The Last of Crean recruited players still on the roster....

[Artesian_86]

I found this very interesting as to how many Crean recruited players are still part if this team. 

1. Juwan Morgan 
2. Al Durham
3. Deron Davis
4. Devonte Green
5. Justin Smith
6. Josh McRoberts
7. Clifton Moore

Some of us have been down on Archie's coaching, lack of player and team toughness and overall team performance. Of the remaining 7 listed, would you see Archie really trying to recruit to fit his style of coaching here at IU?  I only see two and the first is Juwan Morgan. There is no need to convince anyone of that. The second is Josh McRoberts. He is too valuable to sit. Durham is another player is starting to work in Archie's favor.  Davis, could be on Archie's radar, but does not seem to have the motor or grit for an Archie led team. The other three, Green, Smith and Moore.......not even a stiff, in my honest opinion. 

We all have to remember that even though Archie had a great recruiting class this last year, he still has a few descent Crean holdovers to try to fit his agenda for IU. Some of you may agree or disagree, but the prototypical Archie Miller type player is Rob Phinisee! When he finally gets the type of team and players to fit his style it will be a well oiled machine. 

[IUaic]

13 minutes ago, Artesian_86 said:

I found this very interesting as to how many Crean recruited players are still part if this team. 

1. Juwan Morgan 
2. Deron Davis
3. Devonte Green
4. Justin Smith
5. Josh McRoberts

Some of us have been down on Archie's coaching, lack of player and team toughness and overall team performance. Of the remaining 5 listed, would you see Archie really trying to recruit to fit his style of coaching here at IU?  I only see two and the first is Juwan Morgan. There is no need to convince anyone of that. The second is Josh McRoberts. He is too valuable to sit.  Davis, could be on Archie's radar, but does not seem to have the motor or grit for an Archie led team. The other two, Green and Davis.......not even a stiff, in my honest opinion. 

We all have to remember that even though Archie had a great recruiting class this last year, he still has a few descent Crean holdovers to try to fit his agenda for IU. Some of you may agree or disagree, but the prototypical Archie Miller type player is Rob Phinisee! When he finally gets the type of team and players to fit his style it will be a well oiled machine. 

What about Durham and Moore?

[BGleas]

I see you have Smith on the list, but not Durham and Moore. IMO the 2018 class is still Crean’s class. Yes, Archie didn’t have to bring them in , but the mode at that point was just trying to keep things stable and as a mid-major coach he probably didn’t have the relationships to cut bait on those guys and go get a bunch of studs last minute. 

My point is that I think the 2018 class looks much different if Archie had a full year to recruit it. That’s not an excuse for the poor play the last week, just in my opinion the reality in terms of Archie building ‘his’ program. 

[Artesian_86]

19 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I see you have Smith on the list, but not Durham and Moore. IMO the 2018 class is still Crean’s class. Yes, Archie didn’t have to bring them in , but the mode at that point was just trying to keep things stable and as a mid-major coach he probably didn’t have the relationships to cut bait on those guys and go get a bunch of studs last minute. 

My point is that I think the 2018 class looks much different if Archie had a full year to recruit it. That’s not an excuse for the poor play the last week, just in my opinion the reality in terms of Archie building ‘his’ program. 

THanks for reminding me... I forgot about those players. I did finally update it now.

[dwtaylor1055]

Yes Smith/Moore/Durham were heavily(loosely) recruited from Crean, however after Archie met with each of these kids after taking the job and explaining his style of play, plans, future, etc and they still choose to go to IU, they have bought into the system to some intent I would think.  If they did not like what Archie's plans were, they could have decided to go elsewhere as the option was presented to them I believe(could be wrong here).  I still do believe that Moore will be a transfer at seasons end if he doesn't get minutes, especially if TJD chooses IU.   

Archie's first true class is with Romeo, Rob, Hunter, Race and Jake.  Assuming Moore transfers for the 2019-2020 season, that would leave only 4 players that were recruited from Crean, leaving the rest(7 including Franklin and Romeo returning(I think he leaves but I hope I am wrong), but not including TJD or Brooks).  Next year I think you will really see Archie's full style of play take over and exceed even more.  You can see the improvement he did throughout the 2017-2018 season, and it has carried over into this season considering the amount of injuries they have dealt with.  Take away the Duke game(hostile environment, turnovers and foul trouble) this early and have a rematch late late in the season when injuries are not an issue and the outcome is a lot closer.

