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Chicago State Postgame Thread


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4 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Whatever because that is non sense to say free throws don't matter in the game.  See this kind of thinking is why I think analytics is ruining the game because people that have no clue about the game try to make changes because of percentages.  it is funny free throws is one thing that has not changed in the game so why is it so hard for kids today to hit them.  it must be that they or the coaches don't work on it enough to get good at it.  Ask Syracuse fans if they don't think shooting free throws well hurt them in the 87 championship game where they lost by one point.  Ask Memphis fans about free throw shooting costing them a championship in 08.

You're assuming that I have no clue about the game because I evolved the way I look at things. I'm not even good at math or even enjoy it really, but it tells you the truth whether you like it or not. It's a supplement that can either back up or deny what you think you know. This isn't 1945 where the squad shoots free throws and runs lines in practice all day long because Chuck Wilson and Bob Hazleton both missed two late free throws and the squad lost by a point 33-32. There's bigger things to worry about. 

My last post on the subject because we can bicker for hours and hours lol 

I appreciate your view on the game, mine is different though.

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2 minutes ago, ADegenerate said:

You're assuming that I have no clue about the game because I evolved the way I look at things. I'm not even good at math or even enjoy it really, but it tells you the truth whether you like it or not. It's a supplement that can either back up or deny what you think you know. This isn't 1945 where the squad shoots free throws and runs lines in practice all day long because Chuck Wilson and Bob Hazleton both missed two late free throws and the squad lost by a point 33-32. There's bigger things to worry about. 

My last post on the subject because we can bicker for hours and hours lol 

I appreciate your view on the game, mine is different though.

Well maybe they should go back to some old school stuff since it use to work.  Also I wasn't really talking about you not knowing the game but the nerds that came up with all of these made up stats.  These games are played by human beings and watched by humans so I don't need a computer to tell me what is important and what is not.

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I really like the idea of some platoons. We saw a little last night.

Rob and Romeo with Al and Green as the second wave. Al is steady with the ball and Green can replace some of Romeo's scoring when he is on the bench.

Smith and Morgan replaced with Evan and De'Ron. Evan helps to space the floor when De'Ron is in and De'Ron should feast on back up bigs and be a focal point of the second unit.

Zach at the 3 replaced by Hunter. 

Add some spot minutes for Damezi and Race/ Jake and I think you have a winning formula.

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6 minutes ago, dgambill said:

I agree it's important. People also forget that getting fouled controls the tempo of the game. Opponents can't get out in transition, you get uncontested free points (should), and most importantly you get players in foul trouble. You want to stop Steph Curry from bombing 3's. You attack him off the dribble and get him in foul trouble. Once he does it either becomes a lay up line or he has to sit...and even he can't hit corner 3's while sitting on the bench. My opinion aggressive teams usually win more ball games than not. Of course scoring from the line is a big deal...had UK hit their free throws against KState they win that game last year....you have to make the team pay. If you are going 1-2 or 3-5 etc you are giving up too many points.

I don't think you understand the point of what I'm saying (not being a jerk because I understand hat you're saying). Under these scenarios where these people and teams are missing these so called important FT's you're applying unrealistic expectations on the player. You're agitated because he's missing shots when the game is at a high pressure point (general scenario in what your point is trying to make). It's nothing to do with the player, it's sheer randomness that you believe shouldn't be random. IMO you're placing false importance on it. They make more than they miss so when they miss it feels like a mistake when in reality it's not. It's fatigue and randomness. You just did the same thing scott tried to do. Call the game a loss on the ft's when that isn't true.

 Kentucky shot the same % as Kansas st did (which is exactly the point I'm making there's no edge in shooting free throws so no need to care or worry about it) and uk basically shot the same that they shot all season. It had absolutely nothing to do with FT's. They lost because they shot 25% on threes and kstate shot 40%. You just remember the FT misses because they shot so many of them. 

 

Three's is our problem, not ft's. 

 

I'm out boys. Errands to run. 

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10 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Well maybe they should go back to some old school stuff since it use to work.  Also I wasn't really talking about you not knowing the game but the nerds that came up with all of these made up stats.  These games are played by human beings and watched by humans so I don't need a computer to tell me what is important and what is not.

