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1 minute ago, CincyHoosier said:

I'm not lumping anyone in any category.  I'm simply stating my opinion.  I think Armaan is a solid role player/fringe starter on a top 25 level team.  I don't expect him to develop into All Big 10 type guy.

You kind of make it like a bad thing to  be a very good role player.  Most championship teams need to have guys like that tome off the bench and contribute.  Without Hillman and Eyl in 87 we would have not won the championship because each one of them played a key role in at least one game in the tournament.

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https://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/news/three-programs-that-could-finish-strong-in-late-period

 

The Hoosiers are no stranger to top-15 finishes in the recruiting rankings and Archie Miller’s program could be in line to do it again. With just one commitment from four-star center Logan Duncomb Indiana currently holds the No. 71 ranked class, but that could change quickly. Five-star guard Aminu Mohammed is moving closer to a decision and the Hoosiers appear to be a top contender to receive a commitment from him. Four-star power forward Mason Miller also has the Hoosiers on his final list with a decision coming soon. Commitments from those two prospects would put Indiana back in the top 15.

 

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55 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

You have a decidedly negative take on CAM. I don't share your view, and last  year's team was not bad to mediocre, it was a solid tourney team. You also then continue to downplay the history of this team with comments like many teams have adversity. OK. I get the impression you want to get be negative on the outlook for IU. I don't share that outlook.

Recruits see the last 3 years Mr. Indiana Basketball players going to IU. Hey, were they recruits? Uh, yeah. You're completely disregarding the level of success CAM has had in recruiting. That's the foundation. 

This year is important. So is every year going forward.

I'm not negative on him but I'm not sold on him, as I've said multiple times. His first three years have not impressed me. Have they impressed you? If so, why?

Yes, he has his foundation now. So is thinking that better than 7th place in the B1G in year 4 too much to ask with that foundation and a stud (possibly 2 with Lander)? If so, how much longer does he get with his foundation in place before the team can be realistically expected to see improvements in results and B1G standings?

We'll see how he does with Miller and Mohammed but if he doesn't land them, which seems likely at this point, then '21 recruiting doesn't look good. A class in which there was a lot of hype for the state of IN and Miller has been at IU long enough to establish relationships with the recruits. This could still be a great class if he lands those 2. Far from great if he whiffs. If he does whiff do you think that has nothing to do with his first 3 years at IU and how down IU has been during their lifetimes?

 

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

I don't think anyone has said they are satisfied with the current results.  what some can see is a gradual improvement each year and it is talking longer than we expected.  I get it that people are impatient and want instant gratification but that doesn't always happen.  I know some will come back and say they have been waiting 25 years o they have been patient but Archie should not be blamed for the the 22 years before he got here.

I know people probably get tired of this argument but look at how coach K, Jay Wright, Tony Bennett, Beilien, Izzo and how they started their careers at their current job.  It has been proven that patience can be good and if you just let it play out good things will happen.

Also why not let year 4 play out before you judge how it goes.  You come across as thinking year 4 is already in the toilet before it has even started.  that is all we are asking and wondering why so many is already writing this season off before we have even played a game.

I think that a 7th place finish in the conference would be disappointing because I think this team is better than that. I've said that multiple times in this thread. How is that "thinking year 4 is already in the toilet"?

Round and round we go. You guys can have the last say, I'm tired of this conversation.

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25 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

I'm not negative on him but I'm not sold on him, as I've said multiple times. His first three years have not impressed me. Have they impressed you? If so, why?

Yes, he has his foundation now. So is thinking that better than 7th place in the B1G in year 4 too much to ask with that foundation and a stud (possibly 2 with Lander)? If so, how much longer does he get with his foundation in place before the team can be realistically expected to see improvements in results and B1G standings?

We'll see how he does with Miller and Mohammed but if he doesn't land them, which seems likely at this point, then '21 recruiting doesn't look good. A class in which there was a lot of hype for the state of IN and Miller has been at IU long enough to establish relationships with the recruits. This could still be a great class if he lands those 2. Far from great if he whiffs. If he does whiff do you think that has nothing to do with his first 3 years at IU and how down IU has been during their lifetimes?

 

I think that a 7th place finish in the conference would be disappointing because I think this team is better than that. I've said that multiple times in this thread. How is that "thinking year 4 is already in the toilet"?

