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Should Tom Allen be fired?


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8 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Let me preface this by saying that I like Coach Allen.  Now.... having said that, just as a basketball coach, I feel a football coach, should be allowed at minimum.... a four year recruiting cycle, to imprint his kind of players on his team. Using that as a base, time is running out.  IMHO, Coach Allen should be allowed at least one more year at IU.  In terms of coaching support, like many of you have said, Coach Allen may be forced to have some difficult decisions to make at the end of the season.  So, no. Coach Allen should not be fired.... yet. 

So in your opinion Mile,.....does Allen know he has to make coaching changes at various, or is he going to be too nice? Is he ALSO going allow those coaches to try to recruit better and allow more time to establish themselves at their respective positions? 

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23 minutes ago, Artesian_86 said:

So in your opinion Mile,.....does Allen know he has to make coaching changes at various, or is he going to be too nice? Is he ALSO going allow those coaches to try to recruit better and allow more time to establish themselves at their respective positions? 

I cannot pretend to know what is going on in Coach Allen's mind.  I just referenced what many of you fine Hoosier Sports Nation members had to say in terms of what coaching changes, if any, need to be made, for this program to move forward.

I will say this.  If I were Mr. Glass, the first thing I would do, once the season is over, is have a talk with Coach Allen. In order to pick his mind. And to tell him that improving the IU FB product is of high priority. And that Mr. Glass should support Coach Allen in any and all efforts to move this program forward. If that means getting a completely new supporting cast, so be it. Support your  main man. For now, at least.  Again, I think it is too early to make a move on Coach Allen.  For one.... what quality coach would want to come to IU, if he felt he would not get the proper amount of time to mold this program to him ?   I don't know about the rest of Hoosier Sports Nation, but for one, I am not prepared to start over again... just yet. 

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28 minutes ago, Artesian_86 said:

So in your opinion Mile,.....does Allen know he has to make coaching changes at various, or is he going to be too nice? Is he ALSO going allow those coaches to try to recruit better and allow more time to establish themselves at their respective positions? 

Under normal circumstances i would agree. But everyone forgets that Allen has been there as a DC so he has had time to recruit and imprint. Also, Allen was not hired in a real coach search environment. If the team finishes this year with less than six wins, with a better oline and a very favorable schedule, then it is time for him to go. He had a chance to make changes after last season but failed, this program can not become a resting place for local boys coaches.

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57 minutes ago, Payday said:

Under normal circumstances i would agree. But everyone forgets that Allen has been there as a DC so he has had time to recruit and imprint. Also, Allen was not hired in a real coach search environment. If the team finishes this year with less than six wins, with a better oline and a very favorable schedule, then it is time for him to go. He had a chance to make changes after last season but failed, this program can not become a resting place for local boys coaches.

Considering your knowledge and close up relationships to IU football, I have always trusted your opinions.  Respectfully, in this case, however, I have to disagree with you. There is something to be said about loyalty.  And something to be said about realizing one has made a mistake.  Perhaps it is time to make a change.  But not just yet for Coach Allen.

Give him one more year.  If Coach Allen can't figure it out by then.... I will have to fall on the sword, and agree it will be time to make a change. 

Gotta admit.... I was somewhat put out by the topic of this thread, to start.  Had to wait a while before considering what to say.  But it has turned into a very good, civil  and fruitful discussion. Kudos to all. And to DJ for starting this thread.

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1 hour ago, Payday said:

Under normal circumstances i would agree. But everyone forgets that Allen has been there as a DC so he has had time to recruit and imprint. Also, Allen was not hired in a real coach search environment. If the team finishes this year with less than six wins, with a better oline and a very favorable schedule, then it is time for him to go. He had a chance to make changes after last season but failed, this program can not become a resting place for local boys coaches.

Along those lines, if I'm the AD and evaluating him as a HC, he needs to demonstrate NOW that he can be a HC.  It's nearly a consensus that DeBord is incompetent.  CTA needs to relieve him of his responsibility NOW.  No need to wait till end of season to show that CTA is capable of making the tough decisions.  It would also send a message to the remaining assistant coaches that they will be held accountable.  He needs to build a culture of achievement amongst the coaches and the players. If CTA cannot do this then he will be gone.

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1 hour ago, FWIUFan said:

Along those lines, if I'm the AD and evaluating him as a HC, he needs to demonstrate NOW that he can be a HC.  It's nearly a consensus that DeBord is incompetent.  CTA needs to relieve him of his responsibility NOW.  No need to wait till end of season to show that CTA is capable of making the tough decisions.  It would also send a message to the remaining assistant coaches that they will be held accountable.  He needs to build a culture of achievement amongst the coaches and the players. If CTA cannot do this then he will be gone.

