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50 minutes ago, Muddy River said:

So the First amendment only protects those on the "Right Side of social justice"?  I was taught it was to protect unpopular speech/ideas.  Both groups want to protest at what many believe are inappropriate times.  I think that is a reasonable comparison.

I also know service men who have no issue with the kneeling, and I know others that have a big issue with it. Certainly you would agree that because he spoke to "a serviceman" that person didn't speak for all, and that we shouldn't just dismiss those servicemen and women  who hold the opposing view.  Their sacrifice was just as great.

I believe the right way to protest is to start with positive change.  People by nature want to be on winning teams,  We are bandwaggon jumpers.  Start something good and people  will join you,  I don't see how being shocking and offensive to those you want  to join your cause is helpful.  But, hey, I'm old and set in my ways, so what do I know?

You are correct, it does protect both sides, but comparing what Kap and other players are doing is in no way comparable to westboro. 

Regarding the service man, you are correct, he doesn’t speak for all, but it shows that Kap didn’t go into the protest with the idea of disrespecting servicemen and his intent was related to social injustice being brought upon persons of color.  

Once again, those who serve in the military are not the only ones represented by the flag.  I fully support our troops and the sacrifices they made, but the flag is a symbol for all Americans to reflect upon it what the choose.  If some aren’t bring represented the sane way as others, then it is fully logical to use that symbol in a form of protest.

Once again, I fully believe this protest to be appropriate because it has created a dialogue without negatively affecting you or anyone else in the population.  What westboro is the complete opposite of how this protest is being presented and this is without hate or negative affect to those around.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, rogue3542 said:

 it's about the unfortunate human instinct to externalize problems and find someone else to blame instead of admitting that it's in large part our fault as a nation that minorities suffer the economic plight they do

Until we are able to look at ourselves in the mirror as a nation and admit that we have created these problems and need to work together to solve them, we will continue to maintain this status quo,

This was simply too long to quote the entire thing, but in the first quoted point, you say it's human nature to blame others as apposed to accepting responsibility.  I agree, but I see plenty of that on both sides.  ALL parties would need to accept some responsibility before a dialog could ever take place.  I'm not optimistic that either side would.

What is your vision of the status quo?  In my lifetime there have been immeasurable advancements in opportunities for minorities.  We recently had a black President, and a black Attorney General.  We've had a black woman Secretary of the State.  Has there ever been more black CEO's than there are right now?  Perhaps things aren't moving as quickly as we would like, but things today are better than they were 20 years ago, when they were better than they were the previous 20 years, which was still better than the 20 years before that.  I hane no reason to think they won't be better 20 years from now.  There has never been a time in the history of this country where minorities had more opportunity than they do now.  We can still improve, but we shouldn't dismiss how far we've come.  We're getting better, and if improvement is the status quo, then let's not dismiss that.

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5 minutes ago, Muddy River said:

This was simply too long to quote the entire thing, but in the first quoted point, you say it's human nature to blame others as apposed to accepting responsibility.  I agree, but I see plenty of that on both sides.  ALL parties would need to accept some responsibility before a dialog could ever take place.  I'm not optimistic that either side would.

What is your vision of the status quo?  In my lifetime there have been immeasurable advancements in opportunities for minorities.  We recently had a black President, and a black Attorney General.  We've had a black woman Secretary of the State.  Has there ever been more black CEO's than there are right now?  Perhaps things aren't moving as quickly as we would like, but things today are better than they were 20 years ago, when they were better than they were the previous 20 years, which was still better than the 20 years before that.  I hane no reason to think they won't be better 20 years from now.  There has never been a time in the history of this country where minorities had more opportunity than they do now.  We can still improve, but we shouldn't dismiss how far we've come.  We're getting better, and if improvement is the status quo, then let's not dismiss that.

My usage of the "status quo" was to invoke the idea that we refuse to accept that we have an institutional racism problem rather than to suggest we haven't made any progress, which we obviously have, but we're nowhere close to remotely talking about that.

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10 minutes ago, Muddy River said:

This was simply too long to quote the entire thing, but in the first quoted point, you say it's human nature to blame others as apposed to accepting responsibility.  I agree, but I see plenty of that on both sides.  ALL parties would need to accept some responsibility before a dialog could ever take place.  I'm not optimistic that either side would.