I agree with you about coming back to old school stuff...they will. Right now it's all three's and layups. Defenses will figure out how to negate that and then we'll start getting the new stuff. Basketball is great man. It's fine. 

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49 minutes ago, ephul said:

I still think De'Ron is a big liability on defense. There were several occasions where he got lost in defensive rotations/switching, but Chicago State never capitalized/exposed it. Good teams will. And it's not a "speed/quickness" problem. He just gets lost sometimes.

His on ball defense in the post isn't bad at all. But rotating/helping is a big issue. The same thing happened last year before his injury. I hope he is able to fix that. Otherwise, he's a liability defensively.

 

I am sure you are right that he is missing rotations and help -- but his speed and quickness is an issue too.  I have no idea why they are having him hedge ball screens out on the perimeter.  He is nowhere near fast enough to recover right now, or maybe ever.

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6 minutes ago, ADegenerate said:

I agree with you about coming back to old school stuff...they will. Right now it's all three's and layups. Defenses will figure out how to negate that and then we'll start getting the new stuff. Basketball is great man. It's fine. 

Could be better if would just work on the simple stuff like free throws and fundamentals

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30 minutes ago, ADegenerate said:

You're assuming that I have no clue about the game because I evolved the way I look at things. I'm not even good at math or even enjoy it really, but it tells you the truth whether you like it or not. It's a supplement that can either back up or deny what you think you know. This isn't 1945 where the squad shoots free throws and runs lines in practice all day long because Chuck Wilson and Bob Hazleton both missed two late free throws and the squad lost by a point 33-32. There's bigger things to worry about. 

My last post on the subject because we can bicker for hours and hours lol 

I appreciate your view on the game, mine is different though.

:coffee:  Despite having a roster of 28 players (talk about oversigning!), I could find no evidence of Chuck Wilson or Bob Hazleton even being on the '44-'45 team, let alone missing clutch free throws.  Nor did any game end in a 33-32 score.

It was a down year for the Hoosiers, especially in conference play.  However, the non-conference season did include a couple of impressive wins against Camp Atterbury, although rumor has it that those did hurt our strength of schedule a bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1944–45_Indiana_Hoosiers_men's_basketball_team

 

 

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I have always hated poor FT shooting, but it seems players just aren't as good at it as in the past.  Most of our misses didn't seem to be because of bad technique, with maybe Davis being the exception.  His shots were really short, so maybe it was fatigue, but I'd have thought that during his recovery he would have been able to spend a lot of time practicing FT's.  I think Davis will make some really good contributions this season.

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2 hours ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Why wouldn’t we play McRoberts starter minutes?  He’s once again our best perimeter defender, and he looks a lot more confident shooting the ball now.  Led the team in +/- last night.  He’s going to be one of our most important players this season — definitely going be top 5 in minutes played.

I’d rather have Romeo jacking all those shots than Green.  4 turnovers to 3 assists also isn’t what we need from our PG.  At this point, I don’t see him taking the starting role back from Phinisee this season — like you said, I think he will be best playing off-ball.  He did look great on defense last night though.

i think McRoberts certainly has an important role.  i just don't know that he needs to play the minutes Morgan, Langford, or Smith play.  personally i'd probably rather Fitzner and either Green or Phin play more minutes as well.  

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2 hours ago, ephul said:

I still think De'Ron is a big liability on defense. There were several occasions where he got lost in defensive rotations/switching, but Chicago State never capitalized/exposed it. Good teams will. And it's not a "speed/quickness" problem. He just gets lost sometimes.

His on ball defense in the post isn't bad at all. But rotating/helping is a big issue. The same thing happened last year before his injury. I hope he is able to fix that. Otherwise, he's a liability defensively.

 

this is actually one of the things i really like about this roster.  depending on who we are playing, there may be a good role for Davis in some games, but in others he may be a liability.  i think that may be the case for a handful of players.  we have the depth to figure out what players should play more or less against different teams.

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2 hours ago, The Daily Hoosier said:

I thought Miller's post game comments were interesting.  When asked about Green and Phinisee -- he immediately jumped to Durham.  I think you are going to see a lot of balance in the minutes with Green, Rob and Al, which should keep them all fresh and active.  I like all three players and think that approach has a lot of potential.

