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1 minute ago, go_iu_bb said:

I understand that. But at some point the improvement has to be reflected in conference standing which means conference wins, not just overall. The majority of the season, after all, is played in conference (20 games). 

Maybe Miller will figure it out, maybe not. I hope he does, and sooner rather than later.

Like I said earlier that in Andy Katz had us 7th at in the conference but 18th in country.  If that is the case you are probably looking at a 5 or 6 seed which is OK to me.  Like I said ad well if we are still having these discussions in March of 22 then that will be the time to look at a change.  To me all of this talk and people worrying is way premature.

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7 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Like I said earlier that in Andy Katz had us 7th at in the conference but 18th in country.  If that is the case you are probably looking at a 5 or 6 seed which is OK to me.  Like I said ad well if we are still having these discussions in March of 22 then that will be the time to look at a change.  To me all of this talk and people worrying is way premature.

Considering IU finished 10th last season and 8th the season before, 7th place would be an improvement. But it would mean that the team once again failed to exceed expectations under Miller and that with all but 1 player recruited by him. With TJD and possibly Lander leaving after this season, if it doesn't happen now it might not happen.

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3 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

Considering IU finished 10th last season and 8th the season before, 7th place would be an improvement. But it would mean that the team once again failed to exceed expectations under Miller and that with all but 1 player recruited by him. With TJD and possibly Lander leaving after this season, if it doesn't happen now it might not happen.

So you don't care that were a top 20 team and got say a 5 seed.  As a 5 seed you would have a good chance if going to the sweet 16.  Also last year we finished tied for 10tj but was just 3 games behind 4th place.

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5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

So you don't care that were a top 20 team and got say a 5 seed.  As a 5 seed you would have a good chance if going to the sweet 16.  Also last year we finished tied for 10tj but was just 3 games behind 4th place.

Did I say I wouldn't care? Nope, sure didn't. But 7th place in the conference would still be disappointing and certainly wouldn't answer questions of whether or not Miller can get it done at IU.

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A 7th place finish and 18th overall in the country is disappointing?

Wow...just wow.  This view completely misses the big picture.  If that happens, the Big Ten is THE dominant conference nationally.  Looking at conference finish position in isolation without considering comparative conference strength is just silly.

Four years ago, this program was in major need of re-tooling.  The current coach took a slow build with a strong foundation approach.  I think he's accomplishing exactly that.  Such a build is much more sustainable than the rapid ascent approach of our former coach who frenetically chased quick success without taking the time to build a firm foundation under the program, resulting in the uneven success and ultimate collapse.  This is the Virginia/Villanova/Duke/Michigan(Beilein) build model and it's a shame that many in our fanbase can't see that and have patience in the consistent year over year over year improvement.

It's so frustrating to see the same doom and gloom over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.  Some of you really need a handful of valiums badly.

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2 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

A 7th place finish and 18th overall in the country is disappointing?

Wow...just wow.  This view completely misses the big picture.  If that happens, the Big Ten is THE dominant conference nationally.  Looking at conference finish position in isolation without considering comparative conference strength is just silly.

Four years ago, this program was in major need of re-tooling.  The current coach took a slow build with a strong foundation approach.  I think he's accomplishing exactly that.  Such a build is much more sustainable than the rapid ascent approach of our former coach who frenetically chased quick success without taking the time to build a firm foundation under the program, resulting in the uneven success and ultimate collapse.  This is the Virginia/Villanova/Duke/Michigan(Beilein) build model and it's a shame that many in our fanbase can't see that and have patience in the consistent year over year over year improvement.

It's so frustrating to see the same doom and gloom over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.  Some of you really need a handful of valiums badly.

I don't think Duke should be mentioned in that group of teans

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20 games, or roughly 2/3 of the regular season, are played against B1G opponents. That means to be relevant nationally year after year (which I think most here want) a school has to win against conference opponents. So I don't think it's too much to ask for a coach learn how to win against those.