What is your vision of the status quo?  In my lifetime there have been immeasurable advancements in opportunities for minorities.  We recently had a black President, and a black Attorney General.  We've had a black woman Secretary of the State.  Has there ever been more black CEO's than there are right now?  Perhaps things aren't moving as quickly as we would like, but things today are better than they were 20 years ago, when they were better than they were the previous 20 years, which was still better than the 20 years before that.  I hane no reason to think they won't be better 20 years from now.  There has never been a time in the history of this country where minorities had more opportunity than they do now.  We can still improve, but we shouldn't dismiss how far we've come.  We're getting better, and if improvement is the status quo, then let's not dismiss that.

Think about the level of intelligence it took and someone who could deal with working with the lowest margins of error to be elected as the first black president, now look at the level of accountability white counterparts are given.  Cough cough, look at two people that bookend Obama and how those supporters of said bookends think obama is the antichrist and bush/trump great leaders.  Obama’s has to be perfect, while bush could get arrested and trump can con common people out of their hard earned money, declare bankruptcy, and lie at every turn.  If that isn’t white privileged and a full illustration of the inherent disadvantage persons of color desk with, I don’t know what is.  

(Full disclosure, I vote for both parties in elections, but it doesn’t take a reasonable person to see this.)

Since this is a sports forum, let’s talk racial inequality in sports.  Don’t you think it is odd that a sports landscape dominated by minorities it is difficult to still find POC in coaching positions, GM roles, and even ownership?  It’s seeks to me ex players would make the best candidates for these roles.

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11 minutes ago, IUALUM03 said:

You are correct, it does protect both sides, but comparing what Kap and other players are doing is in no way comparable to westboro. 

Regarding the service man, you are correct, he doesn’t speak for all, but it shows that Kap didn’t go into the protest with the idea of disrespecting servicemen and his intent was related to social injustice being brought upon persons of color.  

Once again, those who serve in the military are not the only ones represented by the flag.  I fully support our troops and the sacrifices they made, but the flag is a symbol for all Americans to reflect upon it what the choose.  If some aren’t bring represented the sane way as others, then it is fully logical to use that symbol in a form of protest.

Once again, I fully believe this protest to be appropriate because it has created a dialogue without negatively affecting you or anyone else in the population.  What westboro is the complete opposite of how this protest is being presented and this is without hate or negative affect to those around.

 

 

To be clear, I'm not comparing Kap's message with that of WBC,  I am comparing two groups who each think they are right, and who have the right to be heard, co-opting a moment set aside to honor someone or something else, to spread their message.  To me, both are being disrespectful.  I will also add that I find it disrespectful whether I agree with the message or not.  Some things and times are sacred.  And Kap's actions have had negative effects on other's or we wouldn't be having this conversation.  He upset plenty of people.

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I’m going to bow out of the topic now.  I always hate those that sound like they are talking in circles and feel the need to make the same point over and over.

I appreciate everyone’s engagement and respect those with opinions counter to mine.  This is exactly the kind of dialogue the protest was hoping to initiate in my opinion. Have a good night and try to treat everyone with some kindness and speak up when you see someone being treated unfairly.  The world needs more of that.

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2 minutes ago, IUALUM03 said:

Think about the level of intelligence it took and someone who could deal with working with the lowest margins of error to be elected as the first black president, now look at the level of accountability white counterparts are given.  Cough cough, look at two people that bookend Obama and how those supporters of said bookends think obama is the antichrist and bush/trump great leaders.  Obama’s has to be perfect, while bush could get arrested and trump can con common people out of their hard earned money, declare bankruptcy, and lie at every turn.  If that isn’t white privileged and a full illustration of the inherent disadvantage persons of color desk with, I don’t know what is.  

Full disclosure, I vote for both parties in elections, but it doesn’t take a reasonable person to see this.

Trying to avoid politics here, but both sides of the political spectrum are guilty of an enormous level of hypocrisy.  If Obama went on TV tomorrow and said we should 'build a wall', then Obama supporters would step up and say that it was the greatest idea ever.  Meanwhile, if Trump woke up tomorrow and decided Hilary Clinton would make a great Secretary of Defense, then all of the Trump supporters would praise him for his vision and claim they never thought Hilary was that bad.  

