Butler Postgame Thread

[NCHoosier32]

i do think close wins and losses have a lot to do with coaching.  as a coach, i always question myself if my team loses a game in the 1-6 point range.  that said, i really like that this team has won the close ones other than Arkansas.  t was weird when i saw the post about the great coaches' records in close games though, so hard to figure the validity of that.  i guess those guys have coached a lot of games and a lot of big games against a lot of great teams.  where do we think we'll be tomorrow?  #23 or #24 i guess?  

[FKIM01]

2 hours ago, cohete15 said:

Archie isn't above criticism. I think we have to remember that Archie is still a YOUNG coach who is also still learning. He's still learning how to coach a program with a target on its back. He's competing against much better coaching than he did at Dayton. Can't lose sight that coaches can and do improve as well...especially when you have the self-awareness that Archie has shown in interviews. Crean acted offended, and mad if you ever questioned something he did in the game. Archie is not like that, and many times has agreed, "Yea, we need to do a better job of that" or "As a staff we have to get better". I expect Archie and staff does a lot of self analysis and will get better. 

That said, I am getting a little tired of watching our team be a reactionary one. We seem to go out, let them punch us in the mouth 5 or 6 times to start the game. I'm hoping that is part of Archie learning to coach the team with a target on its back. Part of it could be that our 2 starting guards are both freshmen. Part of it could be that early in games, it's easier for the inferior opponent to hang with our superior players. I am not sure what it is, but I am sure that Archie hates the way we start and is looking for how they can improve there. It has been fixed IN GAME as well because we turn it around and win.

Ultimately, we have a coach who gets us wins when things aren't going well. In the past, if we weren't scoring, we were getting blown out. We have a team that always has their defense to fall back on...defense travels, too. A team that has fight. A team that will continue to improve throughout the year and IMO, a staff that will continue to improve as well. Buckle up.

This is reasonable criticism.  I hope most can see the difference between this and the quotes I nominated. 

[StLHoosier]

1 hour ago, cohete15 said:

Pretty weak on your part to post a PM. You asked for his expertise, and instead of having a pissing match in this thread, he took it where it belonged...a PM. You weren't man enough to handle it via PM because you got owned when he gave you the credentials asked for. Grow up.

Credentials?  I hardly consider running track and being in the military credentials for being a head basketball coach.  That is the topic at hand, no?  Consequently, I don’t consider that getting owned when nothing pertaining to the subject was offered as a rebuttal.  I’m regards to posting the PM, maybe I shouldn’t have done that, but there was nothing personal being shared.  It’s a typical response that I see all of the time when someone asks someone to explain themselves.  They offer all of these “credentials” that doesn’t pertain to anything, and then they say “see, I’m qualified”.  It doesn’t work that way.  This is the last I will speak on the matter, out of respect to the board, but if people think they can just spit vitriol without people questioning them, that’s not going to happen.

[NotIThatLives]

Does anyone have access to the plus minuses?  I have searched about 8 different box scores.  

Thanks

[IUDan93]

It is clear that CAM's team are going to be defensive minded.  To me this means we will have a higher floor than we've had in the past.  As offense improves we will have more comfortable winning margins.  Offense is prone to greater variance from year to year than defense-IMHO.

[NCHoosier32]

honestly, i don't care about the win margins at all.  it's more the eye test and getting the W.  i love the idea of having a program that emphasizes defense again.  my biggest problems with that game were not getting Morgan or Romeo looks early because of Durham and Smith and the lack of execution on that last play to get it to one of those guys cutting or to make a move.  fact that we won makes me say all is okay for now!  team needs to realize that Morgan and Langford need early touches and early looks.  of course i'm Phine with Rob as well.    

[5fouls]

2 hours ago, StLHoosier said:

There’s no need to hide behind a PM for this subject.  I’ll respond to you out here.  This was your response:

AAU ball throughout my youth, 4-year starter and 2-year team captain, gave it all up to run D-1 track at the Air Force Academy and become a Mountain West conference champion. I know what winning programs look like. Since graduating in 2011 I’ve led over 10,000 Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines as a military officer and recently served as the youngest-ever Executive Officer to the 2d Bomb Wing with over 5,800 Airmen and as the Administrative Officer-in-Charge of the Combined Joint Task Force - Horn of Africa in Djibouti. I see what tolerating mediocrity does to teams and organizations and that’s why I criticize so heavily when I see mediocrity. If you want to get personal, we can go there, man. We can go there with personal attacks on life experience. But first I’d ask that you put up your coaching and leadership expertise. 

None of the above states anything about how you would coach or run a set.  That’s what we’re asking from you, and it’s not childish to ask someone to explain themselves.  It’s called trying to learn another persons viewpoint, but I see that you get angry when people question you.  It’s not personal, so quit taking it so personally.

