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Kadin Shedrick Commits to Virginia


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Just now, Blazin Hazin said:

I think Zeisloft should also be included in the group of diamonds in the rough.  Ironically- I think Zeisloft's success probably led to one of Crean's bigger mistakes- Gelon.  

When looking at Archie, one name that gives me the impression he's a good talent evaluator is McKinley Wright.  Of course- Wright didn't play for Archie, but the fact that Archie was after a kid ranked 229th in the nation and later averaged 14 ppg and 5 apg is pretty impressive.  

He was on Hunter before he was top 100 also. He was recruiting him to Dayton which is probably let us swoop in and snag him

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1 hour ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

Crean's misses far outweigh the diamonds in the rough.

Capobianco

Muniru

Michel

Mosquera-Perea

Jurkin

April

Priller

Gelon

 

That's not even factoring in other guys that could be considered mistakes:

Etherington

Hollowell

Hoetzel

CuJo

 

So all that vs Oladipo and OG as diamonds in the rough. Maybe Sheehey if you want to count him. Morgan was a 4 star recruit, he doesn't count.

Don't think it's fair to count Michel (who was never cleared) and Perea (who was highly ranked).  Hollowell and CuJo were also well thought of among those who ranked players.  With the possible exception of Michel (because I just don't remember enough to say), none of the other three were considered reaches and as someone said earlier, many of the reaches were just bodies for practice and the bench anyway.  The (bowel) movement class was the most disappointing for me and that's not really on Crean.  Most of those kids were well thought of and just didn't pan out.

If you want to be critical of Crean's recruiting, probably the greatest thing to be critical of was his inability to get Indiana kids.  He was just poor in that regard, but as far as hits and misses (VS. expectations), I don't think he was bad at all.  Every coach not named Self, K and Calipari has players that are brought in to hold down the end of the bench and study/practice hard.

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2 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Don't think it's fair to count Michel (who was never cleared) and Perea (who was highly ranked).  Hollowell and CuJo were also well thought of among those who ranked players.  With the possible exception of Michel (because I just don;t remember enough to say), none of the other three were considered reaches and as someone said earlier, many of the reaches were just bodies for practice and the bench anyway.  The (bowel) movement class was the most disappointing for me and that's not really on Crean.  Most of those kids were well thought of and just didn't pan out.

If you want to be critical of Crean's recruiting, probably the greatest thing to be critical of was his inability to get Indiana kids.  He was just poor in that regard, but as far as hits and misses (VS. expectations), I don't think he was bad at all.  Every coach not named Self, K and Calipari has players that are brought in to hold down the end of the bench and study/practice hard.

The point was made that he was good at evaluating talent. So it's absolutely fair to count all of them. And let's compare Guy Marc-Michel's career to someone like Enes Kanter, who was also not cleared. How is the talent comparison there?

Also, you don't see other big time programs recruiting scrubs for "bodies for practice and the bench".

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2 minutes ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

The point was made that he was good at evaluating talent. So it's absolutely fair to count all of them. And let's compare Guy Marc-Michel's career to someone like Enes Kanter, who was also not cleared. How is the talent comparison there?

Guy is playing professionally in France.  He may not be Enes Kanter, but he's getting paid.

...and come on...you're seriously going to say that no one thought Perea, Curtis Jones and Jeremy Hollowell were high D1 players going into college?  If he's so terrible at evaluating talent, then a lot of the folks creating the rankings are terrible as well.

There are a bunch of coaches that never find even ONE Oladipo, Wade or Anunoby.  I think you're a little over the top in your criticism of his ability to evaluate talent.

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2 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Guy is playing professionally in France.  He may not be Enes Kanter, but he's getting paid.

...and come on...you're seriously going to say that no one thought Perea, Curtis Jones and Jeremy Hollowell were high D1 players going into college?  If he's so terrible at evaluating talent, then a lot of the folks creating the rankings are terrible as well.

There are a bunch of coaches that never find even ONE Oladipo, Wade or Anunoby.  I think you're a little over the top in your criticism of his ability to evaluate talent.

This is funny. If Crean gets credit for ignoring the "folks creating the rankings" when recruiting Vic and OG, then he also gets points taken away for not ignoring the "folks creating the rankings" on his misses.

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14 minutes ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

This is funny. If Crean gets credit for ignoring the "folks creating the rankings" when recruiting Vic and OG, then he also gets points taken away for not ignoring the "folks creating the rankings" on his misses.

Again, He may have been well aware of the shortcomings of many of those players.  Without asking him, we don't know.  To really judge his ability to evaluate, you'd have to know what his expectations were before those guys played for him.

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15 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Coaches shouldnt care about rankings. 

I think you have to consider them as a part of your evaluation, but I also think there's a time to look past them when you see a player blowing up or when you simply have a lesser role in mind for a certain player.  As Blazin' said earlier, it's likely Crean saw Grant Gelon as his next Nick Zeisloft, but that was clearly a miss, although I wonder if it was more of a mental miss.  I saw evidence that Gelon could shoot, but man, did he appear to have a really fragile ego.

