Chicago State Postgame Thread

[NCHoosier32]

really like pretty much everyone.  play Langford and Morgan big minutes.  Smith, Fitzner, Green, and Phinessee a lot of minutes, and sprinkle the rest in as much each game as they have earned in practice and when they get in games.  go ahead and start McRoberts.  doesn't necessarily have to play starter minutes though.  FTs have got to get better now!  i know the new game is to shoot a ton of 3's, but i would love to see this team look more to drive and to move the ball to get inside looks of cuts. 

[dwtaylor1055]

- Langford is so smooth and knows what spots to get to with or without the ball in his hands.

- Rob P. to me has the chance to be what Yogi was to this team during his time here and if this happens, watch out.

- J. Smith looks more comfortable and is always looking for that grand slam(he almost dunked on 4 people in the lane during a put back dunk that he missed).

-Fitzner shooting stroke is so smooth, a legit weapon behind the 3pt line that you cannot leave wide open and he played pretty well on defense I thought.

-I am now curious to see how Archie handles the minutes once Race, Hunter and Al return.  To me I am not sure who loses the most minutes. I guess this is a great problem to have

 

Overall with who we were playing, I was very pleased with everyone on the team with ball movement, defense, and rebounding.  One thing I noticed, it took them a few possessions I felt like to get the ball at the FT line when Chicago State was in zone.  Once they hit the guy at the FT line, it almost always left a cutter open(assuming he cute to the goal) or someone open for the 3 ball from the corner or side.

[jimsorgi]

10 hours ago, dbmhoosier said:

The FT shooting just amazes me.  Were we ever this bad under Crean or Davis?  I know we were excellent under RMK.  I was never a good basketball player but I could shoot 20 and make at least 18 everytime at their age.  It just can't happen in the big games.  I still have nightmares of Deron going 0-4 down the stretch against Duke and costing us a very winnable game.

Just skimmed back through the last 35 years. Years we shot under 70%:

1994-1995

1998-1999

2000-20001 (63.6%; the worst year).

2001-2002

2005-2006

2008-2009

2009-2010

2017-18

 

Knight teams were almost always good (and consistent) but rarely exceptional - consistently in the 71-73% range.

[5fouls]

Romeo will be our high-volume free throw shooter, and in the end, he will shoot 70-75%.  He's not going to be Alford at the line (or from 3 point range).  As far as team FT%, I don't think there will be a high volume shooter that will help drag the team % up from Romeo's.  I expect Morgan, Green, and Phinisee, to be right around the same percentage as Romeo.  Fitzner will likely be higher, but he won't be high volume.  Meanwhile, Smith, who might shoot the 2nd most behind Romeo, will likely be below 70%, and Davis will most likely shoot less than 50%.

So, in the end, if Romeo shoots closer to 75%, we probably break 70% as a team.  If Romeo is around 71-72%, we will likely be somewhere between 67-69% as a team.

[rico]

18 minutes ago, jimsorgi said:

Just skimmed back through the last 35 years. Years we shot under 70%:

1994-1995

1998-1999

2000-20001 (63.6%; the worst year).

2001-2002

2005-2006

2008-2009

2009-2010

2017-18

 

Knight teams were almost always good (and consistent) but rarely exceptional - consistently in the 71-73% range.

Knight teams got to the line a lot.

[jimsorgi]

13 minutes ago, rico said:

Knight teams got to the line a lot.

Broad generalizations, but late 80s and early 90s Knight teams played at a pretty fast pace and shot a lot of free throws.  

Early/mid 80s Knight teams shot about the same number of free throws as IU did last year under Archie. Mid-late 90s Knight teams were a bit in between.

[rico]

2 minutes ago, jimsorgi said:

Broad generalizations, but late 80s and early 90s Knight teams played at a pretty fast pace and shot a lot of free throws.  

Early/mid 80s Knight teams shot about the same number of free throws as IU did last year under Archie. Mid-late 90s Knight teams were a bit in between.

I would have to look all that stuff up Jim.  

[ADegenerate]

Had class and just caught the first half.

First half thoughts:

1) I always thought Romeo's shooting was a bit overstated. I think we'd be lucky to have him around 37-38% (with Volume). I'm definitely not going to overreact to this game but the first signs are very promising.