That type of thinking (or lack thereof) is a huge problem with our society today.

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6 hours ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

Guess the Kap Effect only lasted one day...:coffee:

 

Looks like you agree NKE sold off initially  and then recovered? I heard a pretty convincing argument that this will benefit Nike in the long run. Makes a boring company edgy and appeals to their core audience. What sales they lose to old white men they will gain from their base. The selloff represented a great buying opportunity if thats the case.

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6 minutes ago, IUALUM03 said:

Think about the level of intelligence it took and someone who could deal with working with the lowest margins of error to be elected as the first black president, now look at the level of accountability white counterparts are given.  Cough cough, look at two people that bookend Obama and how those supporters of said bookends think obama is the antichrist and bush/trump great leaders.  Obama’s has to be perfect, while bush could get arrested and trump can con common people out of their hard earned money, declare bankruptcy, and lie at every turn.  If that isn’t white privileged and a full illustration of the inherent disadvantage persons of color desk with, I don’t know what is.  

(Full disclosure, I vote for both parties in elections, but it doesn’t take a reasonable person to see this.)

Since this is a sports forum, let’s talk racial inequality in sports.  Don’t you think it is odd that a sports landscape dominated by minorities it is difficult to still find POC in coaching positions, GM roles, and even ownership?  It’s seeks to me ex players would make the best candidates for these roles.

I'm not saying "Mission Accomplished" (pun intended).  I'm saying we are getting better.  I can't speak to your sports analogy, but in the business world I come from, a great worker will not necessarily make a great manager.  I've had great workers who I promoted only to find that while they were incredibly skilled at what they did, that did not make them a great leader.  I can only assume the same is true in the sports world.  Ted Williams was a great player, but not so much as a manager.  Tony Dungy was a great Head Coach and leader, but a pretty average player.  Different skill set is the best I can come up with.

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52 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Looks like you agree NKE sold off initially  and then recovered? I heard a pretty convincing argument that this will benefit Nike in the long run. Makes a boring company edgy and appeals to their core audience. What sales they lose to old white men they will gain from their base. The selloff represented a great buying opportunity if thats the case.

You made the point that the Kap campaign hurt them. All shoe companies tanked yesterday. Only one rebounded today. So did the Kap campaign hurt Nike?

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5 hours ago, Brass Cannon said:

Basically you have every excuse in the book why being part of the solution isn’t your responsibility. Passing the buck. 

Your faith would have you listen to your neighbor and discuss his problems with him. Instead you are telling him it’s his problem to deal with and complaining about how he called out for help. 

Up until this point you’ve been respectful of our difference of opinions but you speak out of ignorance. I have spent many years reaching out to kids in impoverished communities. Fed the poor, volunteered at community kitchens, donated to food pantries, women’s and men’s shelters, given rides to and from work to a young lady that just needed a chance to get out of a bad environment and hired several people that needed a second chance. Those I’ve helped have been black, Brown, white but mostly poor from some of the worst situations imaginable. I walk my faith sir...I don’t just talk it...like I said it takes action and simple dialog while it may sound great is empty without deeds. I respect those that put their money where their mouth is and hands and feet to efforts instead of grand standing. I’ve seen where Colin has donated over a million dollars. I think actions like that speaks to people entirely more than his kneeling. I commend him for that. A player like Chris Long that donated his entire last year salary gets my attention more than a player that takes actions that divide people. A lot of people have issues with a person that insinuates cops are pigs and Fidel is someone to be celebrated while protesting a country many people are proud of and during a moment where most show respect for those that have made it the greatest place to live in the world. Your message can and often is destroyed by the avenue and tone that you deliver it. I believe we all have a roll in making this country better. But I won’t back down from my belief that the most important and critical action that has to take place before change can be accomplished must begin with the ones that can make the biggest differences in their own communities. Changes in their hearts and family units and respect for themselves and their community will reap far greater benefits then anything the govt will do. There are thousands and millions out there like myself willing to help and been taking action but realize we can’t do it without them first making changes themselves. So I cringe when I see the way he is trying to go about enacting change. I feel it does more harm then good. Not all dialogue is good nor productive. There is a way to win the hearts and minds of others. I appreciate your message...I just hope you would consider that there can be people on the opposite side of this debate that support making changes and have put action to words that are upset with how he is going about it and may not support the way he went about things.

