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Phinisee's Finish


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18 hours ago, slojoe said:

I'm not seeing that he might be an NBA player.  Yogi was much better at this point in his career though he improved greatly after that.

Better how?  Not statistically, if you read Daily Hoosier's article.  Just wondered how you mean better?  😃

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30 minutes ago, jv1972iu said:

Better how?  Not statistically, if you read Daily Hoosier's article.  Just wondered how you mean better?  😃

I didn't read the article or the stats, but it would not change my mind.  The context is important.  Yogi came into a situation where IU was #1 preseason to start along with 4 other players that had established their roles and there was already a lot of scoring there.  A much different situation for RP.  Yogi was a McDonald's AA and in top 2 or 3 at PG(though his class not a real good one for PGs).  He had led a small but well-coached and talented line up to multiple state finals and won 1 or 2.  RP had HS accomplishments not to be sneezed at, but not in Yogi's league.  Now I'm not saying that rankings, press clippings, etc. are always right or the measure of the player, but they must be considered especially when the stats may not tell the whole tale.

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3 minutes ago, slojoe said:

I didn't read the article or the stats, but it would not change my mind.  The context is important.  Yogi came into a situation where IU was #1 preseason to start along with 4 other players that had established their roles and there was already a lot of scoring there.  A much different situation for RP.  Yogi was a McDonald's AA and in top 2 or 3 at PG(though his class not a real good one for PGs).  He had led a small but well-coached and talented line up to multiple state finals and won 1 or 2.  RP had HS accomplishments not to be sneezed at, but not in Yogi's league.  Now I'm not saying that rankings, press clippings, etc. are always right or the measure of the player, but they must be considered especially when the stats may not tell the whole tale.

Yogi came in with boatloads of talent, no doubt. I'm one who keeps saying "it's early," because it is -- very early to draw any real conclusions. 

However, as talented as Yogi was, his frosh and into his soph season he was not good on his decision-making with the ball.

He routinely ran into traffic and left his feet before knowing where he wanted to dish -- he was relying largely on his elite quickness, and had not developed good college floor vision. His TO's were often "unforced." It took him a good season - plus to develop into a heady point.

That's worth noting in this context, because Yogi's ranking (5 star, 19 on rivals, 24th espn, etc.) was based largely on his "true point" talent. The espn scouting report back then is kind of interesting: 

Strengths:
Ferrell is a true point guard that has good strength for his size. He pushes the ball on the break and has the ability to get to the rim. He constantly probed the defense and penetrated looking for openings to make a play. Ferrell can also drive draw and kick and display his excellent court vision. Ferrell has an excellent mid range game and can hit open threes when he is in a groove although streaky. He competes and plays with toughness on both ends of the floor especially on defense where he applies good ball pressure.

Weaknesses:
Ferrell must continue to add strength. Also at times he will leave his feet to pass which makes him charge and turnover prone. He also can get sped up under full court pressure. Being a consistent three point shooter gives Ferrell another area to improve in.

Bottom Line:
A highly competitive lead guard with a tremendous mid range game. Ferrell can score the ball at anytime and his point guard IQ has continued to improve. He can handle, pass and set up the offense. Great upside.

As early as it is, I think it's fair to say that so far Rob's floor vision -- at the college level -- is clearly better than Yogi's was, at the same stage. He is playing better as a true point, so far. That, I think, stands out to people. 

I actually really like that Espn scouting report, it proved largely true -- Yogi got a lot stronger and that helped his game out a lot, because his game is based on attacking and probing and quickness without the height, and he had to continue to develop his "point guard IQ." He obviously did that too, by his junior season he was a really heady point. 

So for interest, here's the Espn scouting report on Rob (Espn scouting reports range in quality depending on the ranker, but some of them are very good):

Strengths:
Robert is about as solid as they come for a high school point guard. He is a good passer and has a good basketball IQ. He has a good feel for the game and his position. He is a solid athlete that can create to score himself or to set up a teammate. Robert is a capable shooter with range to 20 feet. He seems to understand defensive concepts and shows the ability to be a capable leader on and off the court.

Weaknesses:
Phinisee is below average size for a High Major point guard and does not have elite level athleticism. He is a good athlete and it should not be a major obstacle but does keep him from being an elite level prospect. He can struggle some versus large or super quick guards. He also needs to improve the consistency of his shooting. It is not bad but he needs to improve in order to become a consistent threat at the next level.

Bottom Line:
Robert is a good get for Indiana. He is a solid player and should have a good four year career in Bloomington.

Much of that looks really dead on -- a very solid point / good passer with good bball IQ, good feel for the game and a solid but not elite athlete who needs to develop a consistent outside shot -- many here are seeing the same things, so far. 

However, whether he's a "4-year" point guard or a guy who moves himself up with developed shooting and a crafty point guard game (Burke etc. -- ranked outside the top 100) remains to be seen. 

Regardless, it very much looks like we have a very solid point guard to run our O.