2) I tried to kill that Good/Bad Devonte stuff as it's a huge pet peeve of mine but I don't think that's going to happen. We'll see if he irons out some consistency (I don't think he will. he plays on emotion and isn't afraid to take risks which gives him his volatile nickname). 

3) McRoberts needs to be shooting the ball more. 1 per game on .394 is passing up too many good looks.

4) Fitzner is why you don't pass out schollys left and right. Go hard for your main targets and if you miss then you can find quality out there in a grad xfer.

5) Rob is further along than I thought. Honestly he's not the style of PG that I prefer but obviously he has the talent to do the job asked of him. 

6) I loved the pace and style of play we went for. I took most of last season off. Stress and burnout got the best of me plus that offense was abysmal for me. 

7) I think most of us that follow the program year round were fairly confident that we were flying under the radar. I don't know where we stand in the pack nationally, but I highly doubt it's out of the top 25.

8 ) Shoutout to the poster who was saying that people were sleeping on Damezi. I forget his name but I felt like he had a chance too. Two games in and he doesn't look out of place as a 7-8 MPG player.

[The Daily Hoosier]

Here is our Report Card for the game.

https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/chicago-state-at-indiana-the-report-card/

[bluegrassIU]

53 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Romeo will be our high-volume free throw shooter, and in the end, he will shoot 70-75%.  He's not going to be Alford at the line (or from 3 point range).  As far as team FT%, I don't think there will be a high volume shooter that will help drag the team % up from Romeo's.  I expect Morgan, Green, and Phinisee, to be right around the same percentage as Romeo.  Fitzner will likely be higher, but he won't be high volume.  Meanwhile, Smith, who might shoot the 2nd most behind Romeo, will likely be below 70%, and Davis will most likely shoot less than 50%.

So, in the end, if Romeo shoots closer to 75%, we probably break 70% as a team.  If Romeo is around 71-72%, we will likely be somewhere between 67-69% as a team.

Wow dork, you really spent way too much time breaking that down.

I mean  ummm, errrr, nice analysis!

[5fouls]

15 minutes ago, The Daily Hoosier said:

Here is our Report Card for the game.

https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/chicago-state-at-indiana-the-report-card/

Nice work.  

[IU Scott]

From my perspective

Good- RP is a good floor leader, Fitzner is a great role player for this year, Romeo is smooth

Bad- Green seems to be the same player as last year and at the end of the game could not believe he had 15 points, Free throw shooting was horrible.

I just don't understand how a college team be so bad at shooting free throws and there is no excuse for a team not to shoot at least 75%.

[ADegenerate]

16 minutes ago, bluegrassIU said:

Wow dork, you really spent way too much time breaking that down.

I mean  ummm, errrr, nice analysis!

hahaha

Love it! I'm not saying that's a crazy post but that's definitely a post my crazy ass would make. Keep it up @5fouls you did me proud.

[Hoosierhoopster]

Personally, I think the weighing in on Green negatively based on one game is off base -- I of course could be wrong, but for me you can't draw these kind of generalizations on one game, and btw he scored very well and second on the team with 15. If he'd hit his 3's he would've led scoring running away. 

It may be that he is better as a combo-off the ball guard -- I think he probably is -- and Rob's decision-making is looking top flight (really, really impressed with his early, steady play). I think it's unclear at this very early point on how the ball-handling / guard distribution roles will play out. We certainly have the makings of strong 3-guard lineups to go with balanced forward lineups. What I am taking from the early play, recognizing it's early, is that we've got a lot of reason to be optimistic about our developing guard play -- we haven't even had Al healthy, Rob looks very good early, and Green, minimally, should bring strong scoring from the backcourt. 

[The Daily Hoosier]

15 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Personally, I think the weighing in on Green negatively based on one game is off base -- I of course could be wrong, but for me you can't draw these kind of generalizations on one game, and btw he scored very well and second on the team with 15. If he'd hit his 3's he would've led scoring running away. 

It may be that he is better as a combo-off the ball guard -- I think he probably is -- and Rob's decision-making is looking top flight (really, really impressed with his early, steady play). I think it's unclear at this very early point on how the ball-handling / guard distribution roles will play out. We certainly have the makings of strong 3-guard lineups to go with balanced forward lineups. What I am taking from the early play, recognizing it's early, is that we've got a lot of reason to be optimistic about our developing guard play -- we haven't even had Al healthy, Rob looks very good early, and Green, minimally, should bring strong scoring from the backcourt. 