And the bye week is the absolute best time to make a change. 

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IMO it’s fair to be concerned but it’s way too premature to let Coach Allen go.  I think he needs time to adjust to some of the shortcomings and use that experience to see the plan through.  

There are a few changes he needs to make.  Debord is frankly not a big thinker at offensive coordinator.  Furthermore, his throat invariably tightens up when it’s a critical situation.  He generally zags when he should be zigging.  

Allen should not be the D coordinator.  In-game when the D comes off the field, by definition he cannot improvise and implement adjustments, or talk to the players individually, because he’s now coaching the whole game.  He may be delegating it but it’s not working when he’s ultimately the D coordinator.  

The special teams have been a spectacular failure.  Two long returns by PSU or the punt block.  IU is not talented enough to hand over hidden yardage and points on specials.  They look like a pop warner team.  IU has to be sound on special teams to win games.

The ability to complete a victory is elusive to the staff right now, and it’s obviously not a coincidence.  When it’s crunch time, they don’t know how to win.  

Mile makes a great point that, unless there are extenuating circumstances, you send a horrible message to the coaching fraternity when you only give a coach two years.  I think it’s four years minimum.  

Going forward, I like some of the athleticism and depth on D, and there is darn good talent at the skill positions.  I hope the offensive line improves and perhaps you need a new assistant there.  

 

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15 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

IMO it’s fair to be concerned but it’s way too premature to let Coach Allen go.  I think he needs time to adjust to some of the shortcomings and use that experience to see the plan through.  

There are a few changes he needs to make.  Debord is frankly not a big thinker at offensive coordinator.  Furthermore, his throat invariably tightens up when it’s a critical situation.  He generally zags when he should be zigging.  

Allen should not be the D coordinator.  In-game when the D comes off the field, by definition he cannot improvise and implement adjustments, or talk to the players individually, because he’s now coaching the whole game.  He may be delegating it but it’s not working when he’s ultimately the D coordinator.  

The special teams have been a spectacular failure.  Two long returns by PSU or the punt block.  IU is not talented enough to hand over hidden yardage and points on specials.  They look like a pop warner team.  IU has to be sound on special teams to win games.

The ability to complete a victory is elusive to the staff right now, and it’s obviously not a coincidence.  When it’s crunch time, they don’t know how to win.  

Mile makes a great point that, unless there are extenuating circumstances, you send a horrible message to the coaching fraternity when you only give a coach two years.  I think it’s four years minimum.  

Going forward, I like some of the athleticism and depth on D, and there is darn good talent at the skill positions.  I hope the offensive line improves and perhaps you need a new assistant there.  

 

All good points. Here is my concern. If they do not win another game we can forget recruiting. Unless you are willing to risk NCAA violations, good recruits do not look favorably on that type of a season. We have a tough road anyway and losing out late in the season is a death nail. Normally I would say you need three to four years to be fair but the way he was hired, without a real talent search, concerns me regarding the message it sends to recruits. That and you always want to see a program improving. Four years has to be balanced by seeing notable improvements. The line is better this year, we have a very good back but I recognize he is young so you discount that a bit, the receivers are good, and the schedule was very favorable because PSU, Mstate, and Michigan are a little down this year. I agree with mile one hundred percent, but i just don’t like the way he was hired, some of the backroom stuff, and because he was not a top tier coach with pedigree and experience coming in I’m not sure we can sit for four years and not see the program devastated. At the end of this year he will have been here three full years and two plus at head coach. If you have a top tier coach who just can’t seem to fix a program there is a good chance he is at least, like at the university of Texas, still bringing in talent and a new coach can step in and you are like UT and magically, and prematurely, in the top twenty. But if you have a dud and wait you run the risk of having the shelves empty and the turn around being a six year process if you can get a top tier coach at that point. I think that how this group finishes, and you will be able to see it on the player’s faces, will determine if they have lost faith in the coach and if a change is needed. But make no mistake about it, this is a very dangerous position for the program, not the season. I say that while sitting here watching USF and Houston on tv and fighting for rankings. Guys, those aren’t schools creating genius level people, maybe not even top tier Target managers, but they are competing at a higher level. We can do better, being mediocre is a state of mind.

