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12 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I agree Gleas, we see the positions pretty much the same. I’m not sure about either Smith or McBob though. McBob doesn’t shoot or even threaten to shoot enough to play offensively as either a 2/guard or 3/wing though of course you have 2 guards like a Roberson who doesn’t shoot but majorly impacts the game. We’ve only seen Smith as a frosh and he played a role on last season’s team. I see him more in that gray area. You could say he’s a tweener but he could develop into either a stretch 4 or a wing imo, plenty of time and he started showing such promise last season. 

Roberson is a good example for McRoberts in terms of this discussion. You don't have to be a shooter to be a wing. McRoberts doesn't handle well enough and doesn't initiate offense, so he's not a guard, and he's certainly not a big, he plays on the perimeter/wing, etc. He's a wing. 

As far as Smith, I think we're agreeing, except that I consider a stretch 4 still categorized a big, even though they're often on the perimeter. They're typically the screener in ball screens, etc., not the one initiating. I'm sure he's worked on his perimeter game/handles over the summer, but my personal preference is just to go off what I've seen, as opposed to what a player wants/may be trying to be. Hopefully he's rounded those skills out and can play more of a wing spot, it would only help him and the team. 

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2 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

He did that last year on over 1 3P attempt per game. It isnt a big sample size but it isnt exactly a small one either. 

Well if he's most improved and can do it under pressure, that makes him way more valuable than what he pulled off last year.  

I'm also going to drop that I'm pretty excited about Race T.  

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37 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Well if he's most improved and can do it under pressure, that makes him way more valuable than what he pulled off last year.  

I'm also going to drop that I'm pretty excited about Race T.  

If McBob averages 2-5 from 3 per game, I'd be on board with him starting the entire season.  I'm just concerned that he won't provide enough offense to keep the defense honest.

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38 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Well if he's most improved and can do it under pressure, that makes him way more valuable than what he pulled off last year.  

I'm also going to drop that I'm pretty excited about Race T.  

Sure. McRoberts showed he can shoot last year anyway and is obviously a big plus defensively and on the boards. We just need him to take 2-3 threes per game instead of a little over 1 per. If he can hit at the same clip.

I know we aren't all NBA fans, but I think you'd have a hard time convincing a Thunder fan that a healthy Anthony Roberson doesn't make them a top 3 or 4 team in the league and he has similar offensive limitations to McRoberts. 

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5 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

If McBob averages 2-5 from 3 per game, I'd be on board with him starting the entire season.  I'm just concerned that he won't provide enough offense to keep the defense honest.

This is honestly just an absolutely insane post. If he can shoot 40% from three with more attempts (by 25%) than Jordan Hulls had his senior year he can start? He's an All-League caliber defender, Jordan Hulls was trash on defense and you want him to be that level of shooter to start games. 

If he takes over 2 3Pfg per game an shoots in the 30s he should start unless a guy like Hunter just blows up. He is a perfect compliment to Romeo on the wing; he doesn't take away offensive touches from him and can guard the other teams best perimeter player. Hunter takes away Romeo touches and probably makes Romeo guard the best player. 

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1 minute ago, KoB2011 said:

This is honestly just an absolutely insane post. If he can shoot 40% from three with more attempts (by 25%) than Jordan Hulls had his senior year he can start? He's an All-League caliber defender, Jordan Hulls was trash on defense and you want him to be that level of shooter to start games. 

I think he meant 2 to 5 points from 3.

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59 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

This is honestly just an absolutely insane post. If he can shoot 40% from three with more attempts (by 25%) than Jordan Hulls had his senior year he can start? He's an All-League caliber defender, Jordan Hulls was trash on defense and you want him to be that level of shooter to start games. 

If he takes over 2 3Pfg per game an shoots in the 30s he should start unless a guy like Hunter just blows up. He is a perfect compliment to Romeo on the wing; he doesn't take away offensive touches from him and can guard the other teams best perimeter player. Hunter takes away Romeo touches and probably makes Romeo guard the best player. 