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4 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

Again, He may have been well aware of the shortcomings of many of those players.  Without asking him, we don't know.  To really judge his ability to evaluate, you'd have to know what his expectations were before those guys played for him.

I can't disagree with the argument that he was recruiting guys just to have bodies, you are probably right in that respect. But that in and of itself is such an indictment of him, not from a talent evaluation aspect, but from a pure competency aspect.

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31 minutes ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

Also, you don't see other big time programs recruiting scrubs for "bodies for practice and the bench".

No school has a 13-man rotation and we know that Crean was not recruiting at the level of K and Calipari.  That's not a question of ability to evaluate.  That's a question of being able to sell the program.

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1 hour ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I agree.  It ruffles some feathers here but I will always defend Crean's ability to spot talent, which really means projecting what a player can become. It's not just the players he landed.  He got on some other nice kids early who we didn't get.

As for David Williams, he never matriculated to IU.  Crean trusted an assistant and that had nothing to do with Crean's eye.  I don't see how that one is relevant.  Priller and April?  They were reaches.  Crean needed bodies.  Wasn't a great situation no matter how you slice it.

I go back on our various boards with many folks ten plus years now.  Per our discussions, many of us were intrigued by Oladipo and Anunoby.  Crean had great vision there.  It was not a fluky thing.  I think Crean could honestly be working in an NBA front office in terms of acquiring talent.

I think it's best for everyone that Crean moved on. His approach on the floor was not my cup of tea, and I have said that for years.  We've been over it ad nauseum.  But, I am willing to give him credit in some respects.

Agree. It's ok to tip the cap because Crean did have an eye for talent. For some reason people think of it as a bad thing. He brought us 2 conf titles when no one else wanted the program (that we could hire). Yes..he also offered some guys that had no business being offered....but people not giving Crean credit for identifying talent is just weak.

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3 minutes ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

I can't disagree with the argument that he was recruiting guys just to have bodies, you are probably right in that respect. But that in and of itself is such an indictment of him, not from a talent evaluation aspect, but from a pure competency aspect.

I think we're mostly on the same page here.  I think Crean was (mostly) able to separate the good from the bad.  I think he fell short in his ability to sell the best players on his program and where he really had egg on his face was with selling Indiana players after some initial success.

I've helped take this way off track, but I think Archie similarly is able to see under the radar talent and I think he's much better at selling the program to the better players.  Time will tell, but I think he's likely better at developing and coaching them as well.

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1 hour ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

Crean's misses far outweigh the diamonds in the rough.

Capobianco

Muniru

Michel

Mosquera-Perea

Jurkin

April

Priller

Gelon

 

That's not even factoring in other guys that could be considered mistakes:

Etherington

Hollowell

Hoetzel

CuJo

 

So all that vs Oladipo and OG as diamonds in the rough. Maybe Sheehey if you want to count him. Morgan was a 4 star recruit, he doesn't count.

Disagree. And including April, Priller, Gelon as mentioned,  as "misses," assumes he was shooting for something more than end of the bench fillers, and that just wasn't the case. Missed, how? Hanner, well, sort of -- he ended up largely a bust, but he was a ranked player who was ranked on his athleticism, he was not a diamond in the rough type. Capobianco?? Bawa? Come on now, I know you know when those guys joined IU and what that team was composed of. Those aren't misses in any book. Bawa committed in 2008.  Capo, class of 2009. Michel? 

Let's be fair here, the context of this discussion is the throw-out statement that Vic and OG were a "consolation" and an "accident," both just not the case, and for the most part these guys above aren't "misses." Hollowell I think does fit that bill, though again he was highly ranked, but Crean stayed on him when OSU backed off. Hoetzel? He was actually pretty good on that team and people were sad to see him transfer.

To me this is more about castigating Crean, out of context. He certainly wasn't perfect, but he did identify and develop some guys way above how they were projected, and you can throw in guys like Watford -- who some teams backed off of, and who started out with no lateral movement, apparent athleticism, and soft on D (the idiotic "cookies" label), and who was developed into a guy who guarded the other guys' best players, including point guards. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Disagree. And including April, Priller, Gelon as mentioned,  as "misses," assumes he was shooting for something more than end of the bench fillers, and that just wasn't the case. Missed, how? Hanner, well, sort of -- he ended up largely a bust, but he was a ranked player who was ranked on his athleticism, he was not a diamond in the rough type. Capobianco?? Bawa? Come on now, I know you know when those guys joined IU and what that team was composed of. Those aren't misses in any book. Bawa committed in 2008.  Capo, class of 2009. Michel? 

Let's be fair here, the context of this discussion is the throw-out statement that Vic and OG were a "consolation" and an "accident," both just not the case, and for the most part these guys above aren't "misses." Hollowell I think does fit that bill, though again he was highly ranked, but Crean stayed on him when OSU backed off. Hoetzel? He was actually pretty good on that team and people were sad to see him transfer.

