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10 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

It;s either love or hate for LeBron, that's for sure.  I don't care for him, but it's more personal that about his God-given talent.  No sense even going through the list as repeating it ad nauseum since I understand how annoying that can be and you've likely heard it all before.  I respect his talent (how can you not?) but I don't care for how he's carried himself personally or professionally.

I’m just glad we can have the discussion because it’s good for the game. I think when it’s said and done I think it’ll be a real toss up for 🐐

Ironically enough and it sounds crazy even thinking or typing it but I think 6-0 might be a negative in the Jordan 🐐 debate. 

 

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40 minutes ago, ADegenerate said:

I’m just glad we can have the discussion because it’s good for the game. I think when it’s said and done I think it’ll be a real toss up for 🐐

Ironically enough and it sounds crazy even thinking or typing it but I think 6-0 might be a negative in the Jordan 🐐 debate. 

 

Yeah, I see no need to get bent out of shape over disagreeing opinions.  I've been called out before more than once and have no problem admitting I've been wrong more than once. I don't take it personally or at least I try not to. :cheers:

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7 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

It;s either love or hate for LeBron, that's for sure.  I don't care for him, but it's more personal that about his God-given talent.  No sense even going through the list as repeating it ad nauseum since I understand how annoying that can be and you've likely heard it all before.  I respect his talent (how can you not?) but I don't care for how he's carried himself personally or professionally.

A lot of it is his ever following chorus of witnesses...first Cleveland fans, then Miami fans, then Cleveland fans, now Laker fans, etc.  But yeah he has carried himself on and off the court about as poorly as possible. 

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1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said:

A lot of it is his ever following chorus of witnesses...first Cleveland fans, then Miami fans, then Cleveland fans, now Laker fans, etc.  But yeah he has carried himself on and off the court about as poorly as possible. 

I'm sorry this is an awful take. He has carried himself off the court like a model citizen. He is, by all information we have, an outstanding person who has given back time and time again. 

If off the court is a factor for GOAT, and it shouldn't be, Michael Jordan isn't anywhere near the top. 

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13 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm sorry this is an awful take. He has carried himself off the court like a model citizen. He is, by all information we have, an outstanding person who has given back time and time again. 

If off the court is a factor for GOAT, and it shouldn't be, Michael Jordan isn't anywhere near the top. 

Agree all day. Never understood the angst for Lebron. Guess the decision rubbed people the wrong way but when approached by a network and have the opportunity to raise millions for a 30 minute tv spot for charity...do it. My only issue with Lebron was leaving Miami to go back to Cleveland. Dan Gilbert never deserved a title as an owner.

Otherwise Lebron isn't getting strippers pregnant. He isn't accused of rape (Kobe). By all accounts he carries himself like Jeter. What's really not to like? 

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Ok, i dont see how Bill Russell is constantly left out of the GOAT discussion?  Does anyone else have championship toe rings!?!?  As far as LBJ goes, its like Magic Johnson and MJ got together with a mad scientist and made a human out of all their best physical atributes and took John Starks brain (insert picture of him clanking 2 freethrows to lose a playoff game against the Pacers @ the Garden).

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27 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm sorry this is an awful take. He has carried himself off the court like a model citizen. He is, by all information we have, an outstanding person who has given back time and time again. 

If off the court is a factor for GOAT, and it shouldn't be, Michael Jordan isn't anywhere near the top. 

What he did to Cleveland and his hometown fans the first go around was about as low class as it gets.  

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1 hour ago, dbmhoosier said:

What he did to Cleveland and his hometown fans the first go around was about as low class as it gets.  

What has he done off the court that compares, remotely, to MJ? I am not an LBJ fan, but seriously?

What he has done to give back to Cleveland is unquestionable. 

You can start with The Decision that you're referencing, that was his low point for sure -- but then he donated the money that raised (about $3M) to the Boys and Girls Clubs of America. Since then his Foundation began the After School All Stars program (began as Wheels for Education), sponsors and has provided reading and mathematics assistance to many Akron kids, current class of 800 graduates soon.It covers $9,500 annual college tuition for each kid. Every one of them. His Foundation is also a major contributor to the Childrens' Defense Fund, which focuses on at risk kids, and a major contributor to ONEXONE, another program providing after school help and programs for kids in need, and those are just a few of them. What a slouch he is. 

And then what else has he done off the court but be a model citizen? Is he out there gambling and knocking up women, how many MJ, Barkley, etc. stories can you compare him to, even one? 

Like him or not, he's one of the greatest players ever and may be the GOAT.

 

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3 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

What has he done off the court that compares, remotely, to MJ? I am not an LBJ fan, but seriously?

What he has done to give back to Cleveland is unquestionable. 