Round and round we go. You guys can have the last say, I'm tired of this conversation.

If this was 15-20 years ago I would probably be right with you with the skeptasim.  Back then I would never be satisfied with anything but a title and nothing else mattered.  I just came to a conclusion that I am not going to let e every thing bother me when it comes to the outcome of sports.  I still want to win big but I realize that it probably won't be like it was under RMK and probably unrealistic to expect it to be like that.  College basketball is a lot different now with more teams capable of winning championships so it  makes it more difficult.

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There were red flags galore with CTC in his first 3 years concerning actual coaching.  He was judged and many spoke rightly.  

Not sure we have any red flags at this point.  Maybe some yellow cautions but what can we make of the offense with only 1 or 2 good shooters and being forced to play 3 bigs with no jumper?  This is the year that all judgements can truly be passed.  This team appears complete.  We need everyone to continue to work and improve.  No reason why they can't or won't.  We shall see what actually transpires.  

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5 hours ago, IU Scott said:

I don't think anyone has said they are satisfied with the current results.  what some can see is a gradual improvement each year and it is talking longer than we expected.  I get it that people are impatient and want instant gratification but that doesn't always happen.  I know some will come back and say they have been waiting 25 years o they have been patient but Archie should not be blamed for the the 22 years before he got here.

I agree with you that Archie, and the team, should not be blamed for the 22 years prior to his arrival.

At this point, however, I don’t think expecting/hoping for a better than 7th-9th type of finish in the conference is “instant gratification”.  I’m not looking for a natty, and really like the foundation that is being built, but would like to see improvement from the BT records of 9-9, 8-12 and last years 9-11.  I’m curious when you think having higher exceptions is no longer considered instant gratification? 4,5, 6, years?  

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5 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

I agree with you that Archie, and the team, should not be blamed for the 22 years prior to his arrival.

At this point, however, I don’t think expecting/hoping for a better than 7th-9th type of finish in the conference is “instant gratification”.  I’m not looking for a natty, and really like the foundation that is being built, but would like to see improvement from the BT records of 9-9, 8-12 and last years 9-11.  I’m curious when you think having higher exceptions is no longer considered instant gratification? 4,5, 6, years?  

Yeah I’m curious too.  How soon are we allowed to hope for an above .500 record in conference before we are asking for Instant gratification. Crean was left with nothing and wasn’t a good coach and he did it in year 4.  Then won one of the toughest conferences ever in year 5.  
 

Anybody think we are contending for a Big Ten title next year? 

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4 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Maybe. But everybody who doesn’t have crimson colored glasses is thinking 6-10 range. These guys are right more often than not 

Honestly, how much separation is there between the 10th and 20th ranked team?  I haven't dissected the other teams.  Know some of the top players in the league did not go pro.  It's a stacked year.  Honestly, being a homer, I can see this team surprising.  Can and will Jerome, Armaan, and Race make a leap.  We've heard interviews about Race already.  Thought someone said Jerome is looking like old confident Jerome(the public has never seen).  Armaan showed a ton of promise, not sure why people don't think he will ever amount to much.  He had as solid of a freshman year as you would hope the 151st ranked recruit would have.  Can and will Rob stay healthy and continue to improve without setback?  Lander was the literal #1 point guard in the country, right?  If Galloway, Geronimo, or Leal make positive contributions it will be icing on the cake.  I'm seriously getting excited about this team.  

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3 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Honestly, how much separation is there between the 10th and 20th ranked team?  I haven't dissected the other teams.  Know some of the top players in the league did not go pro.  It's a stacked year.  Honestly, being a homer, I can see this team surprising.  Can and will Jerome, Armaan, and Race make a leap.  We've heard interviews about Race already.  Thought someone said Jerome is looking like old confident Jerome(the public has never seen).  Armaan showed a ton of promise, not sure why people don't think he will ever amount to much.  He had as solid of a freshman year as you would hope the 151st ranked recruit would have.  Can and will Rob stay healthy and continue to improve without setback?  Lander was the literal #1 point guard in the country, right?  If Galloway, Geronimo, or Leal make positive contributions it will be icing on the cake.  I'm seriously getting excited about this team.  

