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milehiiu

Anthony Leal is a Hoosier !

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7 hours ago, milehiiu said:

Appreciate your post. More than you can think.  However.  I HAVE to ask.  What have any IU OAD's ever done to further our program? 

I will say with relative certainty that one or more of the recruits we've landed the last two years would not have chosen IU if Romeo hadn't came to IU first.  Maybe the season he was here was not as successful as we would have liked, but Romeo Langford 'furthered' the IU program simply by choosing to become a Hoosier.

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Agree with the people mentioning Zeller and Isaiah Thomas.  Not a fan if IT as a coach or executive, but he repped the Hoosiers very well at IU and had an impressive career with the pistons.  Sorry Scott...LOL @ choosing Alford over Thomas.  Come on, man...I don't see Steve as a particularly great ambassador for IU with his failed tenures at Iowa and UCLA and his NBA career was nonexistent.  I'm not going to hold IT's desire to provide for his family and as I understand it, he left with Knight's blessing as Knight was aware of his family's hardship at the time.

I'm in the "both" camp...give me veterans and very talented players who will likely leave early as long as they get along well with the team, understand their roles and contribute.  If these kids are good enough to leave early and they contribute while they are here, I say bring em on.  Not a whole team of them, but one here and there is just fine with me.  I'll likely enjoy the four year players more because I have more time to get attached, but I also love players like Bryant, Oladipo, Zeller and yes, Romeo.  Those guys can play on my team anytime they want.

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...and welcome, welcome, welcome, Anthony Leal.  Look forward to seeing you make some great Hoosier memories, young man!

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30 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I like the strategy of targeting and signing more 3-4 year guys, and I’m super happy about the Galloway and Leal commitments, really glad they’re coming to IU. I would like to see IU now land a few more guys in that TJD/Hunter range, in terms of rankings. 

With that said, anytime this discussion comes up about one and dones or guys who leave early, the part that bugs me is the insinuation that guys like Yogi, Morgan, Hartman, etc. somehow care about IU more than guys like Langford, Zeller or Bryant. While they were here, the latter gave just as much and still rep IU in a big way, and while the former are also great the only reason they were at IU 4 years is because they weren’t good enough to leave. 

Nobody can tell me Bryant didn’t care or was just using IU as a stepping stone. That guy competed every single minute. 

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I’m on board with the way the wind seems to be blowing. Many 3-4 year players with a chance to add a OAD every year to put them over the top, but if that player isn’t landed, we still have a top 25 team. 

Really, I just long for the days when at  least 40% of the team are upper classmen who know the system  

That success is dependent on how good of a coach CAM can be. Is he good enough to see the bigger picture and able to find specific role players that match his needs and buy into his culture -  guys that work together and win because they are a cohesive unit?

Here’s to hoping that Anthony is one of those ‘culture’ guys. :cheers:

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17 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Nobody can tell me Bryant didn’t care or was just using IU as a stepping stone. That guy competed every single minute. 

Exactly, and IU does not win the Big Ten Title or go to a Sweet Sixteen, beating UK along the way, without him. 

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3 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

Well, the colleges sure benefit from them financially. And the OADs play pretty much for free. 

OAD’s also got tremendous exposure, especially playing at Duke or UK. Duke played less than 40 games last year yet were nationally televised more than all but 5 NBA franchises. Think about that?

Someone like Zion could have very easily accepted a six figure salary to play overseas for a year and while he would have put cash in his pocket, there’s nowhere he’s anywhere close to being as marketable as he is today. That’s strictly the platform the college basketball gives OAD’s and a reason why college basketball is the best avenue to the NBA even if it is “unpaid”. 

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I have no problem with OADs. Lander may very well be one depending on the PG class in 2020. 

Dont see anybody saying we should back off. 

Now certain one and Dones absolutely should be avoided. But not all

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6 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

Again, utmost respect to you, but I really don’t like when people say an athlete ‘used’ a university. Especially when it’s the other way around: the NCAA, universities, and even IU use athletes. Making boatloads of money off of their back - right now, through college is the only realistic path to the pros. Don’t blame the athlete for the path the NBA makes them go down. If anybody uses the universities, it’s the NBA. 

Edit - I even hesitate to say that the NBA uses the universities because they essentially force the best players in the nation to go to college. The NBA gets the exposure for their future athletes. And the NCAA gets the best 18 year old athletes which increase the skill level and overall entertainment value. Sorry to  not feel sorry for the NCAA, who just for the tournament, is in the middle of a 14 year, $10.8 billion dollar contract with CBS. 

Quality post. Past time that the NBA abolishes the OAD rule. Be like baseball.