I thought Miller's post game comments were interesting.  When asked about Green and Phinisee -- he immediately jumped to Durham.  I think you are going to see a lot of balance in the minutes with Green, Rob and Al, which should keep them all fresh and active.  I like all three players and think that approach has a lot of potential.

[FW_Hoosier]

3 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said:

really like pretty much everyone.  play Langford and Morgan big minutes.  Smith, Fitzner, Green, and Phinessee a lot of minutes, and sprinkle the rest in as much each game as they have earned in practice and when they get in games.  go ahead and start McRoberts.  doesn't necessarily have to play starter minutes though.  FTs have got to get better now!  i know the new game is to shoot a ton of 3's, but i would love to see this team look more to drive and to move the ball to get inside looks of cuts. 

Why wouldn’t we play McRoberts starter minutes?  He’s once again our best perimeter defender, and he looks a lot more confident shooting the ball now.  Led the team in +/- last night.  He’s going to be one of our most important players this season — definitely going be top 5 in minutes played.

16 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Personally, I think the weighing in on Green negatively based on one game is off base -- I of course could be wrong, but for me you can't draw these kind of generalizations on one game, and btw he scored very well and second on the team with 15. If he'd hit his 3's he would've led scoring running away. 

It may be that he is better as a combo-off the ball guard -- I think he probably is -- and Rob's decision-making is looking top flight (really, really impressed with his early, steady play). I think it's unclear at this very early point on how the ball-handling / guard distribution roles will play out. We certainly have the makings of strong 3-guard lineups to go with balanced forward lineups. What I am taking from the early play, recognizing it's early, is that we've got a lot of reason to be optimistic about our developing guard play -- we haven't even had Al healthy, Rob looks very good early, and Green, minimally, should bring strong scoring from the backcourt. 

I’d rather have Romeo jacking all those shots than Green.  4 turnovers to 3 assists also isn’t what we need from our PG.  At this point, I don’t see him taking the starting role back from Phinisee this season — like you said, I think he will be best playing off-ball.  He did look great on defense last night though.

[ADegenerate]

32 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

From my perspective

Good- RP is a good floor leader, Fitzner is a great role player for this year, Romeo is smooth

Bad- Green seems to be the same player as last year and at the end of the game could not believe he had 15 points, Free throw shooting was horrible.

I just don't understand how a college team be so bad at shooting free throws and there is no excuse for a team not to shoot at least 75%.

It's a different game now. 75% would put you in the top 30 in this age.

 

Worrying about free throw percentage is a waste of time. 

Last season: 644 FTA / 31 games = 20.7  attempts per game. 

20.7 per game X 67% = 13.8 points on free throw.

Bump it to 71% and we earned about a whopping half a point per game.

 

Factor in that there's a thing called offensive rebounding and it's basically a nonissue. I'd love to see the offensive rebounding % on free throws too because that's an extra 1.2 points or so. 

 

[IU Scott]

6 minutes ago, ADegenerate said:

It's a different game now. 75% would put you in the top 30 in this age.

 

Worrying about free throw percentage is a waste of time. 

Last season: 644 FTA / 31 games = 20.7  attempts per game. 

20.7 per game X 67% = 13.8 points on free throw.

Bump it to 71% and we earned about a whopping half a point per game.

 

Factor in that there's a thing called offensive rebounding and it's basically a nonissue. I'd love to see the offensive rebounding % on free throws too because that's an extra 1.2 points or so. 

 

I guess I just don't buy that argument about FT's because a lot of times it is the difference between a win or a loss.  Just take the Pacers the other night where they lost by 4 to the Rockets while shooting under 60% from the line.  You just look at things from the statistical point of views and not from the game viewpoint because free throws are one of the most important things in a game. 

[IU Scott]

42 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Personally, I think the weighing in on Green negatively based on one game is off base -- I of course could be wrong, but for me you can't draw these kind of generalizations on one game, and btw he scored very well and second on the team with 15. If he'd hit his 3's he would've led scoring running away. 

It may be that he is better as a combo-off the ball guard -- I think he probably is -- and Rob's decision-making is looking top flight (really, really impressed with his early, steady play). I think it's unclear at this very early point on how the ball-handling / guard distribution roles will play out. We certainly have the makings of strong 3-guard lineups to go with balanced forward lineups. What I am taking from the early play, recognizing it's early, is that we've got a lot of reason to be optimistic about our developing guard play -- we haven't even had Al healthy, Rob looks very good early, and Green, minimally, should bring strong scoring from the backcourt. 

