Roy Hibbert, De'ron Davis and the problem for old school bigs...

[btownqb]

19 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Even the 6'10 - 7'2 guys today are mobile. If it was true that a dominant post game was the way to go, you'd see some of the freaks that size who can play defense in the modern NBA take guys in the post more. It's not because they don't have the skills to do it, it's because it isn't as effective. 

or efficient 

[btownqb]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

The court has two sides as well and today's big couldn't guard the low post big men either.  Yes the Ewing's of the world would have trouble on the defensive end but on the offensive end they would still dominate.

why couldn't they? Sabonis and Turner can guard any big in any era... at least somewhat. Shaq guarding a pick and pop with Turner would be laughable. 

[KoB2011]

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

The court has two sides as well and today's big couldn't guard the low post big men either.  Yes the Ewing's of the world would have trouble on the defensive end but on the offensive end they would still dominate.

I'm not sure most of those guys couldn't guard Ewing adequately. They're all quicker, he doesn't have size on any of them. Where exactly is his advantage? 

[KoB2011]

4 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Yep.  For all the talk about how bigs are no longer important in today’s NBA, it’s interesting that there’s a pretty good chance that 4 of the top 5 picks in the draft this year will be big men.

Exactly! You won't see bigs playing with their back to the basket, but it's not because we don't have talented big men just the way they play has changed. 

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm not sure most of those guys couldn't guard Ewing adequately. They're all quicker, he doesn't have size on any of them. Where exactly is his advantage? 

Let's not diminish Ewing though. I agree he'd have a tougher time in this era, especially defensively, but if you gave him the ball on the block against the vast majority of bigs playing today he would dominate them just as much, if not more, as he did 20 years ago.

 

[IU Scott]

36 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm not sure most of those guys couldn't guard Ewing adequately. They're all quicker, he doesn't have size on any of them. Where exactly is his advantage? 

those guys actually had multiple low post moves unlike the post players today.  Today in the post you just back yourself to the basket and try to power over everyone.  Those players in the past could play with their back to the basket and could turn over either shoulder for a turn around shot or jump hook.  They also had the up and under mover using ball fakes as well.  The best post moves I have ever seen was from Kevin McHale and he could score on anyone even though he couldn't jump at all.

[KoB2011]

33 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Let's not diminish Ewing though. I agree he'd have a tougher time in this era, especially defensively, but if you gave him the ball on the block against the vast majority of bigs playing today he would dominate them just as much, if not more, as he did 20 years ago.

 

I think Ewing is overrated, anyway, but it isn't like he was efficient on the block like Shaq, Hakeem or some of the other historically great bigs. He only shot 50% for his career despite the fact that the vast majority of his shots were within 15' of the basket. 

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

36 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Let's not diminish Ewing though. I agree he'd have a tougher time in this era, especially defensively, but if you gave him the ball on the block against the vast majority of bigs playing today he would dominate them just as much, if not more, as he did 20 years ago.

 

Absolutely. Ewing was a genuinely elite big.

[btownqb]

3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

those guys actually had multiple low post moves unlike the post players today.  Today in the post you just back yourself to the basket and try to power over everyone.  Those players in the past could play with their back to the basket and could turn over either shoulder for a turn around shot or jump hook.  They also had the up and under mover using ball fakes as well.  The best post moves I have ever seen was from Kevin McHale and he could score on anyone even though he couldn't jump at all.

The guys now would guard those guys fine downlow. Wouldn't dominate them, but they would guard them fine. 

The guys back then would struggle mightly to defend these guys on the perimeter. Big time. They aren't quick enough, not even close. 

[CauseThatsMyDJ]

Love Myles Turner, but he would get destroyed by the elite bigs of the past. He can't even matchup with Drummond and Steven Adams.

[BGleas]

2 minutes ago, btownqb said:

The guys now would guard those guys fine downlow. Wouldn't dominate them, but they would guard them fine. 