My summary for the season so far is that I am not really discouraged or disappointed, still highly optimistic.  Yes we lost to Arkansas and was losing to UC Davis in the closing minutes(only with 5 scholarship players playing down the final stretch), however we again were without two key players in Green and McRoberts for the Arkansas game.  If Green and McRoberts play in Arkansas, we win.  Arkansas is a tough arena to play in, it's still nowhere near the level as Cameron or Assembly Hall however for a SEC team its a tough environment to play in.  

I hope we continue to improve, but I fully expect us to finish in the top half of a very crowded yet very good BIG10 conference(kinda surprised by a few teams), we end our woes in the BIG10 tournament and make it to at least the 3rd round, and we enter the big dance no lower than a 6 seed.  It's all about progress(they have improved since Archie has arrived) and IF IU can accomplish these three tasks above, with the assumption TJD and Brooks both choose IU, Hunter returns from his horrible injury(prayers he's able to fully recover not just for basketball but for his every day life in general), watch out because the team will be comfortably in the top 25 next season and even better moving forward. 

[Artesian_86]

39 minutes ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

Yes Smith/Moore/Durham were heavily(loosely) recruited from Crean, however after Archie met with each of these kids after taking the job and explaining his style of play, plans, future, etc and they still choose to go to IU, they have bought into the system to some intent I would think.  If they did not like what Archie's plans were, they could have decided to go elsewhere as the option was presented to them I believe(could be wrong here).  I still do believe that Moore will be a transfer at seasons end if he doesn't get minutes, especially if TJD chooses IU.   

Archie's first true class is with Romeo, Rob, Hunter, Race and Jake.  Assuming Moore transfers for the 2019-2020 season, that would leave only 4 players that were recruited from Crean, leaving the rest(7 including Franklin and Romeo returning(I think he leaves but I hope I am wrong), but not including TJD or Brooks).  Next year I think you will really see Archie's full style of play take over and exceed even more.  You can see the improvement he did throughout the 2017-2018 season, and it has carried over into this season considering the amount of injuries they have dealt with.  Take away the Duke game(hostile environment, turnovers and foul trouble) this early and have a rematch late late in the season when injuries are not an issue and the outcome is a lot closer.

My summary for the season so far is that I am not really discouraged or disappointed, still highly optimistic.  Yes we lost to Arkansas and was losing to UC Davis in the closing minutes(only with 5 scholarship players playing down the final stretch), however we again were without two key players in Green and McRoberts for the Arkansas game.  If Green and McRoberts play in Arkansas, we win.  Arkansas is a tough arena to play in, it's still nowhere near the level as Cameron or Assembly Hall however for a SEC team its a tough environment to play in.  

I hope we continue to improve, but I fully expect us to finish in the top half of a very crowded yet very good BIG10 conference(kinda surprised by a few teams), we end our woes in the BIG10 tournament and make it to at least the 3rd round, and we enter the big dance no lower than a 6 seed.  It's all about progress(they have improved since Archie has arrived) and IF IU can accomplish these three tasks above, with the assumption TJD and Brooks both choose IU, Hunter returns from his horrible injury(prayers he's able to fully recover not just for basketball but for his every day life in general), watch out because the team will be comfortably in the top 25 next season and even better moving forward. 

I get what you are saying, however I am sure that if you are a new coach coming in that you want to keep things somewhat as normal as possible. When players start leaving and backing out on commitments, sometime it sort of puts a cloud of doubt over the school and new coach. Archie was being Archie. Those players were the cards he was dealt at the time.  " I respect your commitment to IU, I want would like for your to give us a chance, but I'm Archie Miller and this is our team now."  

[dwtaylor1055]

8 minutes ago, Artesian_86 said:

I get what you are saying, however I am sure that if you are a new coach coming in that you want to keep things somewhat as normal as possible. When players start leaving and backing out on commitments, sometime it sort of puts a cloud of doubt over the school and new coach. Archie was being Archie. Those players were the cards he was dealt at the time.  " I respect your commitment to IU, I want would like for your to give is a chance, but I'm Archie Miller and this is our team now."  

Yeah good point as that very well could be the case.  Maybe last season was more like you are saying, and as the year progressed he implemented change throughout the season instead of saying up front his plans for the future. 

[Zuckerkorn]

I think one thing that stands out from the original post is the lack of consistent & significant contributors in our sophomore & juniors.  That's two consecutive classes that could be considered "whiffs" compared to our expectations.  Plus, we've only had that consistent play from one of our seniors thus far. 

The good news is that the freshman class appears to have one player that will be a long term answer, another we *think* can be a major contributor (once healthy) and one who is quite good, albeit for likely this season only.  Honestly, that two-year span of not recruiting difference makers has us in the position we're in right now.  I believe Archie can get us there, but unless guys like Smith, Durham, Davis are able to step it up, it will take longer than we had hoped.