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7 hours ago, dgambill said:

Up until this point you’ve been respectful of our difference of opinions but you speak out of ignorance. I have spent many years reaching out to kids in impoverished communities. Fed the poor, volunteered at community kitchens, donated to food pantries, women’s and men’s shelters, given rides to and from work to a young lady that just needed a chance to get out of a bad environment and hired several people that needed a second chance. Those I’ve helped have been black, Brown, white but mostly poor from some of the worst situations imaginable. I walk my faith sir...I don’t just talk it...like I said it takes action and simple dialog while it may sound great is empty without deeds. I respect those that put their money where their mouth is and hands and feet to efforts instead of grand standing. I’ve seen where Colin has donated over a million dollars. I think actions like that speaks to people entirely more than his kneeling. I commend him for that. A player like Chris Long that donated his entire last year salary gets my attention more than a player that takes actions that divide people. A lot of people have issues with a person that insinuates cops are pigs and Fidel is someone to be celebrated while protesting a country many people are proud of and during a moment where most show respect for those that have made it the greatest place to live in the world. Your message can and often is destroyed by the avenue and tone that you deliver it. I believe we all have a roll in making this country better. But I won’t back down from my belief that the most important and critical action that has to take place before change can be accomplished must begin with the ones that can make the biggest differences in their own communities. Changes in their hearts and family units and respect for themselves and their community will reap far greater benefits then anything the govt will do. There are thousands and millions out there like myself willing to help and been taking action but realize we can’t do it without them first making changes themselves. So I cringe when I see the way he is trying to go about enacting change. I feel it does more harm then good. Not all dialogue is good nor productive. There is a way to win the hearts and minds of others. I appreciate your message...I just hope you would consider that there can be people on the opposite side of this debate that support making changes and have put action to words that are upset with how he is going about it and may not support the way he went about things.

First, let me commend you on your work.  During my time as a teacher, I was also part of a program that sought to provide aid to those students at risk, and often it was a case of trying to help those who would not help themselves, but simply diagnosing this as the only issue disregards the larger societal problems we have.  

I think the larger point is that, while you're correct that change must ultimately come from within, it's not going to happen for these communities as a whole until we work together (re: people on both sides of this issue) to eliminate societal hurdles that work against that change, one of them being unjust and unfair policing, which protesters also need to realize is a much more complex and nuanced problem than just "police are unfair to black people."

I'm not defending Kaepernick by the way; there are many things that he could have done differently and more positively, but his message is one we need to hear.

The other point I was trying to make without writing a proverbial book (my posts always get so long, and it's hard for me to practice brevity without removing meaning and content), was that people have the right to be offended by the kneeling, but they also have the obligation as fellow human beings who temporarily share this planet to hear the message, and say, "I disagree with your avenue, but I hear your grievance.  Let's talk about your grievance and end the protest."  That's literally all that has to be done; recognize the grievance, but instead we are co-opting it and framing it as a question of patriotism, and honestly at this point, nationalism.  I just wish we could at least all respect each other, which starts with one side needing to come to the realization that this kneeling has no INTENT of causing disrespect.

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50 minutes ago, rico said:

My original premise for starting this thread was I was curious as to how this could/might affect "Nike" schools.

Maybe you should start another thread for that, lol!

 

10 hours ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

You made the point that the Kap campaign hurt them. All shoe companies tanked yesterday. Only one rebounded today. So did the Kap campaign hurt Nike?

I said NKE dropped by $3 Billion (looks like it was more than that). It is undeniable the stock dropped. Many news articles attributed it to Kap. Did that prompt the selloff in the other shoe companies? What else would have caused such a large drop for shoe companies? The rebound can be attributed to the initial selloff being overblown. Its quite common to " sell on the news" and let the dust settle. I never said it would have a long lasting effect and my last post talked about how they may benefit in the long run. If that's the case, that would support other shoe companies not rebounding as quick. 

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1 hour ago, rico said:

My original premise for starting this thread was I was curious as to how this could/might affect "Nike" schools.

