Indiana HS hoops

[Steubenhoosier]

40 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Look at this list and convince me that a one class basketball system did not have a big school bias and was good for the sport.

http://www.ihsaa.org/Sports/Boys/Basketball/AllTimeSectionalChampions/tabid/632/Default.aspx#2215776-most-sectional-championships-by-total

 

 

Agree with most of your opinions, Fouls, not this one.

Imo, class basketball is another example of how society has pressured institutions to change, and not for the better.

What value is there to saying you are a champion when 4-5 other schools can say the same? Waters down the award so that it’s meaning is devalued. To me, similar to awarding participation trophies.

Good for podunk HS, and I live in a community where all the surrounding high schools are podunk. Best of a bunch of small schools. Means nothing. The world rewards the best, not the best of the podunks. If small school rises up and beats massive HS, then it’s time to celebrate their accomplishments. If they win a sectional or regional against big schools, great as well. If they can’t overcome the size differences, they learn a great life lesson about how the world works 

[dgambill]

13 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Too lazy to research it, what HS did you attend

Union High School. Dugger IN. We've had some nice basketball over the years. Didn't you say you coached at Linton. Joey Hart was my Freshman coach before he moved on to Shakamak and then to Linton I believe. He has a good young player there by the name of Lincoln Hale (whose dad Marty was a fabulous player in his own right at Dugger). For the size of our school and those surrounding us especially WRV (then named L&M) who had Jeff Ollaphant who played at IU and Tony Patterson who I think went to Purdue...pretty good ball played in that part of the country by farm boys lol at schools with less than a couple hundred boys. It's always about having size at the small school to compete against the big boys. If your lucky you might have one 6'5 kid and most 6-6'1....but sometimes he stars align lol.

[Billingsley99]

11 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Union High School. Dugger IN. We've had some nice basketball over the years. Didn't you say you coached at Linton. Joey Hart was my Freshman coach before he moved on to Shakamak and then to Linton I believe. He has a good young player there by the name of Lincoln Hale (whose dad Marty was a fabulous player in his own right at Dugger). For the size of our school and those surrounding us especially WRV (then named L&M) who had Jeff Ollaphant who played at IU and Tony Patterson who I think went to Purdue...pretty good ball played in that part of the country by farm boys lol at schools with less than a couple hundred boys.

I thought so. Great basketball in that part of the state when I was there. Many schools did not mind playing in the 30's. I coached against 6 D1 players that went to 1A schools. Ton of talent

[dgambill]

6 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

I thought so. Great basketball in that part of the state when I was there. Many schools did not mind playing in the 30's. I coached against 6 D1 players that went to 1A schools. Ton of talent

We didn't play in the 30's and most in our area didn't either...no 4 corners stuff. I know we avg in the high 80's per game and WRV when they had the Graves kids did as well. Don't get me wrong....generally didn't have height to beat those big schools...but many guards etc could hold their own with anyone in the state...and games were exciting. I'm sure it is like that in many other areas too...well used to be. Now the few small schools remain it's hard to schedule because the big schools have gotten even bigger...which I understand is why the class system makes sense....still like the example I used above...an all small school state tournament earlier in the year would be just fine and then at the end...let everyone go at it.

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

The one Cinderella story every 5 years, excites that specific fan base for that one season, but does nothing for the 300 other small schools that annually had no chance against the big schools. 

I have stated many times I was against class basketball but when my nephew played at my old high school between 2004-06 they were very good.  They won 3 straight sectionals and won one regional and lost by 3 in the semi state.  The crowds during that run was as good as it was during the one class system.  We always played our sectionals in New Castle our school won the sectional in 1958 and then not until 1987.  

[TheWatShot]

Another problem I see is that many places aren't doing anything to cultivate interest in younger fans. There are places that charge their own students full price to get into a game. When I was a student, we got into regular season home games free. I can't imagine forking over $5 to get into the same building I walked into every morning for class (And before someone throws out the season pass argument, we didn't need those. Students got in free to every athletic event). If you charge students full price, most of them won't want to go. If they aren't going to games during their teenage years, most of them probably won't go when they're adults.

 

We're seeing the effect of that now. Older fans won't attend forever, and there aren't enough younger people waiting to take their seats.

[milehiiu]

In my mind. And in my car.  I heard you coming through back in "54.  The year when Milan won it all.