I know this is a lot easier said than done, but I'd really like to see us bring in a few players (recruits or grad transfers) that are defined by attitude and not just raw physical talent.  A hard-nosed, refuses to lose player or two might be what's needed to motivate some of our guys.

[FW_Hoosier]

Good post.  I look forward to reading it again in 2019 and 2020.

[addictedtoIU]

Let's not talk about so and so will transfer at end of season. To be honest, I am oftentimes tempted to say that myself, but I try my best to hold it. These are 19-20 year old kids who need more encouragement than harsh criticism. Yes it's inevitable for a fan board like this to talk about players, but I wish we only talk about their performance and games. They're still too young for some people to give up on them. I'm saying this as a parent. 

[cohete15]

I think Devonte gets a bad rap as a player because of his flashy turnovers. Looking beyond SOME of those dumb turnovers, the kid is a gamer. I think he’s a really good defender. He seems to have some really long arms that help him get his hands on the ball more often. Some of that flash he brings turns in to great plays and ignites some energy in the team/stadium. Granted, many may prefer the Rob P style of play, and that’s fair, but you can’t look past some of the positives he brings, and you can’t look past the turnovers that anyone who plays PG will havE.

Overall, Juwan, DeRon, Zach and Devonte bring that energy to the game and seem to want to mix it up with the opponent. They all have their limitations within the game (except for maybe Juwan), but they are upperclassmen with an edge and confidence. Look at the general demeanor of Rob, Romeo and Justin. Nothing wrong with it, but there’s just no apparent killer instinct (I do think Ro has it, just doesn’t show). We need leaders that exude confidence and fight. Again, not saying Rob or Romeo don’t have that, it’s just that 4 of our 5 starters are underclassmen...only 1 of which would start for the upper half of the B1G...and they’re a bit passive in their demeanor.

I think with more Zach and Devonte back, with Juwan and DeRon, this team adopts a bit more of an attitude and the tone of the game is different from tip off. 

I also think we will see Jerome back within 4 weeks 😉

[Hoosierinbham]

1 hour ago, cohete15 said:

I think Devonte gets a bad rap as a player because of his flashy turnovers. Looking beyond SOME of those dumb turnovers, the kid is a gamer. I think he’s a really good defender. He seems to have some really long arms that help him get his hands on the ball more often. Some of that flash he brings turns in to great plays and ignites some energy in the team/stadium. Granted, many may prefer the Rob P style of play, and that’s fair, but you can’t look past some of the positives he brings, and you can’t look past the turnovers that anyone who plays PG will havE.

Overall, Juwan, DeRon, Zach and Devonte bring that energy to the game and seem to want to mix it up with the opponent. They all have their limitations within the game (except for maybe Juwan), but they are upperclassmen with an edge and confidence. Look at the general demeanor of Rob, Romeo and Justin. Nothing wrong with it, but there’s just no apparent killer instinct (I do think Ro has it, just doesn’t show). We need leaders that exude confidence and fight. Again, not saying Rob or Romeo don’t have that, it’s just that 4 of our 5 starters are underclassmen...only 1 of which would start for the upper half of the B1G...and they’re a bit passive in their demeanor.

I think with more Zach and Devonte back, with Juwan and DeRon, this team adopts a bit more of an attitude and the tone of the game is different from tip off. 

I also think we will see Jerome back within 4 weeks 😉

Excellent post.  Devonte can get out of control, but he also has has a solid midrange game and post passing to go along with his swagger. In terms of recruiting,  think if Archie would've allowed McKinley Wright to transfer with him like he wanted. It may have affected us getting Rob, but Wright would've surely changed the outlook last year and this season.

Regarding Jerome, is that wishful thinking or based on inside information? Respect the prior, but hope for the latter.

[FKIM01]

2 hours ago, addictedtoIU said:

Let's not talk about so and so will transfer at end of season. To be honest, I am oftentimes tempted to say that myself, but I try my best to hold it. These are 19-20 year old kids who need more encouragement than harsh criticism. Yes it's inevitable for a fan board like this to talk about players, but I wish we only talk about their performance and games. They're still too young for some people to give up on them. I'm saying this as a parent. 

Thank you...I absolutely detest transfer speculation.  It tells a teenager "We as fans really don't want you in the program."  Say what you want and justify it if you must, but that is exactly what I am reading if I see my name mentioned with transfer speculation as an IU player.  Unless they skip classes or fail drug tests (or something equally stupid), support them while they are here. Period.

