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1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

No, Kap is ignoring the sacrifice of all those, white and black, that sacrificed it all so Americans could be free.  

By exercising his first amendment right?  Which those people died to protect?

 

even if that’s the case then why don’t people like you actually work to stop the kneeling instead of complaining. 

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4 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

By exercising his first amendment right?  Which those people died to protect?

 

even if that’s the case then why don’t people like you actually work to stop the kneeling instead of complaining. 

Every day I let my actions speak against racism, hate, violence, and disrespect.  I have instilled those values in my children, which as a parent is my primary role.  Discussing my beliefs on a message board is not 'complaining'.

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Just now, 5fouls said:

Every day I let my actions speak against racism, hate, violence, and disrespect.  I have instilled those values in my children, which as a parent is my primary role.  Discussing my beliefs on a message board is not 'complaining'.

Still aren’t doing anything to stop the behavior you despise so bad. 

62 percent of veterans thought the players had the right btw. 

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5 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people”

Quote from Kap. This protest is very much about the flag. 

The people who are too outraged to support open dialogue about social inequality don’t even know what they are outraged about. Lol 

Last thing I will say because it is not productive for me to continue. Just because he thinks its just about the flag and our country doesn't mean the ceremony held for the national anthem doesn't mean a great deal more to others. He went on to elaborate a great deal about why he was doing this and what it was about. He and many others feel that black people are being oppressed...treated as second class citizens. I don't think America is perfect but it is the best the world has in giving opportunity to everyone. He wants to see a country that oppresses it's people he should look at the country his hero Fidel runs and see what real oppression looks like. Look at the world and look how minorities are treated in other countries. Many out right murder, burn their houses and churches, and give no rights to minorities. While there may be inequities in this country it is one that strives to right wrongs and allows the same rights and opportunities to all. I'm just going to stop. This is just going to go round and round. I support helping the poor, the broken in spirit, those in need. My faith requires me to share the love of God wherever I can. I give time, money, and love to those that I can. But I know that there is room for people to do more...and I know there is real need for the people in the communities themselves to make change as well. I will keep reaching out...I am just afraid that the way Colin is going about his mission will only hurt his cause more than help it and bring attention to the wrong things and alienate more from doing what he is asking them to do. Love has changed this world for the greater than anything I've ever witnessed. To antagonize or incite I don't think will in the end result in the changes he is seeking. Just my opinion.

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Just now, dgambill said:

Last thing I will say because it is not productive for me to continue. Just because he thinks its just about the flag and our country doesn't mean the ceremony held for the national anthem doesn't mean a great deal more to others. He went on to elaborate a great deal about why he was doing this and what it was about. He and many others feel that black people are being oppressed...treated as second class citizens. I don't think America is perfect but it is the best the world has in giving opportunity to everyone. He wants to see a country that oppresses it's people he should look at the country his hero Fidel runs and see what real oppression looks like. Look at the world and look how minorities are treated in other countries. Many out right murder, burn their houses and churches, and give no rights to minorities. While there may be inequities in this country it is one that strives to right wrongs and allows the same rights and opportunities to all. I'm just going to stop. This is just going to go round and round. I support helping the poor, the broken in spirit, those in need. My faith requires me to share the love of God wherever I can. I give time, money, and love to those that I can. But I know that there is room for people to do more...and I know there is real need for the people in the communities themselves to make change as well. I will keep reaching out...I am just afraid that the way Colin is going about his mission will only hurt his cause more than help it and bring attention to the wrong things and alienate more from doing what he is asking them to do. Love has changed this world for the greater than anything I've ever witnessed. To antagonize or incite I don't think will in the end result in the changes he is seeking. Just my opinion.

Basically you have every excuse in the book why being part of the solution isn’t your responsibility. Passing the buck. 

Your faith would have you listen to your neighbor and discuss his problems with him. Instead you are telling him it’s his problem to deal with and complaining about how he called out for help. 

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24 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Basically you have every excuse in the book why being part of the solution isn’t your responsibility. Passing the buck. 

Your faith would have you listen to your neighbor and discuss his problems with him. Instead you are telling him it’s his problem to deal with and complaining about how he called out for help. 

Serious question.  Do you feel Kap's support of Castro is consistent with the message he is trying to get across to Americans?