I would like this post, but as a Reds fan, I can"t get past the Cardinal avatar. After UK, the Cards are the team I despise the most.

[milehiiu]

Re: That last play of the game.  Yes.... it was designed to go to Romeo. However, he slipped, which caused him to be out of position to take a quality shot.  Then two wondrous things happened.

1. Green had presence of mind not to follow the plan. seeing Romeo slip.  But held the ball, rather than forcing it to Romeo, per the plan.

2. Rob P. seeing Romeo slip, back filled, behind Romeo who was then acting basically as a screener for Rob.  Green gets the ball to Rob P. instead of Romeo. Rob P has a clear shot, as Butler's defense is hung up on Romeo. And based on ice water in his veins, gained by confidence in draining critical threes in previous games.... Rob P drains the shot for the game winner.

_________________________

An example of BB IQ on the part of two players, equals a hard fought win for IU. 

[5fouls]

Heard after IU beats Central Arkansas 91-2 on Wednesday night.

1) "Archie got owned on that play where the Fighten' Pippens scored". 

2) Why is Justin Smith playing more minutes than Juwan?

3) Damnit, if Archie hadn't taken his foot off the gas, we had free tacos.

[Shooter]

6 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

Re: That last play of the game.  Yes.... it was designed to go to Romeo. However, he slipped, which caused him to be out of position to take a quality shot.  Then two wondrous things happened.

1. Green had presence of mind not to follow the plan. seeing Romeo slip.  But held the ball, rather than forcing it to Romeo, per the plan.

2. Rob P. seeing Romeo slip, back filled, behind Romeo who was then acting basically as a screener for Rob.  Green gets the ball to Rob P. instead of Romeo. Rob P has a clear shot, as Butler's defense is hung up on Romeo. And based on ice water in his veins, gained by confidence in draining critical threes in previous games.... Rob P drains the shot for the game winner.

_________________________

An example of BB IQ on the part of two players, equals a hard fought win for IU. 

Green was put in a tough spot there when Romeo wasn't open, but I can't buy what you're selling. He caught the ball with 8 seconds, dribbled the clock down to 2 seconds while standing 28 feet from the basket, and then passed it to a closely guarded teammate who was even farther from the hoop than he was. Incredible result but let's call it what it was... a completely busted play and Phinisee bailing us out on a prayer.

[Bowhunter]

Happy with the win and Greatful we have a tough coach who demands accountability. My only criticism is our lack of movement and spacing on offense. No coaching credentials here, just 40 years of watching college basketball and as much as I disagree with Coach Knight’s behavior. He was one of the best X’s and O’s Coaches of all time. I was fortunate enough to grow up in his era and I know what good cutting, setting screens, and getting guys open looks like. I wasn’t crazy about the CAM hire because some big names were floating around at the time. I was not a fan of the weave, hand off stuff with Crean and I remembered seeing it at Dayton with CAM. I believe in the long run, recruiting INDIANA inside out will be the key to success. Hopefully this game will get us going!

[zerawkid]

I’d like to request the mods go ahead and remove *any* of the extensive personal interactions above. They are between two individuals, have little to no bearing on the topic, can only serve to potentially rile up others, and frankly, have no place anywhere on this board aside from in PM’s.

Sorry guys, nothing personal against either of you and, absolutely due respect given to your desire to address each other and work it out, it just should not be done on these pages.

[StLHoosier]

38 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I would like this post, but as a Reds fan, I can"t get past the Cardinal avatar. After UK, the Cards are the team I despise the most.

Lol it’s ok fouls, I can understand.  It’s hard being at the bottom of the NL Central.

[Hoosierhoopster]

Ok guys, we’re not here 24-7 but let’s keep the personal stuff in pm’s Thanks 

[bluegrassIU]

1 hour ago, Shooter said:

Green was put in a tough spot there when Romeo wasn't open, but I can't buy what you're selling. He caught the ball with 8 seconds, dribbled the clock down to 2 seconds while standing 28 feet from the basket, and then passed it to a closely guarded teammate who was even farther from the hoop than he was. Incredible result but let's call it what it was... a completely busted play and Phinisee bailing us out on a prayer.

Green had no other options. He picked up his dribble before the play broke down. He picked it up just as Romeo slipped. Then he was stuck. It created a mess of Green, Romeo and both defenders all bottled up together.

With seconds left, the only option was to find a red shirt and hope for a miracle. He had no way to get off his own shot or get it to Romeo.

[Proud2BAHoosier]

The wife and I were out of town, Nashville Tenn. for the week-end. Was only able to watch the last 4 1/2 minutes of the game. Let me say it was pretty exciting to say the least!!

Good win and Morgan was a beast!! Phin had ice water in his veins! I'm sure everyone at the Opryland Hotel could hear me screaming! The Cardiac Kids came through...

