'd be a nobody but he wouldn’t have been as effective for as long. I do believe his career would’ve been shorter, especially the years he struggled with his weight. 

 

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17 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Shaq could move, though. I don't think any of the historical bigs could hang in today's NBA if they couldn't move. Some of them would be fine, some of them (Ewing) would get killed. 

I also find it unfair to today's bigs to say they aren't good. Of the top of my head, here are some of the big guys that I think could play in any era: KD, Giannis, Gobert, Jokic, Porzingis, Dwight Howard, Clint Capella, AD, Boogie, Al Horford....

The court has two sides as well and today's big couldn't guard the low post big men either.  Yes the Ewing's of the world would have trouble on the defensive end but on the offensive end they would still dominate.

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1 minute ago, BGleas said:

I also think this discussion is less about time period, and more about style. It's the plodding, athletically limited big that doesn't have a place today, not just all bigs. 

DeRon, Hibbert, Perkins, Jahlil Okafor, etc. It's very difficult to play those guys with the way the game has changed. 

Guys like Bill Russell, Wilt, David Robinson, Dave Cowens, Hakeem, Shaq, Mourning, etc. all had the athleticism that they would be able to adapt to this era if they grew up in it. 

 

Yep.  For all the talk about how bigs are no longer important in today’s NBA, it’s interesting that there’s a pretty good chance that 4 of the top 5 picks in the draft this year will be big men.

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