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4 hours ago, IU878176 said:

In interviews Cody has stated that he seriously thought about leaving after his freshman year. Should we have passed on him?

Also....I understand that some OAD’s have a singular objective but don’t agree we should forget them to concentrate on players that “just want to win”. Why assume wanting to win and OAD are mutually exclusive? Zion Williamson, as an example, was a clear cut-no doubt OAD but he also seemed EXTREMELY committed to winning. Balance is the key.

Zion was a candidate who in my opinion, should have been allowed to go straight to the NBA. Just as Lebron James. Zion... Injured during the season (shoe blow out ). He may have been committed to winning. However, even he failed to take Duke all the way.  Conversely, a three year D-1 player, Kyle Guy, from Indiana was able to help deliver the goods for Virginia.

Thanks for your post. I do appreciate it. 

As for Cody. I was totally on board with him.  So much so, that my son eventually got tired of my speaking of Cody, while we recruiting him.   Never thought of Cody as a OAD. Cody didn't leave after just one season.  And truthfully, as a result, in my opinion showed other Indiana kids, unlike his brother, that it WAS ok to commit to IU.  Something IU needed at the time.  Hard to pass up the lure of money.  And equally as hard to imagine what could have been, had Cody stayed for four years. 

 

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2 hours ago, 5fouls said:

I will say with relative certainty that one or more of the recruits we've landed the last two years would not have chosen IU if Romeo hadn't came to IU first.  Maybe the season he was here was not as successful as we would have liked, but Romeo Langford 'furthered' the IU program simply by choosing to become a Hoosier.

Just as Cody Zeller.  However, in both Romeo and Cody's way.  Neither led the way to an NC.

Love ya fouls.  Long time, loyal member of HSN.  That's what I am looking for, in terms of an IU player. 

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5 hours ago, milehiiu said:

Just as Cody Zeller.  However, in both Romeo and Cody's way.  Neither led the way to an NC.

Love ya fouls.  Long time, loyal member of HSN.  That's what I am looking for, in terms of an IU player. 

Jumping in to this discussion WAAAYYYY late here....

I've said on this board multiple times that you don't have to be from Indiana to be an Indiana kid.  It's a mindset, a passion for the game and how you play it and i dont mean X's & O's.  

Aldo I dont think leaving early makes you less of a Hoosier and I dont think staying 4,5,6 years makes you more of one.  One cant point at Duke or UK and say having OAD's didnt help them win a title without also pointing out that UE, Valpo and Cleveland St didnt win one either.  It's about catching lightning in a bottle and ALL of the bounces going your teams way for 6 games.  

Is Keith Smart any less of a Hoosier because he only played at IU for 2 years?  What about (going to butcher names here...sorry) Jeffries, Ziesloft or Biefeldt?  Will Brunk only be half Hoosier?  

A persons loyalty or whatever you want to call it should not be determined by his length of stay at the school we ALL love so much but how he or she represents IU while they are here and after they are gone.

Now tying this all back in to Leal.....we can NOT expect to hang banner #6 with a team full of players of his skill level comming into college; but we aint guna win one without a handfull of them either.  But what he might not bring to the table in speed, jumping ability and athletisism (all of which can be improved) he brings in knowing how to and loving to play the game.  And if he absolutely blows up over the next 3 years and is only at IU for 2 years because he goes to the NBA, there is NO WAY IN HELL he could be called any less of a Hoosier than anyone else.

Stepping off my soapbox now.....you may continue the rest of your day. 

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9 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

Agree with the people mentioning Zeller and Isaiah Thomas.  Not a fan if IT as a coach or executive, but he repped the Hoosiers very well at IU and had an impressive career with the pistons.  Sorry Scott...LOL @ choosing Alford over Thomas.  Come on, man...I don't see Steve as a particularly great ambassador for IU with his failed tenures at Iowa and UCLA and his NBA career was nonexistent.  I'm not going to hold IT's desire to provide for his family and as I understand it, he left with Knight's blessing as Knight was aware of his family's hardship at the time.

I'm in the "both" camp...give me veterans and very talented players who will likely leave early as long as they get along well with the team, understand their roles and contribute.  If these kids are good enough to leave early and they contribute while they are here, I say bring em on.  Not a whole team of them, but one here and there is just fine with me.  I'll likely enjoy the four year players more because I have more time to get attached, but I also love players like Bryant, Oladipo, Zeller and yes, Romeo.  Those guys can play on my team anytime they want.

Never said Alford was a better player because he wasn't but in my eyes I view him better since he was here 4 years

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Another thing is that I do view players like IT and Cody a lot different than I do one and done players.  If you stay 2 years at least you have to unpack and stay awhile and you also went through a complete off season working with the team.  A one and done player gets here in June and pretty much leaves campus by April if not earlier depending how far your team goes in the tournament.