Class basketball killed prep basketball in Indiana

[FKIM01]

What I see mostly around me...Small schools really like class basketball.  Big schools don't.  Tell Barr Reeve it's a bad thing and you'll get laughed at.  Their sectional is pretty much a sell-out every year and there's a ton of enthusiasm around those games between Barr-Reeve and their rival Loogootee.

...and they don't consider their tourney wins cheapened because of class basketball.  They enjoy the level playing field.

[rico]

11 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

What I see mostly around me...Small schools really like class basketball.  Big schools don't.  Tell Barr Reeve it's a bad thing and you'll get laughed at.  Their sectional is pretty much a sell-out every year and there's a ton of enthusiasm around those games between Barr-Reeve and their rival Loogootee.

...and they don't consider their tourney wins cheapened because of class basketball.  They enjoy the level playing field.

Well, around me they don't like it.  It has taken most of the rivalries away.  Hell, it has taken them all away.

[Billingsley99]

12 hours ago, dgambill said:

We didn't play in the 30's and most in our area didn't either...no 4 corners stuff. I know we avg in the high 80's per game and WRV when they had the Graves kids did as well. Don't get me wrong....generally didn't have height to beat those big schools...but many guards etc could hold their own with anyone in the state...and games were exciting. I'm sure it is like that in many other areas too...well used to be. Now the few small schools remain it's hard to schedule because the big schools have gotten even bigger...which I understand is why the class system makes sense....still like the example I used above...an all small school state tournament earlier in the year would be just fine and then at the end...let everyone go at it.

You didnt for sure but Bloomfield  north Davies etc did not care as long as they won. I scouted plenty of take the air out of the ball basketball.  It really taught me how to take care of the ball etc..

 

Was not a knock just a style I was not accustomed to.

[5fouls]

5 hours ago, rico said:

Well, around me they don't like it.  It has taken most of the rivalries away.  Hell, it has taken them all away.

How has it taken the rivalries away.  Do the small schools still not play each other in the regular season?  Are they still not in the same sectional?  Or, are you talking about the 1A 'county' school that had a 4A 'city' rival that would beat them 29 out of every 30 years?  

[5fouls]

Look, when Class basketball was first implemented, I though it was a terrible idea.  Then, after a few years, I saw it revitalize some of the small communities down here in the southern part of the state.  Now, a small school that has 17 or 18 regular season wins has a chance for a legit post-season run instead of never making it out of sectional when they were running into Jeffersonville, New Albany, or Floyd Central.  

Sure, a good 1A school can still beat 4A schools, but not the 5-6 times in a row that it takes to get to Indy.  There are small  communities around me that now  have state titles.  Some boys.  Some girls.  They could not be more proud of those teams, but the reality is that those teams would not have won those titles in a single class system.

[3Ballin]

6 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

What I see mostly around me...Small schools really like class basketball.  Big schools don't.  Tell Barr Reeve it's a bad thing and you'll get laughed at.  Their sectional is pretty much a sell-out every year and there's a ton of enthusiasm around those games between Barr-Reeve and their rival Loogootee.

...and they don't consider their tourney wins cheapened because of class basketball.  They enjoy the level playing field.

That's true, but most years those amish boys would beat the breaks (or the amish equivilant.....horse shoes maybe?) off of 80% of shools in the state regardless of how big the school is.  I played at Washington, and while I don't make it back for many games, the Thanksgiving eve game against the Fighting Amish of Barr-Reeve is a must see.  The Hatchet House is always packed and rockin.

[5fouls]

13 minutes ago, 3Ballin said:

That's true, but most years those amish boys would beat the breaks (or the amish equivilant.....horse shoes maybe?) off of 80% of shools in the state regardless of how big the school is.  I played at Washington, and while I don't make it back for many games, the Thanksgiving eve game against the Fighting Amish of Barr-Reeve is a must see.  The Hatchet House is always packed and rockin.

Washington and Barr-Reeve are a perfect example of how rivalries can still thrive.  Washington is 3A and Barr-Reeve is 1A, yet they still play each other every year, right around a holiday, and the game is competitive.  But, it's important to note that Washington is truly not a 'big' school   With approximately 760 students, Washington is certainly bigger than Barr-Reeve (225), but close enough in size for Barr -Reeve to regularly be competitive against.  That would be different story if Barr-Reeve were in a different part of the state where the big schools were really BIG and had 2,000 or more students.  

[Muckraker]

Don't understand why they don't go the extra step and have the class champs play each other to determine an overall champion. 