Also, this year he has an experienced team and a preseason all-conference player who is getting talk about being a contender for national POY in TJD. Miller has brought in one best point guards in the 2020 or 2021 classes. Of course, he had a similar situation with Morgan and Langford but that didn't turn out well. Maybe this time will be difference due to the overall team experience coupled with the following reasons:

A couple of players who were rumored to either not buy in to Miller's playing philosophy and/or otherwise be distractions are gone. Injuries plagued the last few years but so far this off season there haven't been reports of those.

Miller teams at IU have had games here and there where they were clicking on all cylinders but have not been able to string a bunch of those together. This means they've lost games they could've won. These preseason projections are based on this team continuing to play like the last few seasons except with more experience. So with the factors that may have caused that inconsistent play no longer applying to this team we should see a team that is more consistent than previous Miller teams. This also means they should play better than just an small incremental improvement from last season.

If they finish 7th, it will likely mean they were plagued by uneven play yet again. 

I'm not saying, nor have I ever said,  Miller should be fired. I am not sold on him and have found the last few seasons disappointing, not just because of the wins/loses but because they haven't looked like a well coached team and have often looked unprepared. I hope it was due to factors mostly out of his control. I'm waiting for him to put it all together and have the team look like a well coached, consistent team.

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I posted this in another thread. Thought some people might not have seen it so pasting it here.
 
 
 

All the angst about recruiting.

These are not normal times. 

This is not a normal recruiting cycle.

If a program is fortunate enough to get a kid on campus, official or not, that’s a huge advantage.

Some kids are going to make the decision of their lives based on Zoom calls. Could you imagine making a career decision that way?

Some kids are gonna make decisions based on incomplete information. That probably doesn’t help IU right now, as recent on court success is not our strongest selling point.

This talk about CAM having just 1-2 years to prove himself might, and that’s a big might, be valid under normal circumstances. Hell, we will be fortunate if this season even resembles a season.

Folks on here calling for CAM’s head have an agenda, imo. Want to see improvement, for sure, but this is not the year to make a definitive decision about the direction of the program 

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I don't want to keep belaboring the same points.  We have to win more games this year.  To do that we need a lot of things to go right.  We have to get more out of Hunter and Race.  TJD has to stay healthy.  Either Phinisee needs to stay healthy or Lander has to be the answer.  We kind of know what Brunk, Al, and Armaan will bring which is middle to lower tier power 5 play.  Geronimo, Leal, and Galloway are probably not ready to contribute much. 

So we need nearly everything to go our way this year.  However, if we had a talented and well rounded recruiting class on deck for 2021 it would take some of the pressure off.  This is my biggest concern about this class. 

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13 hours ago, go_iu_bb said:

In that same timeframe Purdue had 11 top 4 finishes.

If you look at just the last 10 years those teams are even more dominate:

Michigan: 6

MSU: 9

Purdue: 6

Wisconsin: 9

Maryland since joining B1G: 4 of 6 seasons

That's 2 dominate teams and 2 teams that have finished top 4 more often than not. This shows that doing consistently well in conference isn't impossible, even now. Wisconsin hasn't had that HoF coach the whole time.

IU the last 20: 8 times. The last 10: 2 (both 1st place)

I agree that it's coaching. IU hasn't had good coaches the last 20 years. The jury is still out on Miller but his record hasn't been great so far. Hopefully this will be the breakout year.

This is the thing with picking a time span, and particularly the last 20 seasons, when IU has gone through multiple coaching changes following the firing of RMK, and even more significantly, when the Sampson fiasco / firing resulted in the complete dismantling of IU's program and self-imposed sanctions.

What does the last 20 seasons tell you, as to IU, and is it actually fair or accurate to measure them, with those significant program changes/dismantling, against other schools who, of course, did not go through that? No, it isn't fair or accurate.

We are where we are. We are now on our 4th coach since RMK in this period. During that period:

- Davis, with RMK's players, had us in the Final against MD. But for Coverdale's injuries, we may well have won that game.

- Sampson had us at 24-4 and a title contender before Sampsongate and his firing, ended that. That team was outstanding. Then came the fallout and complete dismantling of IU's basketball program.

