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Dynamic Offensive Coordinator vs. Safe Offensive Coordinator?.....


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Where does our Offensive Coordinator fit here? I think at times DeBord shows glimpses of being sort of Dynamic (first halves of games), but in NO WAY does he stay consistent. I know coaches say that they play with what they have, but come on! Every second have start this year has been a dud. It seems that the 3rd quarter we are just existing and trying stay base/vanilla

. For example, I really love the attitude and aggressiveness that a coach like Frank Reich brings to the Colts.

What does coach Allen really think of this second half lapse of play calling ? I know coach Allen is an honorable, stand up guy, but do you think he gets into DeBords ear over things like this. I just hope that he is not soft in those areas, because Debord needs to wake up or get out of the kitchen! IMO

Edited by Artesian_86
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  • Artesian_86 changed the title to Dynamic Offensive Coordinator vs. Safe Offensive Coordinator?.....
3 minutes ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

I'd start with an OC that keeps us out of the bottom five in the nation in yards per completion. I don't think that's too much to ask.

But to answer your question fully, give me the dynamic OC every time.

That is where I am with this. I just wonder if coach Allen actually lights a fire under Debord and tells him how HE wants and expects this offense to look, or does he trust Debord and stay quiet. IMO, the defense is run with attitude and purpose like a "Junkyard Dog"! I can't even describe how the offense is run. There is definitely a lack of attitude, especially in the second half of games..... 

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33 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said:

Debord would be fine if the talent was there to make up for his deficiencies.  Seems to me we get a comfortable lead and then try to manage the clock.  Cant do that if you cant get the run game going. 

It needs to be the other way around.  If a coach at this level needs talent to make up for their deficiencies, they're a bad coach.  A coach needs to help make up for the deficiencies of his players, and DeBord does little to nothing to help make up for deficiencies we have at OL.

Give me the dynamic coordinator 10 times out of 10.

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2 hours ago, Artesian_86 said:

Where does our Offensive Coordinator fit here? I think at times DeBord shows glimpses of being sort of Dynamic (first halves of games), but in NO WAY does he stay consistent. I know coaches say that they play with what they have, but come on! Every second have start this year has been a dud. It seems that the 3rd quarter we are just existing and trying stay base/vanilla

. For example, I really love the attitude and aggressiveness that a coach like Frank Reich brings to the Colts.

What does coach Allen really think of this second half lapse of play calling ? I know coach Allen is an honorable, stand up guy, but do you think he gets into DeBords ear over things like this. I just hope that he is not soft in those areas, because Debord needs to wake up or get out of the kitchen! IMO

I was thinking the exact same thing in regards to Allen. He needs to hold his friend coaches accountable. That was almost a total disaster. 

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24 minutes ago, OGIUAndy said:

I was thinking the exact same thing in regards to Allen. He needs to hold his friend coaches accountable. That was almost a total disaster. 

I love coach Allen....do not get me wrong. I just hope he is not hesitant to speak firmly with Debord about his play calling. Sort of like he does not want to ruffle feathers. Who knows, maybe CTA has addressed Debord, but it does not look like it is sinking in.

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I am not a big Debord fan. He did a poor job at his last stop, Tennessee, and imo, really screwed things up with the quarterbacks last year.

In regards to the topic of this thread. I wonder if Debord looks the genius at the outset of the games because the plays have been scripted. The staff has had a week to plan out the first 15 or so plays, and the offense looks good. Once those plays have been run through, it appears that our OC doesn't make adjustments, the other team's DC does, and we don't look as sharp.

May not be the case, but I can't come up with any other rationale as to the discrepancy in performance as the game goes on.

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In his last year at Tennessee, DeBord had a guy named Alvin Kamara.  Not sure if anybody has heard of him 😁

In case you didn't know, he was the Rookie of the Year last year, and he's probably the most dynamic RB in the NFL in just his 2nd year.  DeBord literally had to be told to play him more in their last season at Tennessee.  Yeah, they had a good running back in Hurd (who asked to be used more outside with no avail), but Hurd has since moved to WR at Baylor.  Why would they ever try to use a guy like that more outside the tackles?  They said he was too important in the running game despite having Kamara and John Kelly (6th round pick this year) as back ups.  That record setting offense we've heard people talk about might have had more talent at the skill positions than any team in the country.  They still only ranked 28th in S&P+ on offense that year.  For reference, Indiana has had ranks of 15th in 2015 and 6th in 2013 with nowhere near the talent of the 2016 Tennessee team.