The guys back then would struggle mightly to defend these guys on the perimeter. Big time. They aren't quick enough, not even close. 

It depends on who you're talking about. Could Anthony Davis hang with any great big from the 80's and 90's? Absolutely. Assuming he stays healthy, Anthony Davis is going to go down in the same conversation as Robinson, Duncan, Garnett, Hakeem, etc., etc. (I left Shaq out because he's kind of an entirely different type of player). 

But if you're comparing those guys to someone like Myles Turner (just using him because you mentioned him earlier), those guys would abuse Turner and other bigs of his level. 

[BGleas]

13 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I think Ewing is overrated, anyway, but it isn't like he was efficient on the block like Shaq, Hakeem or some of the other historically great bigs. He only shot 50% for his career despite the fact that the vast majority of his shots were within 15' of the basket. 

 

Depends on who you're comparing him too? I agree that while he's often in the same conversation, I personally would take Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson and Moses Malone (just using the other great bigs from the era) over Ewing every time, and then if you include power forwards of the era, I would take Barkley and Malone over him as well. 

But with that said, he's still a HOF, elite player. 

P.S. Moses might be the mover underrated big in NBA history. He doesn't usually get mentioned, but he's absolutely on the level of all those guys.

[Danomatic]

5 minutes ago, btownqb said:

The guys now would guard those guys fine downlow. Wouldn't dominate them, but they would guard them fine. 

The guys back then would struggle mightly to defend these guys on the perimeter. Big time. They aren't quick enough, not even close. 

But let’s also not pretend that even though the era has changed the skill level, there’s still a limited amount of great bigs in today’s game, as well. I mean true bigs. Special talent is still hard to find/get.

[btownqb]

3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

It depends on who you're talking about. Could Anthony Davis hang with any great big from the 80's and 90's? Absolutely. Assuming he stays healthy, Anthony Davis is going to go down in the same conversation as Robinson, Duncan, Garnett, Hakeem, etc., etc. (I left Shaq out because he's kind of an entirely different type of player). 

But if you're comparing those guys to someone like Myles Turner (just using him because you mentioned him earlier), those guys would abuse Turner and other bigs of his level. 

Kevin McHale would not abuse Turner. Robinson, Duncan, Hakeem would. Duncan and Hakeem would struggle plenty with Turner in pick and pop and his ultization of a shot fake (FINALLY)... Robinson would be fine defensively. 

[FKIM01]

3 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-the-nba-abandoned-roy-hibbert/

This article is not about De'Ron, it's about Roy, but it addresses a lot of the problems old school bigs have in modern basketball. The college game has not evolved at quite the same pace as the NBA game, which is why there are still times where Davis can be impactful but we also saw last year BEFORE he tore his achilles some of the problems Davis faced with modern basketball teams. 

That's a very telling and informative article.  If I were De'Ron, reading that would make me nervous about my future in basketball, regardless of my talent and how well I healed.  I didn't completely understand why the Pacers ditched Hibbert...I heard what they were saying, but that article really drove it home for me.

[BGleas]

Just now, btownqb said:

Kevin McHale would not abuse Turner. Robinson, Duncan, Hakeem would. Duncan and Hakeem would struggle plenty with Turner in pick and pop and his ultization of a shot fake (FINALLY)... Robinson would be fine defensively. 

Are you serious? Kevin McHale is widely credited with having the best post game in NBA history. Myles Turner would get abused trying to defend him on the block. McHale and every guy you mentioned would absolutely abuse Turner. 

Turner is a nice, decent young player. The guys you mentioned are some of the best players to ever play the game. I get the game has changed, but no so much that an average player would outplay, or even hold his own, against the best to every play. 

[IU Scott]

3 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Kevin McHale would not abuse Turner. Robinson, Duncan, Hakeem would. Duncan and Hakeem would struggle plenty with Turner in pick and pop and his ultization of a shot fake (FINALLY)... Robinson would be fine defensively. 

We are talking about on defense and Turner couldn't guard any of them because he has problems today against average low post players of today.