- Crean won several B1G titles and had IU as a repeat SW16 team, and the country's longest-running #1 ranked team, but couldn't balance his classes or build any kind of consistently good defense, his recruiting went South, and it wasn't enough.

- CAM has improved his teams each year. Last year we were in the tourney but for the Covid shut-down - that's not on him. Last year's team averaged only 12.6 TO's and had a top 25 D, still with Crean's recruits. This year I believe we have 2 of Crean's recruits left, and three years of Mr. Indiana basketball players committed to CAM. This year's team has added Lander, the #1 PG in his original class. The future looks pretty good.

We should start to see the type of higher conference rankings we all want.

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9 minutes ago, CincyHoosier said:

I don't want to keep belaboring the same points.  We have to win more games this year.  To do that we need a lot of things to go right.  We have to get more out of Hunter and Race.  TJD has to stay healthy.  Either Phinisee needs to stay healthy or Lander has to be the answer.  We kind of know what Brunk, Al, and Armaan will bring which is middle to lower tier power 5 play.  Geronimo, Leal, and Galloway are probably not ready to contribute much. 

So we need nearly everything to go our way this year.  However, if we had a talented and well rounded recruiting class on deck for 2021 it would take some of the pressure off.  This is my biggest concern about this class. 

I agree with a lot of your points here except for a couple. While I agree that we know what to expect at this point from Brunk and Durham, Franklin was just a freshman last year and showed flashes of good play. So I don't think we can say we know what he brings this year as it he could make a jump in productivity. It also sounds like Galloway is doing really well in practice so we might get more out of him than you expect. 

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4 hours ago, Shapopojoe said:

Ummmm...Yeah. 7th place in the Big Ten is disappointing. We should be hovering in the top 3 period. I could give a shit about our national ranking. Are we saying we have joined the Creightons and Indiana State's as being satisfied with goals of reaching ranked status in the top 20??? Give me a break....no wonder Purdue is peeling off recruits if this is the mindset...Yay! We are ranked !!! Yay! We are 7th place in the Big Ten! Take that Purdue!!! Ugh

I couldn't disagree more and I'll leave it at that.  If IU is a top-20 team going forward, lots of good things will happen.

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6 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

I agree with a lot of your points here except for a couple. While I agree that we know what to expect at this point from Brunk and Durham, Franklin was just a freshman last year and showed flashes of good play. So I don't think we can say we know what he brings this year as it he could make a jump in productivity. It also sounds like Galloway is doing really well in practice so we might get more out of him than you expect. 

I've heard that about Galloway too, we'll see.  I like Armaan but I'm not sure he's a difference maker to get us from middle of the road Big 10 to top 4-5.

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6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

This is the thing with picking a time span, and particularly the last 20 seasons, when IU has gone through multiple coaching changes following the firing of RMK, and even more significantly, when the Sampson fiasco / firing resulted in the complete dismantling of IU's program and self-imposed sanctions.

What does the last 20 seasons tell you, as to IU, and is it actually fair or accurate to measure them, with those significant program changes/dismantling, against other schools who, of course, did not go through that? No, it isn't fair or accurate.

We are where we are. We are now on our 4th coach since RMK in this period. During that period:

- Davis, with RMK's players, had us in the Final against MD. But for Coverdale's injuries, we may well have won that game.

- Sampson had us at 24-4 and a title contender before Sampsongate and his firing, ended that. That team was outstanding. Then came the fallout and complete dismantling of IU's basketball program.

- Crean won several B1G titles and had IU as a repeat SW16 team, and the country's longest-running #1 ranked team, but couldn't balance his classes or build any kind of consistently good defense, his recruiting went South, and it wasn't enough.

- CAM has improved his teams each year. Last year we were in the tourney but for the Covid shut-down - that's not on him. Last year's team averaged only 12.6 TO's and had a top 25 D, still with Crean's recruits. This year I believe we have 2 of Crean's recruits left, and three years of Mr. Indiana basketball players committed to CAM. This year's team has added Lander, the #1 PG in his original class. The future looks pretty good.