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8 hours ago, Hoosier82 said:

All of those things makes perfect sense (except maybe Hart isn’t ready yet, no way for us to know) but none will happen. This guy is used to being a dictator at Ben Davis. He doesn’t know what he’s doing in the BigTen

Yea he hasn’t been a head coach in college but you think all those years he was DC he just closed his eyes? Obviously he observed watched and was a part of running the team so he knows what things worked and didn’t under last head coaches he was coordinator for.

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Here's the way I look at it. No offense to Indiana guys.  But I have always considered three states to consistently have the top talent in football, year in and year out.  Texas, Florida and Ohio.  And perhaps in that order. Though I could switch out the last two, depending upon year.  It's kind of like what those states are to football as what Indiana is to basketball.

Now... I had no idea the makeup of the roster's of  either USF or Houston.  But I did suspect. So, I checked.  Houston currently has 92 players from Texas and 2 from Florida. While USF has 97 players from Florida on it's roster. They may be second tier teams in their respective states, that may be knocking on ratings rankings. But in many cases, it would take a dud to mess up with the talent that those two programs are getting. In other words, it may not be the man at the top, but the talent on the field that makes the man at the top look like a genius.   It would kind of  be like IU having every player on it''s basketball roster from Indiana.  One would not have to be a great coach to get that kind of talent, and look good every year. 

Another thing.  IU has made inroads into that Florida talent, just as some B1G coaches have attempted to do in terms of poaching basketball talent out of Indiana.  Relationships, particularly out of state, are hard to establish and maintain.  So it's nice to know IU has something like 18 players from Florida, at least one out of Texas, and a handful out of Ohio.  I would not want to start over in terms of what is building in those three states. 

 

For me, in terms of Coach Allen, it not    Time To Say Good-Bye 

 

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I've said many times that Allen is the second coming of Chuck Pagano.  He's probably a really a great person, is a players coach, and has that ra ra personality.  If you listen to the man though you quickly conclude that he clearly isn't very bright and couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag.  Time to cut bait.

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15 hours ago, Hoosier82 said:

His mismanagement of even the simplest concepts speaks volumes. Game management/lack of meaningful adjustments, personnel management, clock management are all things he’s absolutely terrible at. Making himself DC...terrible decision. Even the best coaches in the country aren’t dumb enough to assume that works. Hiring a failed OC and not holding him accountable is just icing on the cake. His recruiting isn’t that much better than Wilson’s and far from makes up for his shortcomings. 

This.  I don’t think he should be fired but man he has made some bad decisions, from staff to not hiring a dc.  But Hart is solid.  Recruiting is decent.  But his in game decisions and that ST Play are bad as well.

This thread feels very much like the start of the old fire Bill Lynch threads from the old site.  The on field results mirror that era as well.  But he deserves more time to adjust and make the right calls.  In the end I won’t blame CTA of this fails, but I will definitely call out Fred Glass.

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9 hours ago, FWIUFan said:

Along those lines, if I'm the AD and evaluating him as a HC, he needs to demonstrate NOW that he can be a HC.  It's nearly a consensus that DeBord is incompetent.  CTA needs to relieve him of his responsibility NOW.  No need to wait till end of season to show that CTA is capable of making the tough decisions.  It would also send a message to the remaining assistant coaches that they will be held accountable.  He needs to build a culture of achievement amongst the coaches and the players. If CTA cannot do this then he will be gone.

Once again the key is the AD.  Glass needs to jump in and take ownership here.  He looks like the biggest fool in this situation to me.  I can’t help but think about what I have heard countless times, the president and University administration don’t care about sports at IU like it once was.  They don’t want another Knight situation.  They want safe hires and coaches  that are not outspoken, ones they can control.  I am a big Archie fan but former IU players have said he was chosen because he was someone who doesn’t have a rep or ego to contain like a Cal/Izzo if you will.  Wilson may not have been proven before he got here but that personality could not be contained.  They learned after the fact what kind of character guy he is.  CTA, while full of fire, is a company man.  I can’t help but wonder even if IU let go of CTA this year, next year, or whenever would an upgrade be brought in?  They will choose the perceived safe choice again and again.  There will be no splash/wow/$$$ hire.

My hope is CTA makes the right choices soon and that they pay off.  Nothing better is coming.

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18 hours ago, 5 championships said:

Yea he hasn’t been a head coach in college but you think all those years he was DC he just closed his eyes? Obviously he observed watched and was a part of running the team so he knows what things worked and didn’t under last head coaches he was coordinator for.

Allen has very little relevant experience in power 5 football. Two years as LB/ST coach at Ole Miss and one as DC at South Florida before coming to Indiana.  All what years???