Also for DeBord, he coached the greatest QB of all time in Tom Brady to a whopping 6th round pick.  Debord left when Brady graduated, and they actually scored 3.6 more points per game after graduating the best QB ever.

He was also the OC of Michigan in 2007 when they had a stacked offense with Henne, Hart, Mario Manningham, Jake Long all as upperclassmen along with other top players.  That was the team that lost to Appalachian State and went 9-4 after being ranked 5th to start the year.

Alabama fans loved him after a game in 2016 (sound familiar?).

Some Tennesee writers were wanting him fired during their record setting offensive season because he was so conservative (again, sound familiar?).

Tennessee was struggling to play well in the 2nd half after playing well in the first half.  Not sure if that trend continued after the article, but again, sound familiar?

Michigan fans really love him.  Here's a good breakdown of our game against them last year.  Talks about how when DeBord has a play go well he doesn't use a counter to that play, he just goes to the same play again.

I really don't see how anybody can think DeBord is a good offensive coordinator.  As I've seen people put it, it's amazing that he's being able to advance his career so much after being run out of most every place.  He's the poster child of quit before they can fire you and you'll find a good job somewhere else.

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1 hour ago, Leathernecks said:

In his last year at Tennessee, DeBord had a guy named Alvin Kamara.  Not sure if anybody has heard of him 😁

In case you didn't know, he was the Rookie of the Year last year, and he's probably the most dynamic RB in the NFL in just his 2nd year.  DeBord literally had to be told to play him more in their last season at Tennessee.  Yeah, they had a good running back in Hurd (who asked to be used more outside with no avail), but Hurd has since moved to WR at Baylor.  Why would they ever try to use a guy like that more outside the tackles?  They said he was too important in the running game despite having Kamara and John Kelly (6th round pick this year) as back ups.  That record setting offense we've heard people talk about might have had more talent at the skill positions than any team in the country.  They still only ranked 28th in S&P+ on offense that year.  For reference, Indiana has had ranks of 15th in 2015 and 6th in 2013 with nowhere near the talent of the 2016 Tennessee team.

Also for DeBord, he coached the greatest QB of all time in Tom Brady to a whopping 6th round pick.  Debord left when Brady graduated, and they actually scored 3.6 more points per game after graduating the best QB ever.

He was also the OC of Michigan in 2007 when they had a stacked offense with Henne, Hart, Mario Manningham, Jake Long all as upperclassmen along with other top players.  That was the team that lost to Appalachian State and went 9-4 after being ranked 5th to start the year.

Alabama fans loved him after a game in 2016 (sound familiar?).

Some Tennesee writers were wanting him fired during their record setting offensive season because he was so conservative (again, sound familiar?).

Tennessee was struggling to play well in the 2nd half after playing well in the first half.  Not sure if that trend continued after the article, but again, sound familiar?

Michigan fans really love him.  Here's a good breakdown of our game against them last year.  Talks about how when DeBord has a play go well he doesn't use a counter to that play, he just goes to the same play again.

I really don't see how anybody can think DeBord is a good offensive coordinator.  As I've seen people put it, it's amazing that he's being able to advance his career so much after being run out of most every place.  He's the poster child of quit before they can fire you and you'll find a good job somewhere else.

Well said and well thought out.  And you hit a lot of nails on the head.  DeBord is a "carpet bagger".  I am a UT fan and he literally got ran out of Knoxville.  My southern cousins laughed when they heard he was coming here.  The mofo goes where he can get a job.  I will say one thing for him, he has some good friends.  If Allen is the coach I think he is, can DeBord's ass.