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, Danomatic said:

But let’s also not pretend that even though the era has changed the skill level, there’s still a limited amount of great bigs in today’s game, as well. I mean true bigs. Special talent is still hard to find/get.

The difference is... you don't need a great big to be compeititive anymore because you can get points in different ways. 

 From 94-07

Hakeem twice 

Shaq 4 times 

Duncan 5 times 

So... Detroit won it one time, and MJ won it three times. 

It's no longer like that.. it's all based on perimeter play. 

 

[btownqb]

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Are you serious? Kevin McHale is widely credited with having the best post game in NBA history. Myles Turner would get abused trying to defend him on the block. McHale and every guy you mentioned would absolutely abuse Turner. 

Turner is a nice, decent young player. The guys you mentioned are some of the best players to ever play the game. I get the game has changed, but no so much that an average player would outplay, or even hold his own, against the best to every play. 

No.. he would not abuse him. Turner is taller, as long, and way more athletic. McHale would get his.. he wouldn't come close to abusing him though. Bigger, faster, stronger, more athletic. And I said the others would, so not sure what you're meaning there. 

And again... the other end of the court... in a pick and pop... Duncan, McHale, and Hakeem would struggle. It's not even that it's Turner... it's the design of the play and the ability to execute it. 

[btownqb]

5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

We are talking about on defense and Turner couldn't guard any of them because he has problems today against average low post players of today.

Ok.. so let's talk about defensively... 

How could they guard Turner or someone like him in a pick and pop when they don't have the quickness or overall physical capabilities to do so? 

[btownqb]

Turner guarding McHale in the post.. I would feel completely fine with that matchup. 1in 35lbs.. pretty sure he's longer, stronger, quicker, jumps better. 

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Ok.. so let's talk about defensively... 

How could they guard Turner or someone like him in a pick and pop when they don't have the quickness or overall physical capabilities to do so? 

Turner is not that great of a player and I wouldn't worry about him dominating anyone on the offensive end.  He is not dominating offensively now so I don't see him dominating some of the best centers ever to play the game.  If I were you I would find other examples if you want to try to make your point.  Also just because they playe din the 80's does not mean the big guys were all slow and plodding. Robinson and Hakeem were some of the fastest big men to ever play the game and they would do just fine playing defense in today's game.

[The Daily Hoosier]

Not sure if the 538 article touched on it or not, but there is a subtlety here that shouldn't be overlooked.  It used to be that these kind of guys left early for the NBA.  Now they can't buy their way in.  From a college coaching/recruiting perspective, it isn't all that bad of an idea to go after these guys hard, knowing they will be highly impactful in college and also likely playing all 4 years.  See Isaac Haas.  The blind squirrel that is Purdue might have found a nut here.

[btownqb]

Just now, IU Scott said:

Turner is not that great of a player and I wouldn't worry about him dominating anyone on the offensive end.  He is not dominating offensively now so I don't see him dominating some of the best centers ever to play the game.  If I were you I would find other examples if you want to try to make your point.

You completely disregard the premise of this discussion lol  

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, btownqb said:

No.. he would not abuse him. Turner is taller, as long, and way more athletic. McHale would get his.. he wouldn't come close to abusing him though. Bigger, faster, stronger, more athletic. And I said the others would, so not sure what you're meaning there. 

And again... the other end of the court... in a pick and pop... Duncan, McHale, and Hakeem would struggle. It's not even that it's Turner... it's the design of the play and the ability to execute it. 

Yes, McHale would abuse Turner on the block. It honestly wouldn't be close. Turner is an average player. He's a decent, average player. McHale abused players on the block that are far greater players and defenders than Myles Turner. 

I also don't think Duncan would struggle to defend Turner. Again Turner isn't an ok player, and it's not like it was that long ago that Duncan was playing at a high level. Hakeem is an interesting one. He would abuse players like Turner offensively, but not sure how he would defend the perimeter.