To answer your question.  It won't.  Many of the kids that play for basketball and football programs are persons of color, so it isn't illogical to think that this will strengthen their affinity for Nike.  Relating to the general population, this will only help in the long haul and is a well-thought out business decision outside of them taking a social stance.  A majority of the US population, especially the youth fall on the Nike side with this and other social issues. 

In addition, the youth are flocking to brands with some sort of societal viewpoint, such as Patagonia for example.

 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, IUALUM03 said:

To answer your question.  It won't.  Many of the kids that play for basketball and football programs are persons of color, so it isn't illogical to think that this will strengthen their affinity for Nike.  Relating to the general population, this will only help in the long haul and is a well-thought out business decision outside of them taking a social stance.  A majority of the US population, especially the youth fall on the Nike side with this and other social issues. 

In addition, the youth are flocking to brands with some sort of societal viewpoint, such as Patagonia for example.

 

 

 

 

Sounds pretty definite on your part.  I will reserve judgement and see how it unfolds.

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1 hour ago, IUALUM03 said:

To answer your question.  It won't.  Many of the kids that play for basketball and football programs are persons of color, so it isn't illogical to think that this will strengthen their affinity for Nike.  Relating to the general population, this will only help in the long haul and is a well-thought out business decision outside of them taking a social stance.  A majority of the US population, especially the youth fall on the Nike side with this and other social issues. 

In addition, the youth are flocking to brands with some sort of societal viewpoint, such as Patagonia for example.

 

 

 

 

Agreed I don't think this effects Nike long term. Sure they have alienated an demographic...but in the end even if they don't buy the shoes their kids will still harass them until they buy them for them. Most boycotts blow over. There are a small core that will permanently change their habits but I don't think it will make much of a difference. Boycotts by advertisers tend to have a much bigger significance then a company that has so many avenues and channels to draw profits. The thing I don't like and would hope would change more is instead of Nike using this as a PR stunt (I have to feel like that is what it is) they could possibly invest in the message they were promoting. Perhaps instead of sending all the jobs oversees they could invest in making more of their products right here at home...and maybe bring jobs to those in some of these area where young men feel hopeless and have no outlook for jobs and a better life.  It's not like it would cause the prices to get much higher than they already are for a pair of Jordan's or whatever. My niece just spent $180 on a pair of Nikes....just insane lol. Running an AD slogan brings attention....but when there are iconic companies that have the resources and ability to do more but instead just pay lip service to an issue to me that is using a cause to sell shoes....maybe business savy but I'm not going to applaud their stance. Writing a check for these companies for a tax write-off is a band aid...but if they were to invest in jobs that can be one piece of action that can go a long way to changing these communities. I imagine by next month we won't hear another word about this.

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9 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Agreed I don't think this effects Nike long term. Sure they have alienated an demographic...but in the end even if they don't buy the shoes their kids will still harass them until they buy them for them. Most boycotts blow over. There are a small core that will permanently change their habits but I don't think it will make much of a difference. Boycotts by advertisers tend to have a much bigger significance then a company that has so many avenues and channels to draw profits. The thing I don't like and would hope would change more is instead of Nike using this as a PR stunt (I have to feel like that is what it is) they could possibly invest in the message they were promoting. Perhaps instead of sending all the jobs oversees they could invest in making more of their products right here at home...and maybe bring jobs to those in some of these area where young men feel hopeless and have no outlook for jobs and a better life.  It's not like it would cause the prices to get much higher than they already are for a pair of Jordan's or whatever. My niece just spent $180 on a pair of Nikes....just insane lol. Running an AD slogan brings attention....but when there are iconic companies that have the resources and ability to do more but instead just pay lip service to an issue to me that is using a cause to sell shoes....maybe business savy but I'm not going to applaud their stance. Writing a check for these companies for a tax write-off is a band aid...but if they were to invest in jobs that can be one piece of action that can go a long way to changing these communities. I imagine by next month we won't hear another word about this.

I love your idea of Nike letting impoverished Americans make their shoes.

The fallout has started-

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2794414-college-of-the-ozarks-to-drop-nike-from-uniforms-after-colin-kaepernick-campaign

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4 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Sisters of the Poor College and Mom and Pop Shop Sporting Goods store are meaningless drops in the bucket. 

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