With green I just see a lot of bad shot selection and not playing in the team framework and was looking to get his to much.  Also he was dribbling way to much and not moving the ball.

[jimsorgi]

1 hour ago, rico said:

I would have to look all that stuff up Jim.  

It's interesting to look up .https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/indiana/

There's information to do a more detailed analysis - if I ever have more time, but put together a bit more info on the Knight teams.

[ADegenerate]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

I guess I just don't buy that argument about FT's because a lot of times it is the difference between a win or a loss.  Just take the Pacers the other night where they lost by 4 to the Rockets while shooting under 60% from the line.  You just look at things from the statistical point of views and not from the game viewpoint because free throws are one of the most important things in a game. 

You cherry picked the FT point to suit your narrative in that game. They only shoot 70% for the season and they shot 66% so it was business as usual. FT shooting is not a big deal in todays game. There's really no way to gain an edge in free throws and it's all about edges. It's nba and D1 players shooting wide open shots. Of course they'll all be nearly identical when it's over as a team. 

 

[ephul]

1 hour ago, The Daily Hoosier said:

Here is our Report Card for the game.

https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/chicago-state-at-indiana-the-report-card/

I still think De'Ron is a big liability on defense. There were several occasions where he got lost in defensive rotations/switching, but Chicago State never capitalized/exposed it. Good teams will. And it's not a "speed/quickness" problem. He just gets lost sometimes.

His on ball defense in the post isn't bad at all. But rotating/helping is a big issue. The same thing happened last year before his injury. I hope he is able to fix that. Otherwise, he's a liability defensively.

 

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, ADegenerate said:

You cherry picked the FT point to suit your narrative in that game. They only shoot 70% for the season and they shot 66% so it was business as usual. FT shooting is not a big deal in todays game. There's really no way to gain an edge in free throws and it's all about edges. It's nba and D1 players shooting wide open shots. Of course they'll all be nearly identical when it's over as a team. 

 

Whatever because that is non sense to say free throws don't matter in the game.  See this kind of thinking is why I think analytics is ruining the game because people that have no clue about the game try to make changes because of percentages.  it is funny free throws is one thing that has not changed in the game so why is it so hard for kids today to hit them.  it must be that they or the coaches don't work on it enough to get good at it.  Ask Syracuse fans if they don't think shooting free throws well hurt them in the 87 championship game where they lost by one point.  Ask Memphis fans about free throw shooting costing them a championship in 08.

[dgambill]

35 minutes ago, The Daily Hoosier said:

I thought Miller's post game comments were interesting.  When asked about Green and Phinisee -- he immediately jumped to Durham.  I think you are going to see a lot of balance in the minutes with Green, Rob and Al, which should keep them all fresh and active.  I like all three players and think that approach has a lot of potential.

Agreed. I don't think Green is going to get the heavy minutes people were thinking....nor what he would probably like. I can easily see if he doesn't step up his game in a major way (and he can don't get me wrong) the thought of losing more minutes next year to a seasoned Robert and Al I can easily seeing him looking to move on to greener pastures where he can play his untamed self.

[dgambill]

3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Whatever because that is non sense to say free throws don't matter in the game.  See this kind of thinking is why I think analytics is ruining the game because people that have no clue about the game try to make changes because of percentages.  it is funny free throws is one thing that has not changed in the game so why is it so hard for kids today to hit them.  it must be that they or the coaches don't work on it enough to get good at it.  Ask Syracuse fans if they don't think shooting free throws well hurt them in the 87 championship game where they lost by one point.  Ask Memphis fans about free throw shooting costing them a championship in 08.

I agree it's important. People also forget that getting fouled controls the tempo of the game. Opponents can't get out in transition, you get uncontested free points (should), and most importantly you get players in foul trouble. You want to stop Steph Curry from bombing 3's. You attack him off the dribble and get him in foul trouble. Once he does it either becomes a lay up line or he has to sit...and even he can't hit corner 3's while sitting on the bench. My opinion aggressive teams usually win more ball games than not. Of course scoring from the line is a big deal...had UK hit their free throws against KState they win that game last year....you have to make the team pay. If you are going 1-2 or 3-5 etc you are giving up too many points.