Math must be tough for you, huh?  I'm asking for a 6 point average here from a starter and you attack a post as insane?!!  Hulls was also a ball handler and distributor (who had Watford, Oladipo and Zeller to carry the scoring load) while averaging as a senior 2.2-5 (44.7%) from three and just under 10 points a game (better check your stats again).  Hulls never averaged less than 40% in college.  What I'd like is for McBob (who's also a senior here) to take the open shots he gets.  If he does that in a starting role, he can average a couple a game and raise his scoring from 2.8 a game to 6.  I don't know why you consider that so herculean.

Have a little more respect for fellow members here and I'll return the favor.

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1 hour ago, PoHoosier said:

I think he meant 2 to 5 points from 3.

In my mind, I was thinking average 6 points a game with most of it coming from behind the arc.  That's surely not a stretch if he's starting as a senior? I wasn't really setting a minimum here...more like a goal.  Collin Hartman didn't really start as a senior, was often injured, shot poorly and averaged 4.2 a game.  If a guy is starting, I'd at least like him to be a modest offensive threat.  Just my thoughts...appreciate your support as I really didn't expect to be attacked for an opinion.

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2 hours ago, PoHoosier said:

I think he meant 2 to 5 points from 3.

The comment reads  that if McBob can average 5 attempts from beyond the arc per game, making good on 2 of them per game he’d solidify his status as a starter. Which in no way is more attempts than Hulls had as a senior. It’s actually the same amount and Hulls avg was 44% that year. I’d say that’s a pretty reasonable goal for him if he wants to start. He’s not likely to make a living in the paint this year. By the end of the season, if he earns a starting spot for the full year, I expect his stats to look like 1.7 out of 4.2 per game

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I believe we're thinking similarly.  The mean of 2 to 5 being 3.5 points per game would work out to 7 made per 6 games.  Low to medium/low volume of 3 attempts per game would mean 38.9% shooting.  Some would be pleased with that, while some would likely not.  

Although FKIM01 clarified his post, I was attempting to reconcile the numbers.  Busy work night kept me from posting.

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5 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

In my mind, I was thinking average 6 points a game with most of it coming from behind the arc.  That's surely not a stretch if he's starting as a senior? I wasn't really setting a minimum here...more like a goal.  Collin Hartman didn't really start as a senior, was often injured, shot poorly and averaged 4.2 a game.  If a guy is starting, I'd at least like him to be a modest offensive threat.  Just my thoughts...appreciate your support as I really didn't expect to be attacked for an opinion.

it's kind of KoB's MO if he doesn't agree with you.  

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7 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

In my mind, I was thinking average 6 points a game with most of it coming from behind the arc.  That's surely not a stretch if he's starting as a senior? I wasn't really setting a minimum here...more like a goal.  Collin Hartman didn't really start as a senior, was often injured, shot poorly and averaged 4.2 a game.  If a guy is starting, I'd at least like him to be a modest offensive threat.  Just my thoughts...appreciate your support as I really didn't expect to be attacked for an opinion.

I understand and agree with your opinion.  Basically you can't be playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end.  McBob needs to show teams he can hit from behind the arc to make it 5 on 5.  

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7 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

Math must be tough for you, huh?  I'm asking for a 6 point average here from a starter and you attack a post as insane?!!  Hulls was also a ball handler and distributor (who had Watford, Oladipo and Zeller to carry the scoring load) while averaging as a senior 2.2-5 (44.7%) from three and just under 10 points a game (better check your stats again).  Hulls never averaged less than 40% in college.  What I'd like is for McBob (who's also a senior here) to take the open shots he gets.  If he does that in a starting role, he can average a couple a game and raise his scoring from 2.8 a game to 6.  I don't know why you consider that so herculean.

Have a little more respect for fellow members here and I'll return the favor.

I did use Hulls junior year by mistake, that's my bad. Having said that, it doesnt materially change the point that you're asking for a prolific season out of McRoberts to start despite him being a lot better at the other half the game than many of our other prolific shooters. So yeah, that's an insane expectation to ask your best defender to do that just to deserve to start. 