100% agreed. Per all reports, Al had a really good summer, has improved his shooting, and has earned his teammates' respect. I think he will impress, once healthy again. On Rob, he is looking really good, I am very high on him on what he's shown, but it's usually the case that a frosh, particularly a frosh point. takes a step back / hits the frosh wall / falters at some point. All 3 are going to contribute well.

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1 hour ago, Zuckerkorn said:

I have always hated poor FT shooting, but it seems players just aren't as good at it as in the past.  Most of our misses didn't seem to be because of bad technique, with maybe Davis being the exception.  His shots were really short, so maybe it was fatigue, but I'd have thought that during his recovery he would have been able to spend a lot of time practicing FT's.  I think Davis will make some really good contributions this season.

Interestingly (I'll try to find a source on this later), free throw shooting is essentially unchanged over the last 45 years (NCAA total average hovers a bit under 70% every year).  Three point shooting has obviously improved tremendously, so it's notable that free throw shooting hasn't.

 

I have to speculate that part of the reason is that (to degenerate's point) free throw shooting is less important that free throw rate and three point shooting. Obviously, free throw shooting matters, and the marginal gains are material, but I think most teams put more focus on other aspects of the game that make a bigger impact.

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2 hours ago, IU Scott said:

With green I just see a lot of bad shot selection and not playing in the team framework and was looking to get his to much.  Also he was dribbling way to much and not moving the ball.

He did dribble too much, but he also played some fantastic on ball defense.  At times, he made it difficult to get off a pass, much less a shot.  I think he will have a role going forward.

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14 minutes ago, jimsorgi said:

Interestingly (I'll try to find a source on this later), free throw shooting is essentially unchanged over the last 45 years (NCAA total average hovers a bit under 70% every year).  Three point shooting has obviously improved tremendously, so it's notable that free throw shooting hasn't.

 

I have to speculate that part of the reason is that (to degenerate's point) free throw shooting is less important that free throw rate and three point shooting. Obviously, free throw shooting matters, and the marginal gains are material, but I think most teams put more focus on other aspects of the game that make a bigger impact.

Very much a part of the point I was making. A team shooting 67% is not leaving much on the table playing a team that shoots 71-72% but a team that shoots the three ball at 32% and doesn't shoot many doesn't really stand a chance vs an equal opponent. There's been the talk of free throws but I don't see many people talking about the fact that we couldn't shoot it, we didn't shoot it, and everyone is always getting better in this arena. It's a serious concern of mine. Obviously I'm relaxed, it's year 2, game 2 but it is a potential problem. 700+ and 35% would more than satisfy me.

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2 hours ago, Reacher said:

I really like the idea of some platoons. We saw a little last night.

Rob and Romeo with Al and Green as the second wave. Al is steady with the ball and Green can replace some of Romeo's scoring when he is on the bench.

Smith and Morgan replaced with Evan and De'Ron. Evan helps to space the floor when De'Ron is in and De'Ron should feast on back up bigs and be a focal point of the second unit.

Zach at the 3 replaced by Hunter. 

Add some spot minutes for Damezi and Race/ Jake and I think you have a winning formula.

I think we're going to see a lot of 3-guard minutes where you have Rob-Langford-Green/Durham (depending on who is playing better) playing together. It's just one game, but because I haven't seen him that much, I was really surprised at how good of a passer/playmaker Langford is. I also wouldn't mind seeing him get some minutes as the primary ball-handler ala James Harden (with less dribbling and more passing). That would be a piece of his game that would be really valuable to IU this season and his draft prospects. 

I'm not so sure the Fitzner/Davis combo will be a big part of the season. That tandem will expose IU in a pretty big way defensively once we start playing better competition. There's just not a lot of athleticism and lateral movement with those two. I literally have no idea how good Race Thompson is, but if he can have the impact you'd expect out of a top 100 redshirt player, then I think he'd probably take most of Davis' minutes in that combo. 

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I actually like the tandem of Davis working the rim, and Fitzner working the arc.  Both working to their strengths, means the D can't collapse on either one. Plus the fact that both are good passers, and will be able to hit the other man when uncovered, or an open man, either in the lane or on the arc.

The scary thing, I think for other teams is that IU right now is playing without not one, not two, but three rotation players.  The combinations Archie has is unbelievable. 