We should start to see the type of higher conference rankings we all want.

Literally south, to Georgia haha

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2 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

This is the thing with picking a time span, and particularly the last 20 seasons, when IU has gone through multiple coaching changes following the firing of RMK, and even more significantly, when the Sampson fiasco / firing resulted in the complete dismantling of IU's program and self-imposed sanctions.

What does the last 20 seasons tell you, as to IU, and is it actually fair or accurate to measure them, with those significant program changes/dismantling, against other schools who, of course, did not go through that? No, it isn't fair or accurate.

We are where we are. We are now on our 4th coach since RMK in this period. During that period:

- Davis, with RMK's players, had us in the Final against MD. But for Coverdale's injuries, we may well have won that game.

- Sampson had us at 24-4 and a title contender before Sampsongate and his firing, ended that. That team was outstanding. Then came the fallout and complete dismantling of IU's basketball program.

- Crean won several B1G titles and had IU as a repeat SW16 team, and the country's longest-running #1 ranked team, but couldn't balance his classes or build any kind of consistently good defense, his recruiting went South, and it wasn't enough.

- CAM has improved his teams each year. Last year we were in the tourney but for the Covid shut-down - that's not on him. Last year's team averaged only 12.6 TO's and had a top 25 D, still with Crean's recruits. This year I believe we have 2 of Crean's recruits left, and three years of Mr. Indiana basketball players committed to CAM. This year's team has added Lander, the #1 PG in his original class. The future looks pretty good.

We should start to see the type of higher conference rankings we all want.

I'm well aware of what IU has been through the past 20 years. Excuses can be made but results still matter.

The point of those posts was to dispute what IU Scott was saying which was essentially that it's unrealistic to expect a team to be able to finish near the top of the B1G every year or at least on a consistent basis. Those numbers show that 2 teams have been able to do that for 20 years, with a few more not every year but still consistently. 

The 10 year numbers in the post you quoted aren't a good range, either? That is the span of time that the players IU is now recruiting will be able to remember and most closely reflect the current B1G. 1 of the 2 teams that has finished in the top 4 of the B1G in 9/10 seasons had a coaching change in that time, as did IU. Crean either finished 1st in the conference or outside of the top 4.

I'm sorry if the numbers don't look good, but the fact is that IU hasn't been very good recently. That is the IU the recruits know. 

I hope everything works out and this team plays well consistently and that carries over into future teams. That type of consistency has been missing at IU for a long time.

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Isn't the B1G only 3 or 4 years removed from a season of only 2 or 3 ranked teams with MSU being the only fringe national competitor, flipping in and out of the top 10?  In typical years, a top 20 team would have you in the 3rd-5th range.  

I too want to be convinced this year.  All the thought of headaches are gone.  This team, even Al seem totally bought in.  Yada yada about chemistry.  Now is the time for a jump, individually and as a team.  

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59 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

I'm well aware of what IU has been through the past 20 years. Excuses can be made but results still matter.

The point of those posts was to dispute what IU Scott was saying which was essentially that it's unrealistic to expect a team to be able to finish near the top of the B1G every year or at least on a consistent basis. Those numbers show that 2 teams have been able to do that for 20 years, with a few more not every year but still consistently. 

The 10 year numbers in the post you quoted aren't a good range, either? That is the span of time that the players IU is now recruiting will be able to remember and most closely reflect the current B1G. 1 of the 2 teams that has finished in the top 4 of the B1G in 9/10 seasons had a coaching change in that time, as did IU. Crean either finished 1st in the conference or outside of the top 4.

I'm sorry if the numbers don't look good, but the fact is that IU hasn't been very good recently. That is the IU the recruits know. 

I hope everything works out and this team plays well consistently and that carries over into future teams. That type of consistency has been missing at IU for a long time.

OK, it's not that the numbers "don't look good" it's that IU had Crean during that period -- and had multiple B1G titles -- and then went through another coaching change after his teams / recruiting fell off badly. Your and others calling that kind of development "an excuse" is itself an excuse to cast numbers around without really considering context. Yes, the last 10 years in fact have another coaching change, but also yes, IU, while it did have multiple B1G titles and SW16 appearances during that period, did not perform at the level we'd want, that's why Crean was fired.

