rico Posted August 15, 2018 Report Share Posted August 15, 2018 2 hours ago, dgambill said: Could you imagine trying to keep Thomas in front of you in todays NBA?? No hand checking....he would straight up destroy these cats out there. They are both great players but Isiah was the heart and sole of that Pistons team. He set the tone that all the bad boys followed. To me his position made him more valuable than a wing...even a point wing like Pippen played. I don't want to take anything away from Scottie as he was an elite special player...both among the best at what they did. Regardless of if Pippen had his own team or not so on and so forth that's all speculation. We saw Isiah lead his team...and there are very few PGs that I would take over him. It might be a matter of preference but Isiah got robbed of being on the first Dream Team and I won't rob him of this argument lol. One thing to ponder is who would you have on your all-time starting five? Traditional positions. C, PF, SF, SG, PG. Where does Pippen fall into that and where does Isiah? Who is Scottie going up against and who is Zeke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted August 15, 2018 Report Share Posted August 15, 2018 On 8/14/2018 at 9:11 AM, BGleas said: The 99-00 Blazers were certainly a championship caliber team. They had a 15 point lead in the 4th quarter of Game 7 of the Western Conference Finals and blew it. The bottom line is both guys are all-time, historic, HOF players. Pippen is arguably the greatest superstar sidekick we've ever seen, and Thomas is one of the top 3-4 point guards of all-time. It's splitting hairs when you get to debating guys at this level. So yes, for me the fact that Thomas was the leader/best player on two title teams is what separates him (by a hair). Scottie was 34 years old by that time and past his prime. Was hanging around for the $. On 8/14/2018 at 9:12 AM, Hoosierhoopster said: Dead argument. Come on? When he played without MJ he could not win. When he played with MJ he averaged 3 points less per game. No one considers him a top 10 player ever, no one considers him the best at his position, etc. sorry man this argument is dead. he was your second favorite Bull though - you’re not objective here I was right up front with my bias. You may not wish to debate the issue but I'll maintain the Bulls were not prepared to be without MJ. You can fault Scottie all you want for not winning a championship with Pete Myers and his 7-8 ppg at SG but I'm not holding that against him. Nor do I fault him for not having won in the last few years of his career when he had lost his quickness and was past his prime. I never said he was top 10, the best at his position or anything like that. You can argue that with someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted August 15, 2018 Report Share Posted August 15, 2018 11 minutes ago, rico said: One thing to ponder is who would you have on your all-time starting five? Traditional positions. C, PF, SF, SG, PG. Where does Pippen fall into that and where does Isiah? Who is Scottie going up against and who is Zeke? Glad you put in that last line. Here is something from ESPN- http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankalltime/greatest-players-ever They have Isiah as the #5 PG and Scottie as #6 SF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted August 15, 2018 Report Share Posted August 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Reacher said: Glad you put in that last line. Here is something from ESPN- http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankalltime/greatest-players-ever They have Isiah as the #5 PG and Scottie as #6 SF ESPN causes havoc on my puter. Who do they have ranked above Zeke and the same goes for Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted August 15, 2018 Report Share Posted August 15, 2018 34 minutes ago, rico said: ESPN causes havoc on my puter. Who do they have ranked above Zeke and the same goes for Pip. Magic, Oscar, Stockton & Curry above Zeke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted August 15, 2018 Report Share Posted August 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Reacher said: Scottie was 34 years old by that time and past his prime. Was hanging around for the $. I was right up front with my bias. You may not wish to debate the issue but I'll maintain the Bulls were not prepared to be without MJ. You can fault Scottie all you want for not winning a championship with Pete Myers and his 7-8 ppg at SG but I'm not holding that against him. Nor do I fault him for not having won in the last few years of his career when he had lost his quickness and was past his prime. I never said he was top 10, the best at his position or anything like that. You can argue that with someone else. I guess I don't get why you're arguing with me. We were talking about who is the better player, IT or Pippen. I understood you to be arguing Pippen's better. Yes, you're biased. If we' square up and you want to pick Pippen for your team over IT, go for it. I'd take IT over Pippen 10 times out of 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted August 15, 2018 Report Share Posted August 15, 2018 4 hours ago, Reacher said: Glad you put in that last line. Here is something from ESPN- http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankalltime/greatest-players-ever They have Isiah as the #5 PG and Scottie as #6 SF Whoohoo, good for Espn! They're the authority! Good grief, I'm sure you can find the dozens and dozens of actually knowledgeable