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1 hour ago, Brass Cannon said:

The police are agents of the government who routinely get away with killing minoroties. 

 

I'm sorry, this is BS. 

FBI studies show that in 2016, 7881 blacks were murdered, 225 of those were killed by  police, and only 16 of those were classified as "Unarmed".  Now, should this open dialog be about the 16, or even the 225, or should we start by talking about the other 7650?  I'm all for open dialog, but I think we should start with the things that move the needle the most,do you agree?

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No one person has the right to define what the flag symbolizes, but at its core it symbolizes America as a whole (soldiers, immigrants, everyday citizens, male, female, all religions, etc.). It can’t just represent the good, but also has to be representative of our country’s shortcomings.   So if you look at it that way, the flag is the perfect thing to protest.

The fact that so many people are reacting futrther validates this was the right approach.  The problem has become a certain person decided to use faux patriotism as a distraction from is own issues and a small contingent of the population bought into it hook line and sinker.  The same contingent that are more than happy to scream bloody murder about their gun rights and the constitution when it is convenient while waving the flag of the confederacy because it is a part of their heritage, but apparently free speech only applies when they agree.

The fact is forced or blind patriotism is far more dangerous and disrespectful to our country than kneeling during a song.  Not to mention Kap kneeling was a respectful compromise after consulting with a service man.

So my question to those that are disagreeing is this.  Protesting violently is not acceptable.  Protesting peacefully is not acceptable.  What is and why do you think you should have the right to decide what is the right way or wrong way?

 

 

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Just now, Muddy River said:

I'm sorry, this is BS. 

FBI studies show that in 2016, 7881 blacks were murdered, 225 of those were killed by  police, and only 16 of those were classified as "Unarmed".  Now, should this open dialog be about the 16, or even the 225, or should we start by talking about the other 7650?  I'm all for open dialog, but I think we should start with the things that move the needle the most,do you agree?

Which is exactly why a dialogue open. You don’t just shout WRONG at somebody and expect the issue is resolved. 

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Just now, Muddy River said:

I'm sorry, this is BS. 

FBI studies show that in 2016, 7881 blacks were murdered, 225 of those were killed by  police, and only 16 of those were classified as "Unarmed".  Now, should this open dialog be about the 16, or even the 225, or should we start by talking about the other 7650?  I'm all for open dialog, but I think we should start with the things that move the needle the most,do you agree?

Not every incident of oppression results in murder.  It could be putting a kid in jail for weed ultimately preventing him from having access to a decent job because of it.  It could be a white kid who swims at Stanford caught raping a girl getting no jail time beyond time served while a black football player gets years in jail for consensual you dating a girl who is underage, but only two years younger that the black football player only because the father does not want his daughter with a black guy. Or the black guy who is hassled for jaywalking (something everyone does) only to lead to him being arrested and beaten for questioning why the cop is writing him a ticket versus just giving a him a polite warning.

How about the kid in Indianapolis who had an off duty cop moonlighting at an apartment complex pool ask kick him out of the apartment complex after he showed he lived there because he got defensive and asked why the other white people at the pool weren’t being asked to prove they lived there.

There is so much more here than just those unjustly executed by police officers. There are people of color everyday being harassed by racist individuals strictly because they are uncomfortable in the presence of the due to their own fear a biases.

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7 minutes ago, IUALUM03 said:

No one person has the right to define what the flag symbolizes, but at its core it symbolizes America as a whole (soldiers, immigrants, everyday citizens, male, female, all religions, etc.). It can’t just represent the good, but also has to be representative of our country’s shortcomings.   So if you look at it that way, the flag is the perfect thing to protest.

The fact that so many people are reacting futrther validates this was the right approach.  The problem has become a certain person decided to use faux patriotism as a distraction from is own issues and a small contingent of the population bought into it hook line and sinker.  The same contingent that are more than happy to scream bloody murder about their gun rights and the constitution when it is convenient while waving the flag of the confederacy because it is a part of their heritage, but apparently free speech only applies when they agree.

The fact is forced or blind patriotism is far more dangerous and disrespectful to our country than kneeling during a song.  Not to mention Kap kneeling was a respectful compromise after consulting with a service man.

So my question to those that are disagreeing is this.  Protesting violently is not acceptable.  Protesting peacefully is not acceptable.  What is and why do you think you should have the right to decide what is the right way or wrong way?