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On 10/1/2018 at 2:10 PM, Artesian_86 said:

I love coach Allen....do not get me wrong. I just hope he is not hesitant to speak firmly with Debord about his play calling. Sort of like he does not want to ruffle feathers. Who knows, maybe CTA has addressed Debord, but it does not look like it is sinking in.

Well if Allen wants to keep his job, he'll need to make tough decisions. They have enough weapons on offense to be decent. Hale and Westbrook should be getting a lot more catches than they have. They should of dominated in a game like Saturday's. Literally every pass play in the first half was wide open. I understand you want to run the ball, but you have to take what the D gives you. I am not a big fan of running plays just because that's what want to do. Run plays that are working and scoring you points. IU is not good enough to "run out the clock." If they're up 40, then maybe you can slow down.  

I just saw this article and thought it was relative to this conversation. Whether you like Leach or not, he's right: https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/mike-leach-sounds-off-on-the-concept-of-a-balanced-offense-thats-50-percent-stupid/ Just because you want to run the ball, doesn't mean you should. Defenses are going crowd the box every game until Ramsey proves he can throw it 10 yards. That being said, he had wide open guys and was hitting them against Rutgers, yet the 2nd half we decide to try and 'run' down the clock? The running game was not there. If you want to get the RBs involved in the game, then throw it to them. 

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On 10/1/2018 at 12:37 PM, Artesian_86 said:

What does coach Allen really think of this second half lapse of play calling ? I know coach Allen is an honorable, stand up guy, but do you think he gets into DeBords ear over things like this. I just hope that he is not soft in those areas, because Debord needs to wake up or get out of the kitchen! IMO

I think coach Allen hinted at his answer to this question (and all the other related posts in this thread) during his on-field interview at the end of the Rutgers game.

The interviewer asked something like “How do you think your team finished?” Allen gave a stern and immediate “Not to my standards.” He sounded pissed. He continued, saying “Defense fought hard the entire game, but the offense needs to improve.” 

Now, who he was refering to is only speculation, but I can’t think of any skill players on offense who gave poor individual effort or played poorly enough to be called out. It could’ve been a shot at the o-line, but it seems more likely that it was an implicit shot at the conservative, vanilla playcalling of the second half.

Even if it wasn’t a shot at anything or anyone in particular, he let it be know that he was very unsatisfied with the offense as a whole. He recognizes that things need to change, and I don’t think his friendship with Debord is blinding his ability to recognize Debord as the potential problem.

Edited by BENDOVER
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That's a slippery slope right there. If Allen publicly throws Debord under the bus, he's admitting that he made a mistake in hiring probably his most important assistant. He's a defense guy. He needs an OC who can take the reigns and ensure that Allen can focus on what he knows best.

 I am not a big fan of any head coach publicly criticizing his staff. Let this season play out. If Debord is the weak link, I hope Allen recognizes it and deals with it during the off season 

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38 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

That's a slippery slope right there. If Allen publicly throws Debord under the bus, he's admitting that he made a mistake in hiring probably his most important assistant. He's a defense guy. He needs an OC who can take the reigns and ensure that Allen can focus on what he knows best.

 I am not a big fan of any head coach publicly criticizing his staff. Let this season play out. If Debord is the weak link, I hope Allen recognizes it and deals with it during the off season 

I think the point is CTA making sure he is communicating what he expects from his OC NOW and not later after potentially blowing another season without a Bowl bid.  If Debord doesn't deliver then it's time to part ways.

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1 hour ago, Steubenhoosier said:

That's a slippery slope right there. If Allen publicly throws Debord under the bus, he's admitting that he made a mistake in hiring probably his most important assistant. He's a defense guy. He needs an OC who can take the reigns and ensure that Allen can focus on what he knows best.

 I am not a big fan of any head coach publicly criticizing his staff. Let this season play out. If Debord is the weak link, I hope Allen recognizes it and deals with it during the off season 

Not sure if you’re replying to my post, but coach Allen didn’t publicly call out, criticize, or throw anyone under the bus. Pretty sure my quote was what he said, verbatim. 