people/services that rank IT as the best or one of the best point guards ever. Btw, Stockton over IT is absolutely laughable, Magic is a tough call -- he was the proverbial point forward, as an overall player I'd probably take him over IT but not as pure pg/ball handler (IT's handles for what it's worth were worlds better than Magic's, as he'd readily admit) -- clarification, for ranking purposes though, hard to argue that Magic was the best ever. Curry over IT is seriously questionable, but debatable, Oscar, hmm, forgot about him somehow, he was amazing. Then there are guys like Cousy, who gets lost in the shuffle because of time and we're back to trying to weigh modern vs. past era players. If you just pull up rankings by espn, cbs, fox sports or whatever you get ridiculously differing lists, and often flat out ridiculous lists. Here's one that's not so bad, but still lots of room to question the order of some. https://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/the-top-10-greatest-nba-point-guards-of-all-time.html/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted August 15, 2018 Report Share Posted August 15, 2018 35 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: Whoohoo, good for Espn! They're the authority! Good grief, I'm sure you can find the dozens and dozens of actually knowledgeable people/services that rank IT as the best or one of the best point guards ever. Btw, Stockton over IT is absolutely laughable, Magic is a tough call -- he was the proverbial point forward, as an overall player I'd probably take him over IT but not as pure pg/ball handler (IT's handles for what it's worth were worlds better than Magic's, as he'd readily admit) -- clarification, for ranking purposes though, hard to argue that Magic was the best ever. Curry over IT is seriously questionable, but debatable, Oscar, hmm, forgot about him somehow, he was amazing. Then there are guys like Cousy, who gets lost in the shuffle because of time and we're back to trying to weigh modern vs. past era players. If you just pull up rankings by espn, cbs, fox sports or whatever you get ridiculously differing lists, and often flat out ridiculous lists. Here's one that's not so bad, but still lots of room to question the order of some. https://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/the-top-10-greatest-nba-point-guards-of-all-time.html/ That link you posted is pretty good. Magic was fabulous but he was yesteryear's LeBron. I really don't know what position to put either one of them at. But anyway I would put Zeke behind Magic and Oscar. Now I want to see a list on SF's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 2 hours ago, rico said: That link you posted is pretty good. Magic was fabulous but he was yesteryear's LeBron. I really don't know what position to put either one of them at. But anyway I would put Zeke behind Magic and Oscar. Now I want to see a list on SF's. I have to find the one that ranks PG no. 1. 🤭 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 On 8/14/2018 at 1:21 PM, 5fouls said: Hoopster, Straight yes or no question. Do you totally dismiss advanced statistical metrics as having no value at all. Or, do you think in the right context they can tell a valid story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reacher Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 15 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said: I guess I don't get why you're arguing with me. We were talking about who is the better player, IT or Pippen. I understood you to be arguing Pippen's better. Yes, you're biased. If we' square up and you want to pick Pippen for your team over IT, go for it. I'd take IT over Pippen 10 times out of 10. You were talking about who is the better player. I jumped in to say it is unfair to penalize a player because of his teammates. If Isiah played with MJ or Lebron who would have been overshadowed and merely considered a talented complimentary player. You never addressed that issue but assumed I was saying Scottie was better than Isiah- which I never did. As for where I stand in your debate, I'm sort of with you. I would actually prefer Isiah over Scottie to LEAD a team. Pippen had more skills (Isiah was a PG, Scottie could also run the point but do much more), but mental toughness was not his forte. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Reacher said: You were talking about who is the better player. I jumped in to say it is unfair to penalize a player because of his teammates. If Isiah played with MJ or Lebron who would have been overshadowed and merely considered a talented complimentary player. You never addressed that issue but assumed I was saying Scottie was better than Isiah- which I never did. As for where I stand in your debate, I'm sort of with you. I would actually prefer Isiah over Scottie to LEAD a team. Pippen had more skills (Isiah was a PG, Scottie could also run the point but do much more), but mental toughness was not his forte. That last sentence raised my eyebrow. I don't think Pippen had more skills, he just had more size which enabled him to play different positions so to speak. Zeke had an attitude. He was there to win. Pippen never exhibited that "killer instinct". It was like he was just along for the ride. Without MJ he was lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 https://sports.yahoo.com/isiah-thomas-recalls-the-time-karl-malone-gave-him-the--cheapest--foul--in-the-history-of-the-game-205207016.html?y20=1 IT takes this hit yet comes back to play some of the game. When Pippen did not get a play called for him at the end of the game he quit on his team and did not go back in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 Another thing showing IT courageous play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 16 hours ago, 5fouls said: When did you stop beating your wife? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 21 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said: Whoohoo, good for Espn! They're the authority! Good grief, I'm sure you can find the dozens and dozens of actually knowledgeable people/services that rank IT as the best or one of the best point guards ever. Btw, Stockton over IT is absolutely laughable, Magic is a tough call -- he was the proverbial point forward, as an overall player I'd probably take him over IT but not as pure pg/ball handler (IT's handles for what it's worth were worlds better than Magic's, as he'd readily admit) -- clarification, for ranking purposes though, hard to argue that Magic was the best ever. Curry over IT is seriously questionable, but debatable, Oscar, hmm, forgot about him somehow, he was amazing. Then there are guys like Cousy, who gets lost in the shuffle because of time and we're back to trying to weigh modern vs. past era players. If you just pull up rankings by espn, cbs, fox sports or whatever you get ridiculously differing lists, and often flat out ridiculous lists. Here's one that's not so bad, but still lots of room to question the order of some. https://www.cheatsheet.com/sports/the-top-10-greatest-nba-point-guards-of-all-time.html/ Magic and Oscar over IT are no brainers. The IU or Piston bias no matter how strong one cannot put IT in the category with Magic and the Big O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 21 hours ago, rico said: That link you posted is pretty good. Magic was fabulous but he was yesteryear's LeBron. I really don't know what position to put either one of them at. But anyway I would put Zeke behind Magic and Oscar. Now I want to see a list on SF's. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 3 hours ago, IU Scott said: https://sports.yahoo.com/isiah-thomas-recalls-the-time-karl-malone-gave-him-the--cheapest--foul--in-the-history-of-the-game-205207016.html?y20=1 IT takes this hit yet comes back to play some of the game. When Pippen did not get a play called for him at the end of the game he quit on his team and did not go back in the game. That is the NBA I fell in love with. Hard foul 2 shots move on. Players fight to defend their guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 40 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: Magic and Oscar over IT are no brainers. The IU or Piston bias no matter how strong one cannot put IT in the category with Magic and the Big O I couldn't stand the Pistons or really IT after he left so I have no bias for him but I feel like he was a better player than Pippen. I hated Larry Bird and the Celtics but I can still see him and the Celtics as all time greats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 41 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: Magic and Oscar over IT are no brainers. The IU or Piston bias no matter how strong one cannot put IT in the category with Magic and the Big O No problem with that -- Magic is hard to qualify though -- to me he is right there with MJ and LBJ as the GOAT, but he is more like LBJ to me as not really a "point guard," he was the proverbial point forward, but in a class by himself. IT was a pure PG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said: No problem with that -- Magic is hard to qualify though -- to me he is right there with MJ and LBJ as the GOAT, but he is more like LBJ to me as not really a "point guard," he was the proverbial point forward, but in a class by himself. IT was a pure PG. He actually played PG for the Lakers and if you look at the starting lineup you would see he was the PG PG-Magic 2G- Byron Scott SF James Worthy PF- AC Green C- Kareem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: No problem with that -- Magic is hard to qualify though -- to me he is right there with MJ and LBJ as the GOAT, but he is more like LBJ to me as not really a "point guard," he was the proverbial point forward, but in a class by himself. IT was a pure PG. Very true. I misread your original post. Many would disagree with me. If I were starting a team Magic is my #1 pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, IU Scott said: He actually played PG for the Lakers and if you look at the starting lineup you would see he was the PG PG-Magic 2G- Byron Scott SF James Worthy PF- AC Green C- Kareem Loved watching that team play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 12 minutes ago, IU Scott said: I couldn't stand the Pistons or really IT after he left so I have no bias for him but I feel like he was a better player than Pippen. I hated Larry Bird and the Celtics but I can still see him and the Celtics as all time greats. I hated Bird until after I graduated college hated IT as well until I went to college Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 16, 2018 Report Share Posted August 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: Loved watching that team play. I was a huge Magic fan and was the only time my life that I followed a player and a team that was not my favorite team. I was even for MSU in the 79 championship over ISU because of Magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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