 

 

From this , I gather that you support the Westboro Baptist Church's right to protest at the funerals at fallen soldiers, and I assume that you have written your representatives if you live in one of the places that has passed legislation preventing such things.

There is a time and place for everything, and co-opting something set aside to honor something or someone else, to push your own agenda is at the very least disrespectful.

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5 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Ignoring this one?  Or is the point impossible to argue against.

It’s a straw man’s argument and has no bearing on the core topic.  Who knows what the motivation is.  It is like saying by wearing a pair of Kobe Bryant’s shoes, you can’t be against sexual assault. The world is a complex place and no one can be 100% consistent in their idealism.

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12 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Which is exactly why a dialogue open. You don’t just shout WRONG at somebody and expect the issue is resolved. 

The "BS" was in reply to the "Routinely" which was why I highlighted the word in your quote.  But, hey, good job deflecting the point of my post completely.

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4 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

I didn’t deflect your not understanding the key issue so i emphasized it again. You still didn’t understand sadly. 

So is simply telling someone they don't understand the issue fundamentally any different that telling them they are wrong?  Have you advanced this dialog?  You are correct, I am not following you well.

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1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Serious question.  Do you feel Kap's support of Castro is consistent with the message he is trying to get across to Americans?

Define support?  He wore a T-shirt And then being misinformed on one microcosm of Cuba’s society.  I wore a T-shirt with the joker on it does that mean I support him. 

But really this is just yet another pathetic straw man argument to justify not having a conversation about social inequality. 

The lengths that some people will rationalize not having a conversation about social inequality  grasping at every little straw to justify it is quite disturbing  

 

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4 minutes ago, Muddy River said:

From this , I gather that you support the Westboro Baptist Church's right to protest at the funerals at fallen soldiers, and I assume that you have written your representatives if you live in one of the places that has passed legislation preventing such things.

There is a time and place for everything, and co-opting something set aside to honor something or someone else, to push your own agenda is at the very least disrespectful.

You are right, there is a time/place, but most of those times/places have been tried, yet here we are still seeing the same issues. I don’t think anyone would compare BLM or any groups on the right side of social justice is the same as westboro, so it is not even a reasonable comparison.

In the end, him kneeling affects you none.  This cannot be argued.  If this goes away, your life will continue down trajectory it was on, so in my mind this makes it a reasonable protest.

You make no mention that of Kap consulting a serviceman in coming up with the taking the knee as a way to still be respectful.  Also, you ignore my question at the end. What is the right protest in a forum that will draw the necessary attention.

 

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2 minutes ago, Muddy River said:

So is simply telling someone they don't understand the issue fundamentally any different that telling them they are wrong?  Have you advanced this dialog?  You are correct, I am not following you well.

Telling somebody that they are wrong and they should stop kneeling isn’t a dialogue at all. It’s a declaration. 

Not particularly had a lot of family health issues. But I’m also not complaining about the kneeling. 

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1 minute ago, IUALUM03 said:

You are right, there is a time/place, but most of those times/places have been tried, yet here we are still seeing the same issues. I don’t think anyone would compare BLM or any groups on the right side of social justice is the same as westboro, so it is not even a reasonable comparison.

In the end, him kneeling affects you none.  This cannot be argued.  If this goes away, your life will continue down trajectory it was on, so in my mind this makes it a reasonable protest.

You make no mention that of Kap consulting a serviceman in coming up with the taking the knee as a way to still be respectful.  Also, you ignore my question at the end. What is the right protest in a forum that will draw the necessary attention.

 

So the First amendment only protects those on the "Right Side of social justice"?  I was taught it was to protect unpopular speech/ideas.  Both groups want to protest at what many believe are inappropriate times.  I think that is a reasonable comparison.

I also know service men who have no issue with the kneeling, and I know others that have a big issue with it. Certainly you would agree that because he spoke to "a serviceman" that person didn't speak for all, and that we shouldn't just dismiss those servicemen and women  who hold the opposing view.  Their sacrifice was just as great.

I believe the right way to protest is to start with positive change.  People by nature want to be on winning teams,  We are bandwaggon jumpers.  Start something good and people  will join you,  I don't see how being shocking and offensive to those you want  to join your cause is helpful.  But, hey, I'm old and set in my ways, so what do I know?