NONE of these kids deserve transfer speculation as tempting as it is sometimes.

[cohete15]

24 minutes ago, Hoosierinbham said:

Excellent post.  Devonte can get out of control, but he also has has a solid midrange game and post passing to go along with his swagger. In terms of recruiting,  think if Archie would've allowed McKinley Wright to transfer with him like he wanted. It may have affected us getting Rob, but Wright would've surely changed the outlook last year and this season.

Regarding Jerome, is that wishful thinking or based on inside information? Respect the prior, but hope for the latter.

Inside info, but I’m certainly no regular insider. 

[Hoosierinbham]

55 minutes ago, cohete15 said:

Inside info, but I’m certainly no regular insider. 

Great news. Hope for the best for him. Sounds like he can really help us. 

[BobSaccamanno]

With all respect to the posters above who say to be encouraging, I agree.  However, I see nothing wrong with tough love if the kid isn't meeting his end of the bargain.

Maybe it's the flu I am battling, but I am down on Justin Smith.  I think the "Knight treatment" is what he needs.  It's worse than not having a motor.  He dogged it at times against Duke.  If I were coach, he'd be out for good and I would have played Davis and even McBobs at the four.  That was absolutely ridiculous.  

The Knight treatment would be to sit him on the bench until he shows a strong motor.  

Also, going back to the summer, there have been people down on Davis.  I am not one.  He has not regained his athleticism and conditioning, but this is a kid with incredible natural strength and good skills inside on both ends.  His career has had a series of unfortunate events that have prevented him from being at the top of his game.  

If he can get in shape and regain some above the rim athleticism, and if Hunter comes back, that could be a real boost down the stretch.

[StLHoosier]

12 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

If he can get in shape and regain some above the rim athleticism.....

I think this has been the biggest knock on Deron.  He's not an above the rim type player and never has been.  I do like the effort he brings and the effort he's been playing with this year, but to expect him to regain something he never had, just isn't going to happen.  He can be a fine player though regardless. 

[Hoosierinbham]

3 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

I think this has been the biggest knock on Deron.  He's not an above the rim type player and never has been.  I do like the effort he brings and the effort he's been playing with this year, but to expect him to regain something he never had, just isn't going to happen.  He can be a fine player though regardless. 

Deron has some solid post moves and the bulk to bang with the Nick Wards of the B1G. That's huge during conference play.  Agree on Smith.  Love his potential, and really hope it clicks that he has to bring it every possession. A healthy Mcroberts and the potential return of Hunter will demand that kind of effort to see the floor for any significant minutes.

[addictedtoIU]

16 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

With all respect to the posters above who say to be encouraging, I agree.  However, I see nothing wrong with tough love if the kid isn't meeting his end of the bargain.

Maybe it's the flu I am battling, but I am down on Justin Smith.  I think the "Knight treatment" is what he needs.  It's worse than not having a motor.  He dogged it at times against Duke.  If I were coach, he'd be out for good and I would have played Davis and even McBobs at the four.  That was absolutely ridiculous.  

The Knight treatment would be to sit him on the bench until he shows a strong motor.  

Also, going back to the summer, there have been people down on Davis.  I am not one.  He has not regained his athleticism and conditioning, but this is a kid with incredible natural strength and good skills inside on both ends.  His career has had a series of unfortunate events that have prevented him from being at the top of his game.  

If he can get in shape and regain some above the rim athleticism, and if Hunter comes back, that could be a real boost down the stretch.

Definitely players need tough love, and they should be able to handle constructive criticism especially when they play for a school like IU. Players should know how great privilege it is to play for IU and understand more pressure and greater responsibility comes with it. 

[BobSaccamanno]

55 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

I think this has been the biggest knock on Deron.  He's not an above the rim type player and never has been.  I do like the effort he brings and the effort he's been playing with this year, but to expect him to regain something he never had, just isn't going to happen.  He can be a fine player though regardless. 

He's hardly Antonio McDyess when healthy, but he's literally not above the rim at all right now.  It's like he has a 16 inch vertical or something.  I think he can be a nice player when he gets his wind back and is able to jump and move normally.  

[BGleas]

32 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

He's hardly Antonio McDyess when healthy, but he's literally not above the rim at all right now.  It's like he has a 16 inch vertical or something.  I think he can be a nice player when he gets his wind back and is able to jump and move normally.  

I think StlHoosier's point is that Davis has never been above the rim, even pre-injury. But, I do agree that he can help this season, especially against the Ward's and Wesson's of the Big Ten. While I still don't love his game for how basketball has evolved, he's really exceeded my expectations so far this season and I love how hard he's playing.