[PoHoosier]

8 minutes ago, Muckraker said:

Don't understand why they don't go the extra step and have the class champs play each other to determine an overall champion. 

I remember reading some years back that only 1 team would win leaving every other champion with a loss, which didn't feel right as a champion ending the year with an L.

[Muckraker]

4 minutes ago, PoHoosier said:

I remember reading some years back that only 1 team would win leaving every other champion with a loss, which didn't feel right as a champion ending the year with an L.

And how else do you determine who is the best team in the state tourney? Does this mean that if my team wins the conference championship, but loses in the final four, that they should not accept a trophy, or hang a banner for the conference championship?

[3Ballin]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Washington and Barr-Reeve are a perfect example of how rivalries can still thrive.  Washington is 3A and Barr-Reeve is 1A, yet they still play each other every year, right around a holiday, and the game is competitive.  But, it's important to note that Washington is truly not a 'big' school   With approximately 760 students, Washington is certainly bigger than Barr-Reeve (225), but close enough in size for Barr -Reeve to regularly be competitive against.  That would be different story if Barr-Reeve were in a different part of the state where the big schools were really BIG and had 2,000 or more students.  

Oh ya, Washington is no Ben Davis or Warren Central, but I dont think there's been a BR team in the last 20 years that woulda been ran outa the gym by one of the mega schools.  I would even go as far to say they could give La Lu a respectable game.  Now, do I think they would win, probably not.  I dont think it would be an embarassment tho either.  

Obviously that's not the case for ALL smaller schools.  Washington Catholic might not score against the mega or prep schools.  So while I think both sides have valid points, it just is what it is.....but i would like to see a class champ then see them play each other for a state champ.

[PoHoosier]

5 minutes ago, Muckraker said:

And how else do you determine who is the best team in the state tourney? Does this mean that if my team wins the conference championship, but loses in the final four, that they should not accept a trophy, or hang a banner for the conference championship?

Of course not. 

These were the concerns of coaches on the article.  As with college, conference and national titles had different weight.  Each are celebrated.  These were not necessarily my views, but those of coaches, parents and others.

The best is determined by classes and left at that.  Love it or hate it, it's the system in place and it's not likely going to change.  I see strengths to each side of the argument, so I am pretty neutral on this.

[5fouls]

26 minutes ago, PoHoosier said:

I remember reading some years back that only 1 team would win leaving every other champion with a loss, which didn't feel right as a champion ending the year with an L.

I agree with that line of thinking.  It's hard to be considered a 'champ' if you lost your last game.

[13th&Jackson]

27 minutes ago, PoHoosier said:

I remember reading some years back that only 1 team would win leaving every other champion with a loss, which didn't feel right as a champion ending the year with an L.

They did that for the first two years of class basketball. It was called the Tournament of Champions. The first year, Lafayette Central Catholic had a great season and won the 1A title. They then beat 2A Alexandria in game 1 of the ToC. Unfortunately they then lost to 4A Pike 87-44. I don't think anyone felt good about that and the ToC lost support before it really got going.

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, Muckraker said:

Don't understand why they don't go the extra step and have the class champs play each other to determine an overall champion. 

They use to do that but there was no interest in it from the fans

[FKIM01]

1 hour ago, 13th&Jackson said:

They did that for the first two years of class basketball. It was called the Tournament of Champions. The first year, Lafayette Central Catholic had a great season and won the 1A title. They then beat 2A Alexandria in game 1 of the ToC. Unfortunately they then lost to 4A Pike 87-44. I don't think anyone felt good about that and the ToC lost support before it really got going.

Yeah...it was considered a massive flop and discontinued. 

[rico]

4 hours ago, 5fouls said:

How has it taken the rivalries away.  Do the small schools still not play each other in the regular season?  Are they still not in the same sectional?  Or, are you talking about the 1A 'county' school that had a 4A 'city' rival that would beat them 29 out of every 30 years?  

No they are not in the same sectional...to me that was a majority of the rivalries that existed.  And fwiw, in my 4 years of HS, the 4A school never won the sectional.

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, rico said:

No they are not in the same sectional...to me that was a majority of the rivalries that existed.  And fwiw, in my 4 years of HS, the 4A school never won the sectional.

Well in our section at New Castle the host New Castle on all but 2 sectionals from 1980-2002.  I still liked the one class basketball but high school basketball is not dead like some make it out to be.