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57 minutes ago, slojoe said:

I didn't read the article or the stats, but it would not change my mind.  The context is important.  Yogi came into a situation where IU was #1 preseason to start along with 4 other players that had established their roles and there was already a lot of scoring there.  A much different situation for RP.  Yogi was a McDonald's AA and in top 2 or 3 at PG(though his class not a real good one for PGs).  He had led a small but well-coached and talented line up to multiple state finals and won 1 or 2.  RP had HS accomplishments not to be sneezed at, but not in Yogi's league.  Now I'm not saying that rankings, press clippings, etc. are always right or the measure of the player, but they must be considered especially when the stats may not tell the whole tale.

I thought we were talking about college not high school.  If you had looked at the numbers, you would see that Phinisee is having a better year overall so far.  RP is shooting the ball better and playing a considerably higher level of defense.  Yogi did have more assists, but he was on a pretty loaded team.  Yogi will always be a beloved member of Hoosier Nation, but it's not wrong to say someone is having a better year as a freshman, compared to Yogi's freshman year (so far).  In the end, it just shows that RP is playing pretty well, and if he keeps improving, he's going to be really, really good.

 

Phinisee-Ferrell.jpg?resize=810%2C108&ss

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19 hours ago, The Daily Hoosier said:

I think you have to get Fitzner out there to see if he is going to knock down shots, but if not, it looks like we have another option.  Game flow considerations might matter too.  Moore is obviously the more elite shot blocker of the two and could be really valuable against teams that emphasize attacking the rim.  I used to be nervous about Moore because he was, well, nervous, but lately Fitzner has had that nervous/uncomfortable look to him against teams that speed you up.

Agreed. Fitz should be the first big off the bench...but honestly his defense and rebounding is subpar. If he can't stretch the defense and provide that spark and is just taking up space out there and not having an impact you have to pull him and at least bring someone in who will bring more energy. Of course if Fitz can get involved in the offense then he is a huge asset but I wouldn't hesitate to bring the hook and get someone else in the game if I feel like we aren't generating momentum.

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1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Yogi came in with boatloads of talent, no doubt. I'm one who keeps saying "it's early," because it is -- very early to draw any real conclusions. 

However, as talented as Yogi was, his frosh and into his soph season he was not good on his decision-making with the ball.

He routinely ran into traffic and left his feet before knowing where he wanted to dish -- he was relying largely on his elite quickness, and had not developed good college floor vision. His TO's were often "unforced." It took him a good season - plus to develop into a heady point.

That's worth noting in this context, because Yogi's ranking (5 star, 19 on rivals, 24th espn, etc.) was based largely on his "true point" talent. The espn scouting report back then is kind of interesting: 

Strengths:
Ferrell is a true point guard that has good strength for his size. He pushes the ball on the break and has the ability to get to the rim. He constantly probed the defense and penetrated looking for openings to make a play. Ferrell can also drive draw and kick and display his excellent court vision. Ferrell has an excellent mid range game and can hit open threes when he is in a groove although streaky. He competes and plays with toughness on both ends of the floor especially on defense where he applies good ball pressure.

Weaknesses:
Ferrell must continue to add strength. Also at times he will leave his feet to pass which makes him charge and turnover prone. He also can get sped up under full court pressure. Being a consistent three point shooter gives Ferrell another area to improve in.

Bottom Line:
A highly competitive lead guard with a tremendous mid range game. Ferrell can score the ball at anytime and his point guard IQ has continued to improve. He can handle, pass and set up the offense. Great upside.

As early as it is, I think it's fair to say that so far Rob's floor vision -- at the college level -- is clearly better than Yogi's was, at the same stage. He is playing better as a true point, so far. That, I think, stands out to people. 

I actually really like that Espn scouting report, it proved largely true -- Yogi got a lot stronger and that helped his game out a lot, because his game is based on attacking and probing and quickness without the height, and he had to continue to develop his "point guard IQ." He obviously did that too, by his junior season he was a really heady point. 

So for interest, here's the Espn scouting report on Rob (Espn scouting reports range in quality depending on the ranker, but some of them are very good):

Strengths:
Robert is about as solid as they come for a high school point guard. He is a good passer and has a good basketball IQ. He has a good feel for the game and his position. He is a solid athlete that can create to score himself or to set up a teammate. Robert is a capable shooter with range to 20 feet. He seems to understand defensive concepts and shows the ability to be a capable leader on and off the court.

Weaknesses:
Phinisee is below average size for a High Major point guard and does not have elite level athleticism. He is a good athlete and it should not be a major obstacle but does keep him from being an elite level prospect. He can struggle some versus large or super quick guards. He also needs to improve the consistency of his shooting. It is not bad but he needs to improve in order to become a consistent threat at the next level.

Bottom Line:
Robert is a good get for Indiana. He is a solid player and should have a good four year career in Bloomington.

Much of that looks really dead on -- a very solid point / good passer with good bball IQ, good feel for the game and a solid but not elite athlete who needs to develop a consistent outside shot -- many here are seeing the same things, so far. 

However, whether he's a "4-year" point guard or a guy who moves himself up with developed shooting and a crafty point guard game (Burke etc. -- ranked outside the top 100) remains to be seen. 

Regardless, it very much looks like we have a very solid point guard to run our O.