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14 minutes ago, CrimsonV said:

IU Scott and milehiiu 

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I guess when you grow up when we did and saw most of your favorite players stay 3-4 years and you get to see them grow as players you appreciate those guys.  Now that you don't get that as much you just don't get to know them as well so you won't view those players in the same light.

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9 hours ago, IndyResident16 said:

OAD’s also got tremendous exposure, especially playing at Duke or UK. Duke played less than 40 games last year yet were nationally televised more than all but 5 NBA franchises. Think about that?

Someone like Zion could have very easily accepted a six figure salary to play overseas for a year and while he would have put cash in his pocket, there’s nowhere he’s anywhere close to being as marketable as he is today. That’s strictly the platform the college basketball gives OAD’s and a reason why college basketball is the best avenue to the NBA even if it is “unpaid”. 

I don't disagree with you and believe this is why the majority of OAD's go to college instead of playing overseas for one year. But it's not like those athletes are like 'give me that exposure over the guaranteed money of a lottery pick.'

And let's not act like it's an even trade off. Duke got just as much exposure off of Zion and their unbelievable recruiting class, but the difference is that Duke received all the tangible monetary benefits. These athletes are still more valuable to the teams they are committing to than the other way around. If that wasn't the case they would not be recruited by coaching staffs and ogled at by fans far and wide on social media to come to their school.

Again, i'm just saying it's not fair to jump to conclusions and accuse OAD's of 'using' a university because they only decide to stay there for 1 year. (and here I go) This may be just me, but I feel I get a strange feeling that when it comes to athletes (and specifically OADs) there's a strange undertone of superiority over them. That because they are getting money to 'play a game' that somehow their right to capitalize off of their abilities to further themselves is less deserved. You hear language like 'they should be happy with a free year of college', 'they use teams', 'they are just kids', 'they don't deserve it', 'they are just in it for the money', etc.  And my question is: in what other walk of life in a capitalistic society are these same messages uttered? Who looks down at Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates for dropping out of Harvard to pursue riches? Why is alright for an executive to negotiate their salary, but not alright for an athlete?

....Sorry that this got off track and inspired a 'Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy' session. And now I'm aiding in derailing a thread that  should be devoted to Anthony Leal - so I promise not to post any more on this topic. 

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11 hours ago, BGleas said:

While they were here, the latter gave just as much and still rep IU in a big way, and while the former are also great the only reason they were at IU 4 years is because they weren’t good enough to leave

This is where I am at. I doubt we have had a single player come through the program who would not have left early had they not had the opportunity. Tim Duncan is about the only player that I can think of that was a guaranteed top 5 pick that went back to school for his senior season.

To put it in perspective, in 10 years at UK with the OAD model Calipari has been to 7 E8's and 4 Final 4's. In the last 40 years we have been to 6 E8's, and 4 Final 4's. We can all look back at the '75 and '76 teams for the great teams they were in that era, however, if Kent Benson and Scott May were playing today, they would have never made it to their senior years and probably would have never been around for their sophomore seasons.

I am not in the camp of we should only go after OAD's. I am very excited about Leal and Galloway and I hope they both develop into players that have the opportunity to leave early like Vic. But I don't feel we will ever be a top team in the B1G year in and year out without a OAD here and there.

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1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

I don't disagree with you and believe this is why the majority of OAD's go to college instead of playing overseas for one year. But it's not like those athletes are like 'give me that exposure over the guaranteed money of a lottery pick.'

And let's not act like it's an even trade off. Duke got just as much exposure off of Zion and their unbelievable recruiting class, but the difference is that Duke received all the tangible monetary benefits. These athletes are still more valuable to the teams they are committing to than the other way around. If that wasn't the case they would not be recruited by coaching staffs and ogled at by fans far and wide on social media to come to their school.

Again, i'm just saying it's not fair to jump to conclusions and accuse OAD's of 'using' a university because they only decide to stay there for 1 year. (and here I go) This may be just me, but I feel I get a strange feeling that when it comes to athletes (and specifically OADs) there's a strange undertone of superiority over them. That because they are getting money to 'play a game' that somehow their right to capitalize off of their abilities to further themselves is less deserved. You hear language like 'they should be happy with a free year of college', 'they use teams', 'they are just kids', 'they don't deserve it', 'they are just in it for the money', etc.  And my question is: in what other walk of life in a capitalistic society are these same messages uttered? Who looks down at Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates for dropping out of Harvard to pursue riches? Why is alright for an executive to negotiate their salary, but not alright for an athlete?