You can start with The Decision that you're referencing, that was his low point for sure -- but then he donated the money that raised (about $3M) to the Boys and Girls Clubs of America. Since then his Foundation began the After School All Stars program (began as Wheels for Education), sponsors and has provided reading and mathematics assistance to many Akron kids, current class of 800 graduates soon.It covers $9,500 annual college tuition for each kid. Every one of them. His Foundation is also a major contributor to the Childrens' Defense Fund, which focuses on at risk kids, and a major contributor to ONEXONE, another program providing after school help and programs for kids in need, and those are just a few of them. What a slouch he is. 

And then what else has he done off the court but be a model citizen? Is he out there gambling and knocking up women, how many MJ, Barkley, etc. stories can you compare him to, even one? 

Like him or not, he's one of the greatest players ever and may be the GOAT.

 

And as you did a great job demonstrating, he is perhaps a better person than a basketball player. 

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3 hours ago, dbmhoosier said:

A lot of it is his ever following chorus of witnesses...first Cleveland fans, then Miami fans, then Cleveland fans, now Laker fans, etc.  But yeah he has carried himself on and off the court about as poorly as possible. 

I can't stand Lebron but he has never had any off the court issues of any kind.  Also after this year I have moved him up to pretty much 1b to MJ's 1a.

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1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

Leaving in free agency is low class and unforgivable? Come on you know that's ridiculous. 

I used this statement by Lebron to hate his off court behaviors:
 

"All the people that was rooting on me to fail, at the end of the day they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life that they had before they woke up today."

"They have the same personal problems they had today. I'm going to continue to live the way I want to live and continue to do the things that I want to do with me and my family and be happy with that.

"They can get a few days or a few months or whatever the case may be on being happy about not only myself, but the Miami Heat not accomplishing their goal, but they have to get back to the real world at some point."

I remember when he made the statement like it was yesterday.  I read that statement as: "They (NBA fans) are bitter, but I am better, because money".  He clearly placed himself above fans in that statement whatever the scenario.

I will admit, I may have used this statement made by him to justify my disdain of him.

A dated top 10 list of reasons to hate Lebron.

Also,

A top 5 list.

Granted, much of this is dated, and HSN is giving me pause as for reasons to hate him.  I will respect his game when he is flat out competing, using his energy to play instead of whine or flop.  James has done more of the competing in recent years imo as opposed to giving endless fodder to list writers and haters.

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19 minutes ago, PoHoosier said:

I used this statement by Lebron to hate his off court behaviors:
 

"All the people that was rooting on me to fail, at the end of the day they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life that they had before they woke up today."

"They have the same personal problems they had today. I'm going to continue to live the way I want to live and continue to do the things that I want to do with me and my family and be happy with that.

"They can get a few days or a few months or whatever the case may be on being happy about not only myself, but the Miami Heat not accomplishing their goal, but they have to get back to the real world at some point."

I remember when he made the statement like it was yesterday.  I read that statement as: "They (NBA fans) are bitter, but I am better, because money".  He clearly placed himself above fans in that statement whatever the scenario.

I will admit, I may have used this statement made by him to justify my disdain of him.

A dated top 10 list of reasons to hate Lebron.

Also,

A top 5 list.

Granted, much of this is dated, and HSN is giving me pause as for reasons to hate him.  I will respect his game when he is flat out competing, using his energy to play instead of whine or flop.  James has done more of the competing in recent years imo as opposed to giving endless fodder to list writers and haters.

I can see how you would read that statement negatively, but I don't. I read that statement as, "I am really happy and content with my life, no matter who hates me, roots against me or rather or not people consider me the GOAT. The people who get joy from my failings ultimately have to go back to whatever life have."

He never mentioned money. He mentioned being happy with what he does and with his family. He never mentioned he was better than anyone, either. 

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2 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I'm sorry this is an awful take. He has carried himself off the court like a model citizen. He is, by all information we have, an outstanding person who has given back time and time again. 

If off the court is a factor for GOAT, and it shouldn't be, Michael Jordan isn't anywhere near the top. 

Agree with this.  My ultimate issue with Lebron and why I personally have not been able to embrace him is due to his constant need to tell people how great he his.  I don't like people that are talented to be that self-aware.   It is a small thing and probably petty, but it is just how I feel.  Also, I am in the camp that the guy gets a ridiculous amount of calls, yet he acts on the court like he doesn't and the refs placate to that to some degree.  Otherwise, he is good to the community, he speaks up about societal issues (something Jordan never did to not jeopardize his brand), and is an athletic freak both physically and mentally. 

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16 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I can see how you would read that statement negatively, but I don't. I read that statement as, "I am really happy and content with my life, no matter who hates me, roots against me or rather or not people consider me the GOAT. The people who get joy from my failings ultimately have to go back to whatever life have."

He never mentioned money. He mentioned being happy with what he does and with his family. He never mentioned he was better than anyone, either. 

I thought I was clear in a few things, chiefly, that I no longer hate him for something he did years ago.  I also respect his game.  The 2nd thing I wanted to be clear on was I heard him make the comment live.  The leap Lebron made from the fans that hated him and downplaying their lives to jumping to his life and how wonderful it is was an easy read for me.  If he had stated it without condescension and ire, I could have taken it with the eloquence you stated it as.  Maybe he meant it that way, if only it came across as such instead of as "The Decision" when it could come across as a charity event.