I agree it is realistic to expect that at least a few teams can have consistently top 4 finishes over an extended period. But you also should recognize and agree that IU's situation has been impacted by all the coaching changes during this period. That's the point.

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2 hours ago, CincyHoosier said:

I've heard that about Galloway too, we'll see.  I like Armaan but I'm not sure he's a difference maker to get us from middle of the road Big 10 to top 4-5.

Why do people expect all freshman  to come ion and contribute right away.  If they don't they are lump in a category of just an average player who will not get better.  To me I saw enough out of Franklin last year to think he will contribute more this year and by his junior and senior year will be a key player.  I loved it when most of the freshman came in and waited their turn and wasn't expected to contribute right away.

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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

OK, it's not that the numbers "don't look good" it's that IU had Crean during that period -- and had multiple B1G titles -- and then went through another coaching change after his teams / recruiting fell off badly. Your and others calling that kind of development "an excuse" is itself an excuse to cast numbers around without really considering context. Yes, the last 10 years in fact have another coaching change, but also yes, IU, while it did have multiple B1G titles and SW16 appearances during that period, did not perform at the level we'd want, that's why Crean was fired.

I agree it is realistic to expect that at least a few teams can have consistently top 4 finishes over an extended period. But you also should recognize and agree that IU's situation has been impacted by all the coaching changes during this period. That's the point.

You're right. Replacing bad coaches with other bad coaches doesn't help a team have sustained success. Davis was bad then replaced by a good but dirty coach in Sampson. Sampson ended in disaster and was replaced by bad coach Crean. Crean was replaced by Miller. That hire looked good on paper but so far the results have been lacking. Miller may end up being a good hire but it's comical to pretend like the results so far leave no reason for concern. 

Miller's team have improved each year, true. But they've gone from really bad, to just bad, and last year achieved the level of bad to mediocre. Sure, there have been reasons for those teams to perform badly but many teams have adversity and some of those who are well coached will overcome that. Wisconsin last year. MSU has had some injuries to some of their starters in recent years. Yet they still do well because of good coaching.

So what kind timeframe makes sense for judging a coach? Is it really too much to want to see concrete evidence of improvement in year 4 after 3 years of uninspired play without having to delve into the analytics to find it?

Lack of results matter to recruits. A lot of players talk about offense so they pay attention to that. IU's under Miller has been disjointed and out of sync. The recruits see that. Recruits also see that IU hasn't really been relevant very often in the time they can remember. Do you think the reasons behind that matter to them? They remember a team that has been bad more often than not with brief bursts of really good only to flare out the next season. I recognize the reasons why IU has been bad for a long time, but I, unlike some, also recognize that the recruits probably don't care about that. They just know that IU hasn't been a consistent winner in their lifetime and still aren't so far under Miller.

So I think this year is important. The team needs to start looking like a team and playing better than the sum of its parts. If they do that then they'll finish higher than 7th in the conference. If they don't then recruiting will get even harder.

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2 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

You're right. Replacing bad coaches with other bad coaches doesn't help a team have sustained success. Davis was bad then replaced by a good but dirty coach in Sampson. Sampson ended in disaster and was replaced by bad coach Crean. Crean was replaced by Miller. That hire looked good on paper but so far the results have been lacking. Miller may end up being a good hire but it's comical to pretend like the results so far leave no reason for concern. 

Miller's team have improved each year, true. But they've gone from really bad, to just bad, and last year achieved the level of bad to mediocre. Sure, there have been reasons for those teams to perform badly but many teams have adversity and some of those who are well coached will overcome that. Wisconsin last year. MSU has had some injuries to some of their starters in recent years. Yet they still do well because of good coaching.

So what kind timeframe makes sense for judging a coach? Is it really too much to want to see concrete evidence of improvement in year 4 after 3 years of uninspired play without having to delve into the analytics to find it?