I was showing that Allen explicitly stated the offense did not meet his standards, which is a professional and reasonable thing to say after the game they had. Even if it was implicitly directed at an individual, he didn’t drop any names or suggest any individual blame. He has a right to be upset with the offense. And he handled that frustration professionally. 

I only speculated that it’s possible Allen recognized playcalling as the issue.

I’d rather have a coach who recognizes a problem and deals with it, than a coach who cares more about relationships than effectiveness.

Edited by BENDOVER
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52 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said:

Debord was an offensive lineman.  if Allen doesnt want to fire him he could make him an assistant o-line coach.

He’s also pretty old and was considering retiring. It’s not unreasonable to suggest retirement if the offense continues to fail to produce. I think that’s a more than reasonable conversation for a HC to have, behind closed doors, with his old and ineffective OC.

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1 hour ago, Steubenhoosier said:

That's a slippery slope right there. If Allen publicly throws Debord under the bus, he's admitting that he made a mistake in hiring probably his most important assistant. He's a defense guy. He needs an OC who can take the reigns and ensure that Allen can focus on what he knows best.

 I am not a big fan of any head coach publicly criticizing his staff. Let this season play out. If Debord is the weak link, I hope Allen recognizes it and deals with it during the off season 

He could demote him and do it in a way that "saves face".  The public doesn't even have to know.

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37 minutes ago, BENDOVER said:

Not sure if you’re replying to my post, but coach Allen didn’t publicly call out, criticize, or throw anyone under the bus. Pretty sure my quote was what he said, verbatim. 

I was showing that Allen explicitly stated the offense did not meet his standards, which is a professional and reasonable thing to say after the game they had. Even if it was implicitly directed at an individual, he didn’t drop any names or suggest any individual blame. He has a right to be upset with the offense. And he handled that frustration professionally. 

I only speculated that it’s possible Allen recognized playcalling as the issue.

I’d rather have a coach who recognizes a problem and deals with it, than a coach who cares more about relationships than effectiveness.

Please read my post again. I did not say that Allen called out anyone. I said, if he does, imo that would be a mistake.

 I agree that Allen expressed his displeasure about his offense. Could have just been frustration in the moment. I'll stick by my opinion that he needs to let the season play out. Let Debordsee if he can make adjustments and turn things around. Either he can, the team improves, and he keeps his job. Or, Allen deals with it, knowing that he gave Debord every  chance to succeed. Allen can recognize the problem and deal with it several ways. I would prefer that he gives Debord, all his staff really, a little bit of slack. 

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35 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Please read my post again. I did not say that Allen called out anyone. I said, if he does, imo that would be a mistake.

 I agree that Allen expressed his displeasure about his offense. Could have just been frustration in the moment. I'll stick by my opinion that he needs to let the season play out. Let Debordsee if he can make adjustments and turn things around. Either he can, the team improves, and he keeps his job. Or, Allen deals with it, knowing that he gave Debord every  chance to succeed. Allen can recognize the problem and deal with it several ways. I would prefer that he gives Debord, all his staff really, a little bit of slack. 

I understand. I wouldn't be happy if coach Allen handles things in the way you're wary of. I agree with you there. But my point is that he hasn't said or done anything to suggest he'd handle it that way, so I'm not going to worry about that.

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Good points.  I feel like Debord is simply overcautious.   He really tightens up in pressure situations.   A younger, more imaginative play caller who is looking for a promotion to IU may be a good idea in the offseason.   I don’t know enough about Sheridan to judge whether he’d do better.

Another coach I’d look hard at is the offensive line coach, Darren Hiller.  That group has been underachieving now for two years.  IMO there is more talent on the line than is coming out on game day.  

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4 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Good points.  I feel like Debord is simply overcautious.   He really tightens up in pressure situations.   A younger, more imaginative play caller who is looking for a promotion to IU may be a good idea in the offseason.   I don’t know enough about Sheridan to judge whether he’d do better.

Another coach I’d look hard at is the offensive line coach, Darren Hiller.  That group has been underachieving now for two years.  IMO there is more talent on the line than is coming out on game day.  

Nothing wrong with what you said, but to me Allen is still auditioning for the IU job.  He better be thinking about the CYA method.

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