Shooting

[rico]

7 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

But free throws is more about routine and getting a feel for it so if you practice it then in the game sit should just come natural.  I am sure Archie during practice tries to shoot free throws in game situations.

Nah, the heat of the battle can not be emulated.

[StLHoosier]

16 minutes ago, rico said:

But you can't practice a game situation.

Exactly.  As much as us arm chair athletes love to sit back and say that we would do better, in all honesty we probably wouldn't.  Although most of us played basketball at some level, most (99%) of us have never had to shoot free throws during a high level D1 game, let alone at the end of a hard fought contest.  I'm sure 90% of their struggles is mental.  Shooting free throws in practice versus the heat of battle are two different things. 

[Billingsley99]

It should be something simple and we fans probably all inflate how good we all really were. I am a much better player in my memory than I really was. FT shooting to me is a mystery. You cant simulate it in practice and it's hard to correct when its mental.

At the half way point of his Senior year my son was shooting 57% from 3 and 52% from FT. how do you explain it. It was all mental. In game speed no time to think just pull the trigger at the line there is a lot of time to think and talk yourself out of a make 

[Hoosierhoopster]

^^ This is why the best free throw shooters have a set routine they go through for every free throw -- see Reggie M's routine for example. The same thing, every time. Repetition is for both the mind and muscle memory. There are guys whose hands are just too big making becoming a good FT shooter more difficult (e.g., Shaq), but for most it's mental and yes, there's no exact way to emulate game / end-of-game situations. We always ran things like, have to hit a set number, e.g., 7 of 10 or else (laps, etc.), and competitions for practice jerseys, etc., but a game is a game and practice, well, as Iverson said, we talkin about practice.

[IU Scott]

I just think if a D1 player is talented enough to play at that level they should be able to shoot over 70% from the line.  if they practiced fundamentals like they do working on their vertical or their cross over they would get better at the easy part of the game.

[rico]

3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I just think if a D1 player is talented enough to play at that level they should be able to shoot over 70% from the line.  if they practiced fundamentals like they do working on their vertical or their cross over they would get better at the easy part of the game.

Ummmmm.  Quinn Buckner was a career 55.4% FT shooter in his 4 years at IU.  That is some "old school" stuff right there.

[Hoosierhoopster]

5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I just think if a D1 player is talented enough to play at that level they should be able to shoot over 70% from the line.  if they practiced fundamentals like they do working on their vertical or their cross over they would get better at the easy part of the game.

Scott, there are multiple DI collegiate and NBA / professionals who practice their fundamentals over their entire careers and never become good FT shooters. It's more than just working on your fundamentals, it's mental, etc.

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 minute ago, rico said:

Ummmmm.  Quinn Buckner was a career 55.4% FT shooter in his 4 years at IU.  That is some "old school" stuff right there.

Quinn didn't work on his fundamentals. 

[IU Scott]

16 minutes ago, rico said:

Ummmmm.  Quinn Buckner was a career 55.4% FT shooter in his 4 years at IU.  That is some "old school" stuff right there.

To me that is embarrassing for a player of his caliber to shoot so terribly from the line

[Billingsley99]

FT shooting is 90% mental.  Maybe not 90 but much much more mental than physical.  

Some old washed up has been once said In the game of basketball mental is to physical as 4 is to 1. 😀😀

[IU Scott]

3 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

FT shooting is 90% mental.  Maybe not 90 but much much more mental than physical.  

Some old washed up has been once said In the game of basketball mental is to physical as 4 is to 1. 😀😀

As yogi Berra use to say the game is 90% mental and the other half is physical

[IUFLA]

Buckner was a notoriously bad shooter period. I remember Sports Illustrated was at an IU game vs Wisconsin to put Quinn on the cover and he went like 9-9 or something like that.

[FW_Hoosier]

Any thoughts on the three point shooting? The free throw shooting pretty much is what it is... We’re really just talking ourselves in circles when it comes to that.  