Don’t care about the separation. Archie is paid to contend for Big Ten Titles. 
 

As of now we don’t look poised to do that till year 6 at best 

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1 hour ago, Brass Cannon said:

Don’t care about the separation. Archie is paid to contend for Big Ten Titles. 
 

As of now we don’t look poised to do that till year 6 at best 

Last year the difference in 10 and 4th was 3 games.  So are you saying that if Archie had just won 3 more games last you would have a different opinion.  It has taken a lot of coaches more than 3 years to get their teams into title contention.  Luckily for some very elite coaches the fans did not have a say if they kept their job.

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10 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Last year the difference in 10 and 4th was 3 games.  So are you saying that if Archie had just won 3 more games last you would have a different opinion.  It has taken a lot of coaches more than 3 years to get their teams into title contention.  Luckily for some very elite coaches the fans did not have a say if they kept their job.

 

10 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Last year the difference in 10 and 4th was 3 games.  So are you saying that if Archie had just won 3 more games last you would have a different opinion.  It has taken a lot of coaches more than 3 years to get their teams into title contention.  Luckily for some very elite coaches the fans did not have a say if they kept their job.

I hear this all the time. How many coaches who fail to go above .500 in their conference in the first 3 seasons go on to have final four teams. Let’s stick to the 21st century as well  I am pretty sure the answer is 1 coach 

If this such a hard thing to ask a coach to do how come Illinois and Ohio State could do it Michigan poised to do it  Greg Gard has done it 4 of his first 5 seasons  

Being above .500 isn’t a hard thing to do.  The fact Archie hasn’t done it and doesn’t look poised to do it means something  

 

 

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9 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Last year the difference in 10 and 4th was 3 games.  So are you saying that if Archie had just won 3 more games last you would have a different opinion.  It has taken a lot of coaches more than 3 years to get their teams into title contention.  Luckily for some very elite coaches the fans did not have a say if they kept their job.

I would think more highly of Miller if he had won 74.2% of games overall and 60% in conference last year as opposed to 64.5% and 45%, respectively, that he actually won. I can't speak for Brass Cannon but, yes, that would've done a lot to relieve my doubts.

You act as though 3 games isn't much. It's 15% of conference games.

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17 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

I would think more highly of Miller if he had won 74.2% of games overall and 60% in conference last year as opposed to 64.5% and 45%, respectively, that he actually won. I can't speak for Brass Cannon but, yes, that would've done a lot to relieve my doubts.

You act as though 3 games isn't much. It's 15% of conference games.

And it’s being over .500 instead of under it.  It means something.  

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4 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Below .500 is below .500. Archie is the second highest paid coach with a more than large enough recruiting.  
 

Those two games had us 11th in the big ten.  11th in the Big Ten should not be acceptable 

You're right, and I'm kinda tilting at windmills here, but...

There were 3 very winnable B10 games we lost last year (Maryland and Wisconsin at home, and U of I on the road) that you could attribute to either coaching or player chemistry/leadership. Winning those would have put us at 12-8 tied for 4th with the Whinin Illini. 

If you choose the latter here, those excuses should be gone. Archie has pretty much his team now, If you choose the former, well I guess we'll see more of that this year...

I know it's hypothetical, but something to chew on...

 

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We go through this discussion every year it seems like. I for one am sick and tired of being middle of the pack or worse. I don't care who the coach is get the Hoosiers to the top of the conference and keep us there. The arguments used to support CAM and his recruiting can be used against him for team success.  He is the only coach in IU history to get 3 straight Mr Basketball from Indiana yet what do we have to show for it. Until we start seeing it in wins and losses this topic will never die. We will hear from everyone comparing what CTC did in year fill in the blank and the other side will provide a list of Coach K, izzo etc.. were right where CAM is. Will we ever get to the point where we can bury this argument.  I hope so. I am over hanging out with the bottom dwellers of the BIG year after year. There is no reason at Indiana University that we as fans should be in position to keep having this discussion.  Just go win some freaking games!!!