Lack of results matter to recruits. A lot of players talk about offense so they pay attention to that. IU's under Miller has been disjointed and out of sync. The recruits see that. Recruits also see that IU hasn't really been relevant very often in the time they can remember. Do you think the reasons behind that matter to them? They remember a team that has been bad more often than not with brief bursts of really good only to flare out the next season. I recognize the reasons why IU has been bad for a long time, but I, unlike some, also recognize that the recruits probably don't care about that. They just know that IU hasn't been a consistent winner in their lifetime and still aren't so far under Miller.

So I think this year is important. The team needs to start looking like a team and playing better than the sum of its parts. If they do that then they'll finish higher than 7th in the conference. If they don't then recruiting will get even harder.

You have a decidedly negative take on CAM. I don't share your view, and last  year's team was not bad to mediocre, it was a solid tourney team. You also then continue to downplay the history of this team with comments like many teams have adversity. OK. I get the impression you want to get be negative on the outlook for IU. I don't share that outlook.

Recruits see the last 3 years Mr. Indiana Basketball players going to IU. Hey, were they recruits? Uh, yeah. You're completely disregarding the level of success CAM has had in recruiting. That's the foundation. 

This year is important. So is every year going forward.

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7 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

You're right. Replacing bad coaches with other bad coaches doesn't help a team have sustained success. Davis was bad then replaced by a good but dirty coach in Sampson. Sampson ended in disaster and was replaced by bad coach Crean. Crean was replaced by Miller. That hire looked good on paper but so far the results have been lacking. Miller may end up being a good hire but it's comical to pretend like the results so far leave no reason for concern. 

Miller's team have improved each year, true. But they've gone from really bad, to just bad, and last year achieved the level of bad to mediocre. Sure, there have been reasons for those teams to perform badly but many teams have adversity and some of those who are well coached will overcome that. Wisconsin last year. MSU has had some injuries to some of their starters in recent years. Yet they still do well because of good coaching.

So what kind timeframe makes sense for judging a coach? Is it really too much to want to see concrete evidence of improvement in year 4 after 3 years of uninspired play without having to delve into the analytics to find it?

Lack of results matter to recruits. A lot of players talk about offense so they pay attention to that. IU's under Miller has been disjointed and out of sync. The recruits see that. Recruits also see that IU hasn't really been relevant very often in the time they can remember. Do you think the reasons behind that matter to them? They remember a team that has been bad more often than not with brief bursts of really good only to flare out the next season. I recognize the reasons why IU has been bad for a long time, but I, unlike some, also recognize that the recruits probably don't care about that. They just know that IU hasn't been a consistent winner in their lifetime and still aren't so far under Miller.

So I think this year is important. The team needs to start looking like a team and playing better than the sum of its parts. If they do that then they'll finish higher than 7th in the conference. If they don't then recruiting will get even harder.

I don't think anyone has said they are satisfied with the current results.  what some can see is a gradual improvement each year and it is talking longer than we expected.  I get it that people are impatient and want instant gratification but that doesn't always happen.  I know some will come back and say they have been waiting 25 years o they have been patient but Archie should not be blamed for the the 22 years before he got here.

I know people probably get tired of this argument but look at how coach K, Jay Wright, Tony Bennett, Beilien, Izzo and how they started their careers at their current job.  It has been proven that patience can be good and if you just let it play out good things will happen.

Also why not let year 4 play out before you judge how it goes.  You come across as thinking year 4 is already in the toilet before it has even started.  that is all we are asking and wondering why so many is already writing this season off before we have even played a game.

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8 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Why do people expect all freshman  to come ion and contribute right away.  If they don't they are lump in a category of just an average player who will not get better.  To me I saw enough out of Franklin last year to think he will contribute more this year and by his junior and senior year will be a key player.  I loved it when most of the freshman came in and waited their turn and wasn't expected to contribute right away.

I'm not lumping anyone in any category.  I'm simply stating my opinion.  I think Armaan is a solid role player/fringe starter on a top 25 level team.  I don't expect him to develop into All Big 10 type guy.

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