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

I think we're going to see a lot of 3-guard minutes where you have Rob-Langford-Green/Durham (depending on who is playing better) playing together. It's just one game, but because I haven't seen him that much, I was really surprised at how good of a passer/playmaker Langford is. I also wouldn't mind seeing him get some minutes as the primary ball-handler ala James Harden (with less dribbling and more passing). That would be a piece of his game that would be really valuable to IU this season and his draft prospects. 

I'm not so sure the Fitzner/Davis combo will be a big part of the season. That tandem will expose IU in a pretty big way defensively once we start playing better competition. There's just not a lot of athleticism and lateral movement with those two. I literally have no idea how good Race Thompson is, but if he can have the impact you'd expect out of a top 100 redshirt player, then I think he'd probably take most of Davis' minutes in that combo. 

I agree that there will be matchups where we go with 3 guards but seeing as we only have 4 scholarship guards and a plethora of wings/ bigs think those times will be necessarily limited.

I was thinking last night that Romeo could very well play the point in a big lineup if CAM wanted to go that route.

I wouldn't say the Fitzner / Davis  combo would be a big part of the season but don't see why you couldn't get away with it for 5 minutes per half.

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5 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

I actually like the tandem of Davis working the rim, and Fitzner working the arc.  Both working to their strengths, means the D can't collapse on either one. Plus the fact that both are good passers, and will be able to hit the other man when uncovered, or an open man, either in the lane or on the arc.

The scary thing, I think for other teams is that IU right now is playing without not one, not two, but three rotation players.  The combinations Archie has is unbelievable. 

This is the part I'll be interested in following. If we are constantly throwing the same 6-7 guys out there it makes it easier on opponents staff to prep their team defensively. If we are changing up (as long as it's productive) all game long it keeps other teams thinking for different players strengths,etc...will keep our guys fresh and opponents guessing. At least that's my hope.

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15 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

This is the part I'll be interested in following. If we are constantly throwing the same 6-7 guys out there it makes it easier on opponents staff to prep their team defensively. If we are changing up (as long as it's productive) all game long it keeps other teams thinking for different players strengths,etc...will keep our guys fresh and opponents guessing. At least that's my hope.

I completely agree with you.  Just one more example.  Last season, McRoberts earned playing time due to his defensive capabilities.  But would pass up wide open looks on offense.  Which caused other teams not only to  have to prepare for him, but not even cover him in a game. Even though McRoberts can shoot the rock.  I said a week or so back, if I were coach.... the one thing I would be telling Zack this season would be : "See the shot, take the shot".  And so far he has.  Which means other teams can't leave Zack open like last year, which means that will open up opportunities for other of our guys when Zack is on the court. 

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1 hour ago, Reacher said:

I agree that there will be matchups where we go with 3 guards but seeing as we only have 4 scholarship guards and a plethora of wings/ bigs think those times will be necessarily limited.

I was thinking last night that Romeo could very well play the point in a big lineup if CAM wanted to go that route.

I wouldn't say the Fitzner / Davis  combo would be a big part of the season but don't see why you couldn't get away with it for 5 minutes per half.

Depends on the opponent. If you're playing a team that is a really good shooting team and/or has athletes all over the floor, then I wouldn't play Fitz/Davis together. Especially against a shooting team, a close game can get to down 10-12 in 5 minutes. I just think any good coach with a good shooting team would really take advantage of a lineup with those two in together.

Caveat, this is all off me seeing Fitz play one time. I'm a big fan of his and think he's going to play a key role this season, but do think his lateral quickness could be an issue defensively at times, and we know that's already an issue for Davis.  

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5 hours ago, 5fouls said:

:coffee:  Despite having a roster of 28 players (talk about oversigning!), I could find no evidence of Chuck Wilson or Bob Hazleton even being on the '44-'45 team, let alone missing clutch free throws.  Nor did any game end in a 33-32 score.

It was a down year for the Hoosiers, especially in conference play.  However, the non-conference season did include a couple of impressive wins against Camp Atterbury, although rumor has it that those did hurt our strength of schedule a bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1944–45_Indiana_Hoosiers_men's_basketball_team

 

 

Good stuff. Coach Good certainly clamped down the state in recruiting. 

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