[IU Scott]

2 hours ago, Bowhunter said:

Happy with the win and Greatful we have a tough coach who demands accountability. My only criticism is our lack of movement and spacing on offense. No coaching credentials here, just 40 years of watching college basketball and as much as I disagree with Coach Knight’s behavior. He was one of the best X’s and O’s Coaches of all time. I was fortunate enough to grow up in his era and I know what good cutting, setting screens, and getting guys open looks like. I wasn’t crazy about the CAM hire because some big names were floating around at the time. I was not a fan of the weave, hand off stuff with Crean and I remembered seeing it at Dayton with CAM. I believe in the long run, recruiting INDIANA inside out will be the key to success. Hopefully this game will get us going!

Problem is that type of offense we grew up watching no longer exists because it is all ball screens and dribble drive offenses

[btownqb]

11 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Problem is that type of offense we grew up watching no longer exists because it is all ball screens and dribble drive offenses

More skilled players now. Can't help off anyone. HS has evolved to more of that as well. 

[INDenizen]

14 hours ago, Indykev said:

here you go. Fischer's call.

I love when Fisch gets really excited and his speech starts to slur just a little bit. He's the best!

[BADGERVOL]

3 hours ago, cohete15 said:

It’s funny that people think you have to be a coach in order to have knowledge about the sport. I played professional baseball, I’m not a coach...I chose a different career. Does that mean every coach’s knowledge is above me? I beg to differ. I don’t think that anyone is acting like they know more than CAM anyway  

I am not choosing sides. Hell, I haven’t even read any posts about this argument. But I did see one person take something personal to the personal message system...where it belongs. Then, I saw that message get posted publicly. And that is weak and disrespectful. Maybe he’s never coached basketball,  but he has the resume of a higher level athlete and definitely a high level leader. “Show me your X’s and O’s” is such a soft response. That said, it’s much easier to coach from the couch with a pause and rewind button than it is from the bench. 

You are absolutely correct. What your describing is a logical fallacy I believe called “argument from authority.” Basically claiming anyone who isn’t a recognized authority is wrong in comparison to someone who is. That’s pure ignorance. The merits of an argument stand separate from the person stating them. Either the information and argument laid out is reasonable and valid or it isn’t. It isn’t right or wrong based on the perceived authority of the opposing person.

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, BADGERVOL said:

You are absolutely correct. What your describing is a logical fallacy I believe called “argument from authority.” Basically claiming anyone who isn’t a recognized authority is wrong in comparison to someone who is. That’s pure ignorance. The merits of an argument stand separate from the person stating them. Either the information and argument laid out is reasonable and valid or it isn’t. It isn’t right or wrong based on the perceived authority of the opposing person.

I am pretty sure coaches who have devote their lives to the sport they coach knows way more than just people on message boards who have only watched games on TV.  They have watched film for years and have study the game a lot more in detail than does fans.  For fans who actually think they know as much if not more that a coach is being a little full of themselves.

[Drroogh]

17 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I am pretty sure coaches who have devote their lives to the sport they coach knows way more than just people on message boards who have only watched games on TV.  They have watched film for years and have study the game a lot more in detail than does fans.  For fans who actually think they know as much if not more that a coach is being a little full of themselves.

Talking about watching film and knowing more about basketball, suddenly brought flashbacks of GC

[Seeking6]

4 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said:

I have pretty much stopped even looking at the game threads because of the constant negativity. I had also been a member of the Facebook page you mentioned and had to put that on ignore for the same reason 

Some random called me a dbag because I said if Watford goes to Memphis like expected we'll be just fine. I was like...is that what you want your kids to see you post like? Haha..

[Shooter]

1 hour ago, bluegrassIU said:

Green had no other options. He picked up his dribble before the play broke down. He picked it up just as Romeo slipped. Then he was stuck. It created a mess of Green, Romeo and both defenders all bottled up together.

With seconds left, the only option was to find a red shirt and hope for a miracle. He had no way to get off his own shot or get it to Romeo.

Watch it back, he didn't pick up his dribble until he passed to Rob. But yeah, he was in a tough spot. I think he probably should have drove it on his own when he realized Romeo was covered at about 5 seconds. I'm probably being overly critical though, easy for me to say watching it in retrospect. Of course I'm glad it worked out just the way it did.

[bluegrassIU]

Just now, Shooter said:

Watch it back, he didn't pick up his dribble until he passed to Rob. But yeah, he was in a tough spot. I think he probably should have drove it on his own when he realized Romeo was covered at about 5 seconds. I'm probably being overly critical though, easy for me to say watching it in retrospect. Of course I'm glad it worked out just the way it did.

With a name like shooter, of course your first thought was to take your own shot.