Those scouting reports are spot on for both. Interesting because I usually find a lot of inaccuracies or assumptions in them. I think we have an EXCELLENT 4 year pg. Will he achieve what Yogi did....hard to say..his role might be slightly different...Archie runs a completely different system. All I know is I think Robert is the perfect pg for the team we have now. He doesn't take a lot of risks, plays wiser and more composed than most freshman, and is stronger and a decent shooter for a freshman. A great get for us...and considering how Archie runs his offense...wouldn't be surprised if we land another pg in 2020/21 that they could play alongside Robert easily in some circumstances. He is just going to get better and better and is a team first guy.

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2 hours ago, StLHoosier said:

I thought we were talking about college not high school.  If you had looked at the numbers, you would see that Phinisee is having a better year overall so far.  RP is shooting the ball better and playing a considerably higher level of defense.  Yogi did have more assists, but he was on a pretty loaded team.  Yogi will always be a beloved member of Hoosier Nation, but it's not wrong to say someone is having a better year as a freshman, compared to Yogi's freshman year (so far).  In the end, it just shows that RP is playing pretty well, and if he keeps improving, he's going to be really, really good.

 

Phinisee-Ferrell.jpg?resize=810%2C108&ss

 

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11 minutes ago, slojoe said:

So if we don't count HS, then you're down to comparing 9 games at the beginning of the season of their freshmen year with some of the games v. creampuffs.  That's less reliable than including HS.

Curious if you are familiar with how much of a beneficiary Park Tudor was of the class system, since you referenced Yogi's runs through the state tournament.

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2 hours ago, StLHoosier said:

I thought we were talking about college not high school.  If you had looked at the numbers, you would see that Phinisee is having a better year overall so far.  RP is shooting the ball better and playing a considerably higher level of defense.  Yogi did have more assists, but he was on a pretty loaded team.  Yogi will always be a beloved member of Hoosier Nation, but it's not wrong to say someone is having a better year as a freshman, compared to Yogi's freshman year (so far).  In the end, it just shows that RP is playing pretty well, and if he keeps improving, he's going to be really, really good.

 

Phinisee-Ferrell.jpg?resize=810%2C108&ss

I'm not sure there's any way you can't say Rob has started better than Yogi did.  I remember Yogi's transition, especially shooting-wise, was very tough.  He turned into a Hoosier legend but to me, 9 games is a strong enough sample size to say Rob has started better.

As much as I loved Yogi, I hope Rob ends up a better player.  It's certainly possible based on what I've seen.

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31 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

I remember Yogi being a 4 year press breaker, even as a freshman.  Some on this board have called pressing/ speeding this year's team up the blueprint for beating them.  Credit Yogi for being unpressable.   

My recollection of the Crean era is IU barely even being able to inbound the ball against presses. Wasn't it a PSU game at home where we were up 11 and literally couldn't get the ball past half-court against their press for like 3 minutes and lost the game?

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5 minutes ago, BGleas said:

My recollection of the Crean era is IU barely even being able to inbound the ball against presses. Wasn't it a PSU game at home where we were up 11 and literally couldn't get the ball past half-court against their press for like 3 minutes and lost the game?

I might be mistaken but I think that was the game that went so long that we caused Purdue fans to miss the entire first half of their game that was the second part of the double header. Classic.

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10 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I cannot wait to see Rob go against Carsen Edwards. Rob is really good about keeping his man in front of him, and Edwards likes to drive. Should be a good match up. I think the kid will hold his own!

Can you imagine the local one that got away to the hated rival shutdown the PU golden child. CMP getting lots of hate on their board on the RP whiff

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1 hour ago, slojoe said:

So if we don't count HS, then you're down to comparing 9 games at the beginning of the season of their freshmen year with some of the games v. creampuffs.  That's less reliable than including HS.

 

1 hour ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

Curious if you are familiar with how much of a beneficiary Park Tudor was of the class system, since you referenced Yogi's runs through the state tournament.

Like DJ said, I don't think you realize how much of a beneficiary Park Tudor was of the class system.  Also, regardless if they are "creampuffs" of not, RP has played against other D1 kids in the first 9 games.  I think that's more reliable than high school.  Nobody is discrediting what Yogi did for IU, and I love Yogi, but we can look at the stats and compare them objectively. 

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14 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

 

Like DJ said, I don't think you realize how much of a beneficiary Park Tudor was of the class system.  Also, regardless if they are "creampuffs" of not, RP has played against other D1 kids in the first 9 games.  I think that's more reliable than high school.  Nobody is discrediting what Yogi did for IU, and I love Yogi, but we can look at the stats and compare them objectively. 

Maybe I am wrong but the 1st 9 games most years are full of some cupcakes and in Yogis we would not have played any big ten games and for sure not 3 true road games 

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24 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Maybe I am wrong but the 1st 9 games most years are full of some cupcakes and in Yogis we would not have played any big ten games and for sure not 3 true road games 

You are correct on all counts...

His first true road game AND B10 game was at Iowa the last day of 2012 (14th game of the season)

SmartSelect_20181207-140403_Chrome.jpg

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