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IU to host Central Arkansas on December 19 , 2018 !


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1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Made up for basketball because for years we did just fine with pts per game, rebs per game, assist per game.   I couldn't care less about war or points per possession or any of the new metrics evented by nerds who probably never played the game.

Every single franchise uses those metrics along with a slew of ones we dont even see when evaluating players. 

That being said these are flawed stats for a number of reasons. I would argue all basketball stats are flawed though because they dont report enough data

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They won on luck ,vbg !!  Just kidding !! I just think Jordan {and Pippen ] got too much love !! Wilt Chamberlain AVERAGED 50 POINTS per for an ENTIRE season and OLE Wilt never made a THREE POINT SHOT !! I've followed both College and Pro Basketball for 70 years and I think there have been several players in the NBA who were better OVERALL players than Jordan !!(IMHO)!!

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P.S When the Bulls won the first of those 6 NBA Titles , they had Horace Grant , Bill Cartwright and John Paxson to help Jordan and Pippen !! When they won the second of those 6 NBA Titles it was the second string who rallied the Bulls to victory !! Then in the third  , it was John Paxson who hit the game winning 3-POINTER !! I think Jordan and Pippen had  a lot of unheralded players who were a big part of every one of those NBA Titles !! P,S, When Chamberlain averaged those 50 points per game for an entire season , not only did he Not make any 3-point shots -he was a LOUSY  free throw shooter as well !! It matters not to that Jordan played guard and Chamberlain was a HUGE Center !! I Just think Chamberlain was a BETTER PLAYER , period ! And , imho- there were several NBA players who were better all around players than Jordan or Pippen !!   I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and because of that there will always be fans who sing Jordan's praises ( over players that I think were better than Jordan) !! That's just the way it is !!

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1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

If Thomas had played college ball at Montana State instead of IU, we would not be having this argument.

Nah, I hated Isaiah and the Bad Boy Pistons. I didn’t even realize he played for IU until sometime in the early 90’s when I became an IU fan.  He was the best player and leader on two title teams, and might have been 3 if he hadn’t gotten injured in their first Finals. 

Pippen was a great player too of course, but for my personal historical ranking I’d go with Isaiah. 

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8 hours ago, 5fouls said:

If Thomas had played college ball at Montana State instead of IU, we would not be having this argument.

True, but if Pippen would have landed anywhere else but Chicago we wouldn't be having this discussion either.

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18 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Enlighten me on exactly why you think that Zeke's career outshines Pippen's?  

You really need to be enlightened?

IT led his teams to titles, as one of the undisputed best point guards ever in the NBA (and college). Pippin was second fiddle to Jordan, he won no titles without MJ.

IT was a Finals MVP.

As a point guard he averaged 3 more points per game, on top of obviously dominating in assists per game. Come on, 3 more per game.

12 all star games to P’s 7.

iT is universally considered one of if not the best NBA point guards ever

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13 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Thomas's best VORP season was 5.6 in '84-'85.  Pippen had SIX seasons with a greater VORP than that.

What the hell is vorp and who cares about that stat.  Make a decision for yourself and watch the games.  I am not saying Pippen was not a great player but he never won anything when he was the main guy.

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4 hours ago, IU Scott said:

What the hell is vorp and who cares about that stat.  Make a decision for yourself and watch the games.  I am not saying Pippen was not a great player but he never won anything when he was the main guy.

Value over Replacement Player

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9 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Hoopster.  You readily disagree with me,  just some schmuck with a keyboard.  Yet, you totally ignore ignore the statistical information that has been provided AND the opinion of a Hall of Fame sportswriter that made his name covering the NBA.

Like any good attorney, you're attacking the 'weak' link to make your argument, regardless of how much information exists to support the other position.

 

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1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Hoopster.  You readily disagree with me,  just some schmuck with a keyboard.  Yet, you totally ignore ignore the statistical information that has been provided AND the opinion of a Hall of Fame sportswriter that made his name covering the NBA.

Like any good attorney, you're attacking the 'weak' link to make your argument, regardless of how much information exists to support the other position.

 

Fouls, no offense intended my friend.

you can always find one person with any opinion. You realize I could pull up dozens who have IT among the best or the best point guard ever in the NBA and of course over Pippen, right? 

What weak link? Points and assists and Finals MVP and 12-7 all star games makes me an evil bad attorney attacking a weak link? What? 

Statistics? You think VORP is how you pick one of the greatest players ever? Really?

Come on man. IT was the undisputed leader and key player on his Finals teams, he and his Pistons by the way stopped Jordan when he was trying to break through to the Finals. How can you just ignore that IT is generally regarded as one of if not the best point guards the NBA has ever seen? 

What, exactly, did Pippen win without MJ? 

Pippen in my book is an all time great defensive player. He’s not a top 10 all time player. He’s not the best at his position, he never won without MJ, he’s a key supporting player, never a franchise player. 

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5 minutes ago, rico said:

A spot on the bench when Phil drew up a last play for Toni Kukoc in a play-off game?