But I thought the three point shooting numbers going back to Archie’s time at Dayton were interesting.  I can think of multiple times already this season where he’s been pissed on the sidelines after Romeo or Damezi pulled up for a three off the dribble... Seems like players aren’t encouraged to let it fly in Archie’s offense.

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 minute ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Any thoughts on the three point shooting? The free throw shooting pretty much is what it is... We’re really just talking ourselves in circles when it comes to that.  

But I thought the three point shooting numbers going back to Archie’s time at Dayton were interesting.  I can think of multiple times already this season where he’s been pissed on the sidelines after Romeo or Damezi pulled up for a three off the dribble... Seems like players aren’t encouraged to let it fly in Archie’s offense.

It bears watching, but I think what you're seeing is situational, CAM has sets and from my vantage point gets frustrated when players act outside of the set. Romeo is not a very good 3-point shooter, and Dem is a frosh who is a good outside shooter but is learning the pace of the game and when to and when not to shoot. 

We clearly need more outside shooting. Fitz's addition was a good one. That he was brought in, specifically to shoot and spread the floor, reflects that CAM is looking to grow the outside game.

[StLHoosier]

1 minute ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Any thoughts on the three point shooting? The free throw shooting pretty much is what it is... We’re really just talking ourselves in circles when it comes to that.  

But I thought the three point shooting numbers going back to Archie’s time at Dayton were interesting.  I can think of multiple times already this season where he’s been pissed on the sidelines after Romeo or Damezi pulled up for a three off the dribble... Seems like players aren’t encouraged to let it fly in Archie’s offense.

I think they're encouraged to let it fly when it's a good shot within the offense.  As you've stated, he has an inside out approach and wants his teams getting to the free throw line.  I think his free throw numbers follow a pretty common distribution in my opinion.  The years that they shot a lot of threes, they had a low percentage.  The years where they didn't take a lot of threes, they had a high percentage.  We just need people to hit the shots when they're open, and so far that hasn't happened at a good clip. 

[FW_Hoosier]

8 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

It bears watching, but I think what you're seeing is situational, CAM has sets and from my vantage point gets frustrated when players act outside of the set. Romeo is not a very good 3-point shooter, and Dem is a frosh who is a good outside shooter but is learning the pace of the game and when to and when not to shoot. 

We clearly need more outside shooting. Fitz's addition was a good one. That he was brought in, specifically to shoot and spread the floor, reflects that CAM is looking to grow the outside game.

This is kind of what I’m getting at... I wonder if it’s a “chicken or the egg” situation.  Does CAM get pissed about those shots because the players are shooting poorly, or are the players shooting poorly because CAM gets pissed about those shots?  We talked a lot last season about how the players looked hesitant and unsure of themselves in the offense, and how that might have led to our three point shooting woes.  

Obviously those problems have continued into this season, and I wonder if CAM’s strict management of the offense might make it difficult for our shooters to get into a rhythm.  But I also agree that the lack of pure shooters on the roster is a contributing factor as well.

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said:

This is kind of what I’m getting at... I wonder if it’s a “chicken or the egg” situation.  Does CAM get pissed about those shots because the players are shooting poorly, or are the players shooting poorly because CAM gets pissed about those shots?  We talked a lot last season about how the players looked hesitant and unsure of themselves in the offense, and how that might have led to our three point shooting woes.  

Obviously those problems have continued into this season, and I wonder if CAM’s strict management of the offense might make it difficult for our shooters to get into a rhythm.  But I also agree that the lack of pure shooters on the roster is a contributing factor as well.

The players are shooting poorly because we don't have great shooters on the team. It's that simple, it's not because Archie got mad at a couple of random bad shots. There is no JBJ on this team. There is no Zeisloft, There is no Christian Watford. There's no Jordan Hulls.