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17 minutes ago, Brass Cannon said:

Telling somebody that they are wrong and they should stop kneeling isn’t a dialogue at all. It’s a declaration. 

Not particularly had a lot of family health issues. But I’m also not complaining about the kneeling. 

I haven't told anyone to stop kneeling, I've simply stated my opposition to it.  I recognize he is free to kneel, the same as I'm free not to watch, or buy NIKE.  His actions won't have any other impact on me, just as mine won't on the NFL or NIKE.

As for your second sentence, I didn't understand.  I'm not being flippant, I really didn't understand.  Did I miss something?

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I try to avoid these politically charged topics like the plague,  and to my memory, I've offered zero input on this kneeling "controversy," but I feel the duty to weigh in on this one, as this isn't politics; it's just basic humanity and our ignorance of it as a nation.

Just like Springsteen's protagonist in "Born in the USA," simply being born in this country is not a ticket to opportunity for all.  To many (re: millions) Americans, it means being born into an informal two-tier system built upon 240+ years of slavery, segregation, oppression, and disenfranchisement, which, to my astonishment, as a nation we largely are just pretending didn't happen when it comes to the kneeling protests. 

Sure, make the argument that individuals can pull themselves out of such socioeconomic status, but it's disingenuous to think everyone is capable of that, and it patently ignores the fact that it cannot work on a societal level.  It also completely ignores the ignominious and unacknowledged tradition of institutional racism on which our society is built and against which anyone born into such a life has to battle in order to "make it out." 

The whole "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" ideal is much harder for minorities to pull off in this country, and, really, is a false hope sold to the masses as it is.  There are individuals who can achieve the "American Dream," but statistically people tend not to be able to pull themselves out of their economic "class" without substantial assistance by someone from a higher class.

I also get disheartened by this, "but they live in the best country with the most freedom; they could be living in a communist dystopia!" argument.  For one, sure they could, but it has nothing to do with the long sordid history of disenfranchisement of black people in this country.  And two, we are hardly the best country in nearly any category that can be measured, and we certainly don't have the most freedom in the world, so that argument is totally baseless.  It may not be incorrect to say that there are a lot of countries where minorities are treated worse than the US, but it still doesn't make maintaining our status quo okay or morally acceptable.

And, in lieu of having this conversation, acknowledging the racial inequality on a societal level, and doing something about it, we instead shift the blame and demonize those who are simply asking for fair and equal treatment of the communities from which they come. 

It's not even about overt racism anymore, though there is still plenty of that to go around; it's about the unfortunate human instinct to externalize problems and find someone else to blame instead of admitting that it's in large part our fault as a nation that minorities suffer the economic plight they do, and as a result, the high level of criminality that is rampant in their communities.  This, in turn, feeds the narrative of criminality as a "trait" of these communities, and ultimately feeds the arguments being made in this thread.

Until we are able to look at ourselves in the mirror as a nation and admit that we have created these problems and need to work together to solve them, we will continue to maintain this status quo, and it is maddening to me that the powers that be have perverted the message of this protest into a question of patriotism in order to avoid admitting that we actually have a problem in this country.  It's even more maddening that those same people have the power to end the very thing that causes their grievance by just TALKING ABOUT IT, yet choose to simply continue complaining about it because it's politically expedient and riles up their base.

Make no mistake, this problem is extremely complex and will literally take generations to address and fix, but here we are casting aspersions on people for having the audacity to simply ask to have a CONVERSATION about the injustice that has been inherent in our society since it was founded.  And until we stop blaming the victim and ignoring the real issues on a societal level in favor of convenient tangential controversies that overshadow the real problems, we will simply perpetuate that system of injustice, whether it's our intention or not.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, IUALUM03 said:

It’s a straw man’s argument and has no bearing on the core topic.  Who knows what the motivation is.  It is like saying by wearing a pair of Kobe Bryant’s shoes, you can’t be against sexual assault. The world is a complex place and no one can be 100% consistent in their idealism.

Simply wearing Kobe socks is not the same thing.  Wearing Kobe socks while publicly speaking out about sexual assault is a different thing, and would be hypocritical.  And, that is basically what Kaepernick did when he wore a Castro shirt..  

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