If I remember correctly he missed a key game because of a headache as well.  I remember IT playing with a severely sprain ankle against the Lakers in the 1988 finals.  He stayed in the game and scored 25 points in the fourth quarter even though the Lakers ended up winning the finals.

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Pippen was my second favorite Bull after Horace Grant.

Its unfair to penalize him for playing with the GOAT. How would IT have fared if he played in Jordans shadow? He would have more titles but he always would have been MJs sidekick. Likewise, how would Pippen have done with his own team? He may have flourished even more. He was the perfect compliment to MJ and could provide whatever the team needed on a given night- scoring, playmaking, rebounding and, of course, incredible defense. 

I think one overlooked factor in what made those Bulls teams so good was having great defenders in Jordan, Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Cartwright, Ron Harper and others. 

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14 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

What, exactly, did Pippen win without MJ? 

Pippen in my book is an all time great defensive player. He’s not a top 10 all time player. He’s not the best at his position, he never won without MJ, he’s a key supporting player, never a franchise player. 

Come on, he played with MJ the majority of his career. For him to have won a championship on his own you are saying the Bulls would have been capable of 8 straight championships? Or he should have won one at the tail end of his career (on teams that were no where near championship caliber)?

As I said above, put IT with Jordan and penalize him for not winning a championship on his own. 

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37 minutes ago, Reacher said:

 Or he should have won one at the tail end of his career (on teams that were no where near championship caliber)?

The 99-00 Blazers were certainly a championship caliber team. They had a 15 point lead in the 4th quarter of Game 7 of the Western Conference Finals and blew it. 

The bottom line is both guys are all-time, historic, HOF players. Pippen is arguably the greatest superstar sidekick we've ever seen, and Thomas is one of the top 3-4 point guards of all-time. It's splitting hairs when you get to debating guys at this level. So yes, for me the fact that Thomas was the leader/best player on two title teams is what separates him (by a hair). 

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44 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Come on, he played with MJ the majority of his career. For him to have won a championship on his own you are saying the Bulls would have been capable of 8 straight championships? Or he should have won one at the tail end of his career (on teams that were no where near championship caliber)?

As I said above, put IT with Jordan and penalize him for not winning a championship on his own. 

Dead argument. Come on? When he played without MJ he could not win. When he played with MJ he averaged 3 points less per game. No one considers him a top 10 player ever, no one considers him the best at his position, etc. sorry man this argument is dead.

he was your second favorite Bull though - you’re not objective here 

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3 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Dead argument. Come on? When he played without MJ he could not win. When he played with MJ he averaged 3 points less per game. No one considers him a top 10 player ever, no one considers him the best at his position, etc. sorry man this argument is dead.

he was your second favorite Bull though - you’re not objective here 

Hoopster,

Straight yes or no question.

Do you totally dismiss advanced statistical metrics as having no value at all.  Or, do you think in the right context they can tell a valid story?

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22 hours ago, BGleas said:

The 99-00 Blazers were certainly a championship caliber team. They had a 15 point lead in the 4th quarter of Game 7 of the Western Conference Finals and blew it. 

The bottom line is both guys are all-time, historic, HOF players. Pippen is arguably the greatest superstar sidekick we've ever seen, and Thomas is one of the top 3-4 point guards of all-time. It's splitting hairs when you get to debating guys at this level. So yes, for me the fact that Thomas was the leader/best player on two title teams is what separates him (by a hair). 

Oddly enough, Pippen wasn't the go to guy on that Blazer team.  That would have been Rasheed Wallace.  Yep, the Blazers really pissed that one away.

Some would say that Kareem is a Top 10 all-time player........but yet the Lakers were Magic's team.  And the Bucks had Oscar.  He didn't win a championship without either(I think, lol).  I don't know where in the grand scheme of player rankings that Pip falls.  But if I am drafting a team, I pick Isiah Thomas over Scottie Pippen.

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1 hour ago, rico said:

Oddly enough, Pippen wasn't the go to guy on that Blazer team.  That would have been Rasheed Wallace.  Yep, the Blazers really pissed that one away.

Some would say that Kareem is a Top 10 all-time player........but yet the Lakers were Magic's team.  And the Bucks had Oscar.  He didn't win a championship without either(I think, lol).  I don't know where in the grand scheme of player rankings that Pip falls.  But if I am drafting a team, I pick Isiah Thomas over Scottie Pippen.

Could you imagine trying to keep Thomas in front of you in todays NBA?? No hand checking....he would straight up destroy these cats out there. They are both great players but Isiah was the heart and sole of that Pistons team. He set the tone that all the bad boys followed. To me his position made him more valuable than a wing...even a point wing like Pippen played. I don't want to take anything away from Scottie as he was an elite special player...both among the best at what they did. Regardless of if Pippen had his own team or not so on and so forth that's all speculation. We saw Isiah lead his team...and there are very few PGs that I would take over him. It might be a matter of preference but Isiah got robbed of being on the first Dream Team and I won't rob him of this argument lol.

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