....Sorry that this got off track and inspired a 'Deep Thoughts by Jack Handy' session. And now I'm aiding in derailing a thread that  should be devoted to Anthony Leal - so I promise not to post any more on this topic. 

But that isn't the NCAA's problem. Not being able to go directly to the NBA is a rule set forth by the NBA, not the NCAA. The next best options are either, "give me free exposure" or go play G-League/overseas for a year. I'd concede that Zion Williamson is still a lottery pick with whatever path he chose, but he's nowhere near as marketable had he chose to go to Europe or play in the G-League and that's because those leagues don't get a tenth of the coverage that a program like Duke does. You could make a case that aside from LeBron James, Zion Williamson is the most marketable basketball player in the world and that's because the world got to see his coming out party playing on national television every night. He doesn't get that luxury playing overseas or in the G-League, even though he's technically getting paid. Zion is set up much better long term (especially in terms of endorsements) by playing at Duke for a year even if he technically wasn't "paid". Most OAD's realize this and why college basketball is still the preferred route until they're draft eligible.

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10 minutes ago, IUaic said:

This is where I am at. I doubt we have had a single player come through the program who would not have left early had they not had the opportunity. Tim Duncan is about the only player that I can think of that was a guaranteed top 5 pick that went back to school for his senior season.

To put it in perspective, in 10 years at UK with the OAD model Calipari has been to 7 E8's and 4 Final 4's. In the last 40 years we have been to 6 E8's, and 4 Final 4's. We can all look back at the '75 and '76 teams for the great teams they were in that era, however, if Kent Benson and Scott May were playing today, they would have never made it to their senior years and probably would have never been around for their sophomore seasons.

I am not in the camp of we should only go after OAD's. I am very excited about Leal and Galloway and I hope they both develop into players that have the opportunity to leave early like Vic. But I don't feel we will ever be a top team in the B1G year in and year out without a OAD here and there.

I would say we had plenty of guys over the years who were good enough to leave early but it wasn't something that kids did much back then.   If players like Calbert and Henderson was playing today they would have left early but kids in that era did not leave early that often.  Some guys like Buckner, May and Benson would have left early if they played today.

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32 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

And let's not act like it's an even trade off. Duke got just as much exposure off of Zion and their unbelievable recruiting class, but the difference is that Duke received all the tangible monetary benefits. These athletes are still more valuable to the teams they are committing to than the other way around. If that wasn't the case they would not be recruited by coaching staffs and ogled at by fans far and wide on social media to come to their school.

College athletes are expendable. Yes there are rare, generational athletes like Zion Williamson, but for the most part every D1 college basketball player is expendable, even at schools like Duke and Kentucky. The faces and names on the jersey's change every year yet Duke and Kentucky are still consistently the top revenue generating basketball program's in the country. Fans are tied to the university and/or the program, not the players because they only have a finite time at the school. 

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3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I would say we had plenty of guys over the years who were good enough to leave early but it wasn't something that kids did much back then.   If players like Calbert and Henderson was playing today they would have left early but kids in that era did not leave early that often.  Some guys like Buckner, May and Benson would have left early if they played today.

That's an interesting point about May, Buckner, and Benson.  In today's climate I agree they would have left early.  Also, considering his late-season improvement, strong tournament, and winning a title, Landon Turner likely would go too.

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Just now, Zuckerkorn said:

That's an interesting point about May, Buckner, and Benson.  In today's climate I agree they would have left early.  Also, considering his late-season improvement, strong tournament, and winning a title, Landon Turner likely would go too.

Exactly. Turner would have been the poster child for great run in 2nd half of season and strong run to Final 4, title,etc....almost like Sam Dekker a few years ago where his strong tourney play elevated him to 1st round status.Of course Dekker hated Ryan so there's that too.

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Just now, Zuckerkorn said:

That's an interesting point about May, Buckner, and Benson.  In today's climate I agree they would have left early.  Also, considering his late-season improvement, strong tournament, and winning a title, Landon Turner likely would go too.

I was going to say the same thing about Turner and Tolbert would have probably left early as well.  In todays game kids leave early who had not had great seasons go early so kids like the ones we mentioned who were really good would have left.  Thank goodness that we were able to see great basketball back then when the stars stayed 3 or 4 years which produced great basketball.  To me when I say that I thought basketball was way better back then does not mean I think the players back then were so much better but the kids were more experience and played together longer.  With this it just produces better product on the court and it usually means some tough competition between the top teams.

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3 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

Exactly. Turner would have been the poster child for great run in 2nd half of season and strong run to Final 4, title,etc....almost like Sam Dekker a few years ago where his strong tourney play elevated him to 1st round status.Of course Dekker hated Ryan so there's that too.

Dekker hates Ryan?  Didn’t know that.  Interesting

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