Fitzner is the only 'shooter' on the team and he's pretty much just a catch and shoot guy. You have to have a few great shooters to be a really good shooting team, and this roster doesn't have that, and at this point next years probably won't either. 

[zerawkid]

4 hours ago, StLHoosier said:

This is a two way street.  How many did they miss?

Edit: We shot 10-15, and they shot 11-19. 

Oh, for sure.

However, we can only control our free throw shooting. Ironically, one of our two losses, and the one that was by a single point, and it was on an evening we shift better than our season average from the line. 

The beauty of basketball, SO many facets effect the outcome, generally.

[IU Scott]

I see some say that making a higher percentage of your free throws really doesn't influence the game that much.  Some say that out of 20 free throws the difference in 65% compared to 80% is 3 shots and that is right.  The problem with that is if you go 13-20 how many of those 7 misses were front end of one and one. Say 4 of them were the front end so that is really giving up a chance for 8 more points

[KoB2011]

23 hours ago, StLHoosier said:

To quote you, “I’m not going to answer your question until you answer mine.”  I’m talking about percentages.  What percentage would you like them to shoot?

Mid 70s. It isn't too much to ask a team to shoot in the top 50 in free throw percentage. 

[Leathernecks]

Here are some numbers I put together last year with all of our returners.  I think it is too simple to say we just don't have good shooters.  Almost all of our shooting stats for returners were worse last year than they were the year before.  I don't know if it is that shooting isn't being emphasized, if shooters are being hesitant, or what it might be, but shooting is one of my big concerns of last year and this year. I haven't had time to do the same thing for this year, but it is something I want to get around to at some point.

[rico]

10 hours ago, IU Scott said:

To me that is embarrassing for a player of his caliber to shoot so terribly from the line

Oh really?  Buckner is in rarified air.  How many guys can say they won a state title, a NCAA title, a NBA title, and an Olympic gold?  I don't think he is embarrassed at all because of his FT shooting.

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, Leathernecks said:

Here are some numbers I put together last year with all of our returners.  I think it is too simple to say we just don't have good shooters.  Almost all of our shooting stats for returners were worse last year than they were the year before.  I don't know if it is that shooting isn't being emphasized, if shooters are being hesitant, or what it might be, but shooting is one of my big concerns of last year and this year. I haven't had time to do the same thing for this year, but it is something I want to get around to at some point.

Those returners aren’t really good shooters though, and they were playing on a less talented team. Streaky, average shooters are going to shoot worse when less talent is around them. 

Outside of Fitzner, there’s nobody on this roster that is a pure shooter. There’s nobody even remotely like JBJ, Zeisloft, Hulls, Watford, Roth, etc. 

Name one guy on this team that worries you as a shooter if you’re an opposing coach? Other than Fitzner, my entire game plan would be to sag in defensively and make IU hit three’s. 

[3Ballin]

Leaked footage of CAM leading the team out of the locker room for practice today....

[Leathernecks]

9 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Those returners aren’t really good shooters though, and they were playing on a less talented team. Streaky, average shooters are going to shoot worse when less talent is around them. 

Outside of Fitzner, there’s nobody on this roster that is a pure shooter. There’s nobody even remotely like JBJ, Zeisloft, Hulls, Watford, Roth, etc. 

Name on guy on this team that worries you as a shooter if you’re an opposing coach? Other than Fitzner, my entire game plan would be to sag in defensively and make IU hit three’s. 

Less talented team?  It isn't like we were a 25 win team the year before, and there was all kind of drama and poor chemistry due to the noise surrounding Crean.  That year I compared it to was a dumpster fire of a team the last 2/3 of the season.

I don't care if they're shooters or not.  They almost all regressed from the last year of Crean to the first year of Miller.  Maybe it will be a trend and maybe it won't be, but for a coach that stresses good shots, that isn't a good sign no matter how people want to spin it.  Not saying it will continue or become a theme throughout his tenure, but it is a clear concern of mine at this point in time.  Hopefully I get proven wrong.