Either way, with many of the valid points many have made, it was easy to make the healthy choice and let go of my hatred for the man.  It was important to me to mention why I once did so.

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The whining and flopping is soft as hell and cannot be overlooked. Its had lingering impact on youth sports as well... now the way Lebron acts is "cool" in the youth sports, used to the youth were able to look at MJ and mimick him which was about a zillion times better. 

Understand why he left CLE the first time... the other two moves have just been lame. He has taken away from his greatness, so much by his FA moves. 

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24 minutes ago, btownqb said:

The whining and flopping is soft as hell and cannot be overlooked. Its had lingering impact on youth sports as well... now the way Lebron acts is "cool" in the youth sports, used to the youth were able to look at MJ and mimick him which was about a zillion times better. 

Understand why he left CLE the first time... the other two moves have just been lame. He has taken away from his greatness, so much by his FA moves. 

On his leaving Cleveland, I get where you're coming from -- team loyalty seems largely a thing of the past with the CBA changes and power shift to the players over the years, but it's just what it is now, and literally no one expected him to stay in Cleveland after this season and its sweep ending to GS. He might've done the one-and-one, but that would've been it. As to whining and flopping, that's subjective. Again, I'm not really an LBJ fan myself, but in fairness, because of his sheer strength and power, much like Shaq, he gets hit and grabbed and pushed more than anyone in the League and many times it goes uncalled, because of how powerful he is. He whines some for sure, but then Durant, Harden and many others do to, and they don't get hit half as much as LBJ does. 

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58 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

On his leaving Cleveland, I get where you're coming from -- team loyalty seems largely a thing of the past with the CBA changes and power shift to the players over the years, but it's just what it is now, and literally no one expected him to stay in Cleveland after this season and its sweep ending to GS. He might've done the one-and-one, but that would've been it. As to whining and flopping, that's subjective. Again, I'm not really an LBJ fan myself, but in fairness, because of his sheer strength and power, much like Shaq, he gets hit and grabbed and pushed more than anyone in the League and many times it goes uncalled, because of how powerful he is. He whines some for sure, but then Durant, Harden and many others do to, and they don't get hit half as much as LBJ does. 

No one got full on clobbered more than Jordan. How can whining and flopping be subjective? We're all literally watching him do it on 15 camera angles a game. Cant stand harden or Durant either. Shaq got away with more offensive fouls than anyone who's ever played. Again.. the FA has taken away from his legacy, I think. Regardless of the CBA he still could have stayed. Whyd he leave Miami?? Because they got beat by the Warriors? He is so soft. I'm honestly not sure how many NBA players right now aren't soft. Anthony Davis he would be one. Just seems like a league full of p****** imo. 

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1 hour ago, btownqb said:

No one got full on clobbered more than Jordan. How can whining and flopping be subjective? We're all literally watching him do it on 15 camera angles a game. Cant stand harden or Durant either. Shaq got away with more offensive fouls than anyone who's ever played. Again.. the FA has taken away from his legacy, I think. Regardless of the CBA he still could have stayed. Whyd he leave Miami?? Because they got beat by the Warriors? He is so soft. I'm honestly not sure how many NBA players right now aren't soft. Anthony Davis he would be one. Just seems like a league full of p****** imo. 

Whoa there, MJ got away with elbow jabbing his defender almost every time he shot and no, he did not get hit like Shaq or LBJ. Hell, what he did was go ballistic if he did. Do you remember him punching Reggie, which then resulted in REGGIE getting booted from the game?? Talk about favoratist treatment. 

Guys jump teams now, it’s just what it is now, Durant, by far, is the worst 

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3 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Whoa there, MJ got away with elbow jabbing his defender almost every time he shot and no, he did not get hit like Shaq or LBJ. Hell, what he did was go ballistic if he did. Do you remember him punching Reggie, which then resulted in REGGIE getting booted from the game?? Talk about favoratist treatment. 

Guys jump teams now, it’s just what it is now, Durant, by far, is the worst 

There was an entire team (Pistons) that had a team rule that if you fouled Jordan you fouled him literally as hard as possible when you got the chance.... MJ for sure pushed off some, nothing compared to Shaq. 

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Just now, btownqb said:

There was an entire team (Pistons) that had a team rule that if you fouled Jordan you fouled him literally as hard as possible when you got the chance.... MJ for sure pushed off some, nothing compared to Shaq. 

I'm not saying he wasn't fouled, of course guys tried to stop him, but there's zero comparison to what guys did to Shaw (it's called hack a Shaq, not hack a Jordan, for obvious reasons) and then LBJ, which is just because those guys are so strong there's just nothing you can do otherwise to stop them. MJ was masterful, but he was not a physically super imposing player. Apples and oranges.

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