If you assume we play 35 games (that's winning one game in BTT and NCAAT) that means he makes 70 threes. Watford never did that. Hulls only made 72 his junior year. Zeisloft never made that many. You're asking for a lot as your baseline expectation just for him to start. 

There's nothing disrespectful about calling out bad ideas. I didn't say anything about you. 

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In the past IU has had guys that have started that were offensively challenged.  But they played on good/great teams and they played PG.  Tony Brown and Chris Reynolds come to mind.........but so does Quinn Buckner.   McBob needs to step up his offensive skills or play PG.

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26 minutes ago, rico said:

In the past IU has had guys that have started that were offensively challenged.  But they played on good/great teams and they played PG.  Tony Brown and Chris Reynolds come to mind.........but so does Quinn Buckner.   McBob needs to step up his offensive skills or play PG.

Sampson's team had guys who didn't score much. That's probably the best modern comparison to what this team will be  

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8 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Sampson's team had guys who didn't score much. That's probably the best modern comparison to what this team will be  

I don't know about that.  I will have to look up the stats.  But I am pretty sure that his first year we had  some guys that hovered close to 10 ppg.  His last year year he would have had Gordon, White, Basset, and Crawford.  But I will look it up.

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1 hour ago, rico said:

I don't know about that.  I will have to look up the stats.  But I am pretty sure that his first year we had  some guys that hovered close to 10 ppg.  His last year year he would have had Gordon, White, Basset, and Crawford.  But I will look it up.

Ellis and Stemler both started on that team, neither were prolific scorers. 

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3 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I did use Hulls junior year by mistake, that's my bad. Having said that, it doesnt materially change the point that you're asking for a prolific season out of McRoberts to start despite him being a lot better at the other half the game than many of our other prolific shooters. So yeah, that's an insane expectation to ask your best defender to do that just to deserve to start. 

If you assume we play 35 games (that's winning one game in BTT and NCAAT) that means he makes 70 threes. Watford never did that. Hulls only made 72 his junior year. Zeisloft never made that many. You're asking for a lot as your baseline expectation just for him to start. 

There's nothing disrespectful about calling out bad ideas. I didn't say anything about you. 

Zeisloft wasn't really a starter.  He made 65 3's his senior year averaging 20 minutes a game.  There were six guys who averaged more minutes than Nick and yet, he made 1.9 of 4.5 3's per game averaging 6.5 points (sound familiar?)  Yet, he wasn't even a starter.  Give Nick starter minutes and he would have easily surpassed the benchmark I referenced.  Hulls made 72 3's as a junior?  He made 80 as a senior on a loaded team.  Watford made 60 3's as a senior but he made 67 2's.  His game was a tad bigger than McBob's so no, I would not expect him to have 70 3's just like I don't expect McBob to have many 2's.  Frankly, I don't expect 70 3's out of McBob.  He's not going to start 35 games this season.  I also don't think that expecting him to hit a couple of open 3's a game is out of line if he's getting starter minutes.  There are plenty of other weapons on the floor for McBob to get open looks and he's got to make those to earn the respect of the defense.  Otherwise, IU gets a lot easier to defend playing 4 on 5.

I like McBob but if this team is going to reach it's potential, a senior captain who is starting needs to average at least close to 6 ppg.  Otherwise, I'd bring him off the bench in spots you need extra defense.

...and I'm sorry, you were and are damned disrespectful of other posters who disagree with you.  When you called my opinion insane you absolutely said something about me and frankly, I'm tired of seeing a few (thankfully very few) posters in this forum show such a lack of respect for posters they disagree with.  You don't agree with what I said? Fine.  It's a free country.  Say you RESPECTFULLY disagree (see how much nicer that sounds than saying "your idea is INSANE!"?) and then make your case.  You'll get a lot less push-back when you approach a debate with a little diplomacy.

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