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11 hours ago, iuthruandthru said:

This.  I don’t think he should be fired but man he has made some bad decisions, from staff to not hiring a dc.  But Hart is solid.  Recruiting is decent.  But his in game decisions and that ST Play are bad as well.

This thread feels very much like the start of the old fire Bill Lynch threads from the old site.  The on field results mirror that era as well.  But he deserves more time to adjust and make the right calls.  In the end I won’t blame CTA of this fails, but I will definitely call out Fred Glass.

I wouldn't say they mirror Lynch's years yet since I have not seen us lose 83-20 yet.  Also the talent level n these teams are way greater than what Lynch brought to IU.

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3 hours ago, hoosiertildeath said:

After only 2 seasons ? You've got go be kidding !!!!! I say he deserves at least 3 more years !!!!

The program wasn't exactly starting over from scratch though. Very few transfers and decent talent. I have no problem giving him more time, but how much? Coaches very rarely start coaching better. I'd say he has to at least have them playing much, much better the last few games to consider keeping him longer. Recruiting is going to suffer either way if they lose out. 

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With a competent offensive coordinator last year, we likely would have won at least 1 of Michigan, MSU, Maryland, and Purdue to go bowling.  This year we likely would have won the Minnesota game, and we'd feel much better about our season at this point in time. Our first 3 drives ended in field goals when we probably should have had at least 2 touchdowns out of it. I'm sure our crappy offensive play calls starts wearing down the whole team, the defense included.

My opinion of Allen rests mostly on if he gets rid of DeBord or not.  If DeBord goes and we hire somebody decent, we'll be better than fine.  If DeBord stays, we might be in trouble, but we still have a lot of really talented freshman and sophomores who could be really good in the coming years.

Moral of the story, DeBord needs to go before Allen needs to go.  I can't believe people want a coach fired after less than 2 years who has our recruiting as good as it's ever been, and who coaches a good defense.  I'm sure coaches would be lining up to coach us if we did that 🙄

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46 minutes ago, hoosiertildeath said:

After only 2 seasons ? You've got go be kidding !!!!! I say he deserves at least 3 more years !!!!

He has risen !

Many, many Hoosier Sports Nation members have been worried about you.  On several threads.

Great to see you.  And I am sure they are too !

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1 hour ago, Leathernecks said:

With a competent offensive coordinator last year, we likely would have won at least 1 of Michigan, MSU, Maryland, and Purdue to go bowling.  This year we likely would have won the Minnesota game, and we'd feel much better about our season at this point in time. Our first 3 drives ended in field goals when we probably should have had at least 2 touchdowns out of it. I'm sure our crappy offensive play calls starts wearing down the whole team, the defense included.

My opinion of Allen rests mostly on if he gets rid of DeBord or not.  If DeBord goes and we hire somebody decent, we'll be better than fine.  If DeBord stays, we might be in trouble, but we still have a lot of really talented freshman and sophomores who could be really good in the coming years.

Moral of the story, DeBord needs to go before Allen needs to go.  I can't believe people want a coach fired after less than 2 years who has our recruiting as good as it's ever been, and who coaches a good defense.  I'm sure coaches would be lining up to coach us if we did that 🙄

I'm of this same mindset.  I still think IU will be pretty good about two years from now.  Hiring a new OC or Debord having an epiphany (unlikely) is a big part of that.

BY FAR, Debord's biggest problem is red zone play calling.  That's not his only problem, but man, it's the one that stands out the most.  And when we throw a corner fade on 3rd and 1 at the 4 yard line two times in a row after Stevie Scott has been shoving it down the other team's throat the entire drive, you better believe it deflates the whole team when we turn it over on downs or kick three straight field goals.

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14 minutes ago, rogue3542 said:

I'm of this same mindset.  I still think IU will be pretty good about two years from now.  Hiring a new OC or Debord having an epiphany (unlikely) is a big part of that.

BY FAR, Debord's biggest problem is red zone play calling.  That's not his only problem, but man, it's the one that stands out the most.  And when we throw a corner fade on 3rd and 1 at the 4 yard line two times in a row after Stevie Scott has been shoving it down the other team's throat the entire drive, you better believe it deflates the whole team when we turn it over on downs or kick three straight field goals.

It’s not just DeBord. Our defense is terrible. Allen needs to hire a coordinator and focus on his greater job. He also needs these people to be better ambassadors of IU football on the recruiting trail. I have no doubt parents of recruits love Allen but I’m not sold on the idea players are drawn to him personally. The program has regressed since he took over while other programs (mainly Purdue) are making strides forward. 

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