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6 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

We go through this discussion every year it seems like. I for one am sick and tired of being middle of the pack or worse. I don't care who the coach is get the Hoosiers to the top of the conference and keep us there. The arguments used to support CAM and his recruiting can be used against him for team success.  He is the only coach in IU history to get 3 straight Mr Basketball from Indiana yet what do we have to show for it. Until we start seeing it in wins and losses this topic will never die. We will hear from everyone comparing what CTC did in year fill in the blank and the other side will provide a list of Coach K, izzo etc.. were right where CAM is. Will we ever get to the point where we can bury this argument.  I hope so. I am over hanging out with the bottom dwellers of the BIG year after year. There is no reason at Indiana University that we as fans should be in position to keep having this discussion.  Just go win some freaking games!!!

with all due respect here...his Mr. Basketball pick ups- Romeo was a star but the roster was terrible around him, TJD showed out last year and we were set to make the tourney, and Leal hasn't played yet.  I think this year things will start to come to fruition.  I am tired of being middle to the bottom of the pack too, but I think we are about to turn a corner.

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23 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

You're right, and I'm kinda tilting at windmills here, but...

There were 3 very winnable B10 games we lost last year (Maryland and Wisconsin at home, and U of I on the road) that you could attribute to either coaching or player chemistry/leadership. Winning those would have put us at 12-8 tied for 4th with the Whinin Illini. 

If you choose the latter here, those excuses should be gone. Archie has pretty much his team now, If you choose the former, well I guess we'll see more of that this year...

I know it's hypothetical, but something to chew on...

 

The problem is we aren’t winning those games.  These teams with less talent punch us in the mouth and we cry in the corner instead of punching back. 
 

Then Archie talks at the press conference about seeing some changes.  Yet the next game guys come out and do the same stupid stuff and it just repeats. 

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4 minutes ago, gnet550 said:

with all due respect here...his Mr. Basketball pick ups- Romeo was a star but the roster was terrible around him, TJD showed out last year and we were set to make the tourney, and Leal hasn't played yet.  I think this year things will start to come to fruition.  I am tired of being middle to the bottom of the pack too, but I think we are about to turn a corner.

But but but. Thats what people keep hyping on why he's the guy. No other IU coach has done that. Etc.. i knew the rebuttal before i posted i like to stir the pot some.  For me the jury is still out on whether or not CAM is the guy. I hope we turn the corner soon before I get to the i really could care less point or I don't care if we cheat just win the PU fans accuse us of doing it anyway.  Partly tongue in cheek . Lije I said I am not in favor of cheating to win but it might get to the point sometime

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18 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

The problem is we aren’t winning those games.  These teams with less talent punch us in the mouth and we cry in the corner instead of punching back. 
 

Then Archie talks at the press conference about seeing some changes.  Yet the next game guys come out and do the same stupid stuff and it just repeats. 

I'm wondering if you are starting to troll now.  These teams with less talent?  Maryland is about to send two guys through the draft, beat this team by one.

Illinios had/has two guys that turned down the draft, beat this team by 1, on the road.  

Lost to Wisconsin by 4 late in the season.  Same Wisconsin team preseason top 10 that return their top 5 scorers.  

Beat Iowa, preseason top 5, has the preseason NPOY.

There was a lot to be desired last year in regards to mental fortitude, especially on the road.  I honestly think there were a few guys that just made life on the team hell.  

I find it interesting that the preseason top 3 teams in the B1G this year, we were only separated by a total of 6 points in the last three games.  2 being one point losses.  hum 

Are we that far off of them?  Add a #1 point guard in the nation.  Race, Rob, and Jerome got a full healthy off season for the first time ever.  

Did I mention I'm starting to get excited about this team?

I do need to give you credit on the Archie saying big changes coming with actually zero changes happening.  Start a freaking walk on for all I care.  Just send the message loud and clear.  

Edited by NotIThatLives
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1 hour ago, Brass Cannon said:

The problem is we aren’t winning those games.  These teams with less talent punch us in the mouth and we cry in the corner instead of punching back. 
 

Then Archie talks at the press conference about seeing some changes.  Yet the next game guys come out and do the same stupid stuff and it just repeats. 

We aren't...and I presented the two most talked about reasons WHY we didn't win games like those...

Either

A) Archie's coaching

B) Lack of player leadership/team chemistry

And one of those (for lack of a better term) "excuses" should now be gone...

The one remaining will be a big indicator on how many IU fans feel the direction the team is going...

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