To me this is more about castigating Crean, out of context. He certainly wasn't perfect, but he did identify and develop some guys way above how they were projected, and you can throw in guys like Watford -- who some teams backed off of, and who started out with no lateral movement, apparent athleticism, and soft on D (the idiotic "cookies" label), and who was developed into a guy who guarded the other guys' best players, including point guards. 

 

Yeah, I guess there are two ways to look at it. You are making excuses for the players that didn't pan out and giving them qualifiers, I'm not going to do that. Crean got a pass on Tijan Jobe. He doesn't get a pass on anyone from Jordy Hulls class and forward. I have to laugh that the excuse given to Crean for the non D-1 players he recruited is that he knew they were end of the bench guys. That's not how you're supposed to recruit at IU. So sure, let's say he did properly evaluate their talent as end of the bench guys. That's not a good thing.

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2 hours ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

Yeah, I guess there are two ways to look at it. You are making excuses for the players that didn't pan out and giving them qualifiers, I'm not going to do that. Crean got a pass on Tijan Jobe. He doesn't get a pass on anyone from Jordy Hulls class and forward. I have to laugh that the excuse given to Crean for the non D-1 players he recruited is that he knew they were end of the bench guys. That's not how you're supposed to recruit at IU. So sure, let's say he did properly evaluate their talent as end of the bench guys. That's not a good thing.

No problem with that view, just replying to the idea they were misses, they really weren’t. 

Giving guys scholies who are end of bench guys is a coaching decision - strategy, you see it at a lot of schools, there are only so many guys who will get real minutes. Definitely pros and cons to argue in that. But regardless, come in now, guys like Capo and Bawa, when Crean was just starting out and the roster was a disaster, have no place in this discussion, and you know that my friend 

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As has been said, no coach recruits 13 guys to be NBA prospects.  I actually wasn’t crazy about Crean’s roster building as you need complementary pieces and I thought he fell short in this regard.   He didn’t assemble the combination of pieces you want in most years.  The team often had huge holes.  Lack of shooters, or ball handling, or experience, etc.  That to me is a different issue. 

But, there’s no way Crean took Priller to be an NBA prospect.  He took him to be an end of the bench guy and because that particular year he needed bodies with size.  That certainly doesn’t deter me from saying he has an eye for talent.  He also was on some diamonds in the rough who went elsewhere and ended up good.  The kid from Birmingham, MI who went to Georgia comes to mind.  But the fact that Crean didn’t close on some kids doesn’t diminish his eye — it confirms it.  Beyond that, no one bats 1.000 anyway.  I’m sure if he had to do it again he would have left Gelon for Missouri State.  

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33 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

As has been said, no coach recruits 13 guys to be NBA prospects.  I actually wasn’t crazy about Crean’s roster building as you need complementary pieces and I thought he fell short in this regard.   He didn’t assemble the combination of pieces you want in most years.  The team often had huge holes.  Lack of shooters, or ball handling, or experience, etc.  That to me is a different issue. 

But, there’s no way Crean took Priller to be an NBA prospect.  He took him to be an end of the bench guy and because that particular year he needed bodies with size.  That certainly doesn’t deter me from saying he has an eye for talent.  He also was on some diamonds in the rough who went elsewhere and ended up good.  The kid from Birmingham, MI who went to Georgia comes to mind.  But the fact that Crean didn’t close on some kids doesn’t diminish his eye — it confirms it.  Beyond that, no one bats 1.000 anyway.  I’m sure if he had to do it again he would have left Gelon for Missouri State.  

Let me know when Archie recruits a Priller. 

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I'll continue with the highjack.

It sounds crazy, but when judging a coach's ability to evaluate talent- I don't really think you should necessarily criticize Crean for who he got. We didn't lose games because of Capo or Bawa- and they left after only a year anyway.  It's not like he passed on Tyler Zeller to get Bawa.  And while Perea and Hollowell were busts- I think almost every other coach wanted them.  (On a very offtopic side-note- I always found it funny that people said Hanner was an amazing athlete.  I never remembered him doing anything like OG or Victor)

 I think the worst thing you can say about a coach's talent evaluating is that he passed on someone that really could have helped- especially when a lot of other coaches saw the talent .  I don't think there's a better example of this than Bruce Weber.  Rob Hummel visited Illinois after their runner-up season in the summer going into his junior year.  Hummel was serious about going to Illinois- his father went there.  And of course the 05 team was damn good.  I think by this point he was rated in the 50's in Rivals- so he wasn't a complete unknown.  But Weber said Hummel was too weak.  Hummel had just turned 16-  he was probably still growing.  

As for Shedrick- the staff must think he's better than his ranking.  I can't imagine that with only 2 true scholarship openings, they'd throw a scholarship at a project who could help in practice.  

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, hoosierdaddy said:

"Better than his ranking" - he's going to end the season top-100 in the 60-100 range for 2019 prospects.  Are we that pompous after Romeo that we are turning down top-100 6'10 fluid players?  Shedrick is ranked higher than Brandon Newman.

When we are recruiting multiple top 30 players at the same or similar positions, yes.

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