Romeo as a shooter

[BADGERVOL]

1 hour ago, FKIM01 said:

...and I disagree with this. Look at Romeo's percentage from distance last year vs. this year and tell me what happened.

Like I said, if what you’re saying is true then every athletes shooting % should go down. If not then there are way too many variables to say the same strength training program they all did somehow magically affected one kid’s shot and yet didn’t others. Plus we can come up with just as many examples of kids who improved their shots while increasing strength. Guys there’s no research. Merely opinion and personal experience.

one guy in this thread said he lifted and it affected his shot poorly. Well, I went from benching 135-235 in my first two years in HS and not only improved percentage but also improved range. So what does that prove?

way too many variables to isolate and it can’t be done. You can believe what you want but until there’s research to demonstrate even the possibility that that is true, the benefits FAR out weigh even the possibility that MIGHT negatively affect a shot. That is such old school mindset.

[BADGERVOL]

1 hour ago, ColtsIUDomer said:

All good points, hard to disagree with either view at this time. We shall all find out together what next year holds!

A UK fan I work with said the thumb wrap was fake to excuse his poor shooting. At least he laughed at himself for even saying it out loud.

Omg that’s the most idiotic thing I’ve heard in a long time. That Kentucky fan needs punched in the face

[FKIM01]

2 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

Like I said, if what you’re saying is true then every athletes shooting % should go down. If not then there are way too many variables to say the same strength training program they all did somehow magically affected one kid’s shot and yet didn’t others. Plus we can come up with just as many examples of kids who improved their shots while increasing strength. Guys there’s no research. Merely opinion and personal experience.

one guy in this thread said he lifted and it affected his shot poorly. Well, I went from benching 135-235 in my first two years in HS and not only improved percentage but also improved range. So what does that prove?

way too many variables to isolate and it can’t be done. You can believe what you want but until there’s research to demonstrate even the possibility that that is true, the benefits FAR out weigh even the possibility that MIGHT negatively affect a shot. That is such old school mindset.

What's old school is being unwilling to consider the opposing view.  What has been said ad nauseum is that it's not unreasonable to think that different athletes can be affected differently by significant changes to their lifting program.  I don't see anyone arguing that overall, a strength & conditioning program is bad for your shot, but I do think there is evidence to support that at least some athletes go through a period of adjustment on their shot when a strength and conditioning program is significantly different to what they are accustomed to.  I think it's much less reasonable to assume that all athletes are similarly impacted by changes in their strength & conditioning program.

[BADGERVOL]

Also any attempts to say “when I was in HS” also fail because you’re still growing. Of course in a short period of time when your body is growing you have to adapt. That’s why you keep shooting through it. Your body doesn’t change AT ALL fast enough to affect neuromuscular coordination unless you completely stop doing a ln activity for an extended period of time while at the same time dramatically changing physically. And even in that instance it would be impossible to prove whether it’s the change physically or the lack of practice that affected the shot.

heck you could merely become quicker physically and not get stronger at all and it will cause a change biomechanically that has to cause adaptation. The variables are endless. The body is changing all the time. To pin it in a strength program is a gross over exaggeration.

[BADGERVOL]

1 minute ago, FKIM01 said:

What's old school is being unwilling to consider the opposing view.  What has been said ad nauseum is that it's not unreasonable to think that different athletes can be affected differently by significant changes to their lifting program.  I don't see anyone arguing that overall, a strength & conditioning program is bad for your shot, but I do think there is evidence to support that at least some athletes go through a period of adjustment on their shot when a strength and conditioning program is significantly different to what they are accustomed to.  I think it's much less reasonable to assume that all athletes are similarly impacted by changes in their strength & conditioning program.

I’m game! Demonstrate it reasonably! And I’m all ears. So far I’ve heard “athlete A” did “program B” and shot went down (assuming all variables are consistent which we already know aren’t.) yet “Athlete’s B, C, D, etc.” did “program B” and it didn’t. 

From what I can gather I still am waiting for any evidence to the contrary that add to the debate. 

Still listening...

[FKIM01]

6 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

I’m game! Demonstrate it reasonably! And I’m all ears. So far I’ve heard “athlete A” did “program B” and shot went down (assuming all variables are consistent which we already know aren’t.) yet “Athlete’s B, C, D, etc.” did “program B” and it didn’t. 

From what I can gather I still am waiting for any evidence to the contrary that add to the debate. 

Still listening...

You obviously didn't read the link I provided earlier.

[BGleas]

Every S&C Coach I've ever been around (at the HS, college and NBA levels) all say that lifting is not going to impact your shot, as long as as you're continuing your regular shooting regimen/work in conjunction. Yes, if you go on a lifting binge for 3 weeks and don't work on shooting at the same time and then return to the court your shooting will be off, but that's not what happens at the college level. These guys are lifting/weight training and then going right to the court to work on shooting and skills. 

The more likely case for Langford is that it's an issue of adjusting to the college game, the speed of the game, faster, longer, better defenders and still figuring out his best spots, as well as whatever is going on with the wrap, and then some confidence from deep. 

[BADGERVOL]

I read it. It’s one guy’s take on things. That’s not research. 

I appreciate his thoughts and that IS one person’s take and should be evaluated. But it doesn’t end any debate whatsoever.

I’ll wait for any “study” that has isolated control groups and variables” and makes an attempt and claiming something and giving data to back it up.

 

funny thing is I’m a XC and Track coach (mostly distance) so I deal with this ALL of the time. “Lifting weights will bulk you up and make you slow.”  Lifting weights will destroy your speed.

they are blanket statements that don’t take in consideration ALL of the variables that determine speed. In this instance “a shot.” 

We live in an age of The internet where anyone can find any person who has an article based on their opinion for how to do things. That isn’t scientific research.

I say lifting won’t affect your shot unless you merely stop shooting and lift for a long time (meaning your body changes without adaptation. No different than a growth spurt.)

i heat you and a couple others saying “lifting can affect your shot long term or short term.”

Two different takes. Who has better evidence to support it? Who has the data? 

Thats why I say we have to agree to disagree. So far nothing that has been shown demonstrates opposite of my view...that it won’t affect your shot, nor will weight training affect your speed.

🤷🏻‍♂️

[5fouls]

Repeating something I said earlier.  In HS, Romeo shot better from way downtown than he did with a foot right by the line.  He's not taking shots from the hash mark at IU.  

Long term, he will need to put in the work like Vic did to shoot a respectable percentage.  It's not the strength of his game.

[BADGERVOL]

This is merely a spirited debate about the affects of strength and power training on an athlete and their given sport. I discuss these thing ad nasuem with strength coaches at the college level. 

Thats why I say with utmost confidence, that the people who have the degrees and research behind the scenes are trusted by the coaches. No D1 coaches in basketball would ever sacrifice even one season of “shooting on a player” if they believed it negatively affected their shot. Not one. Yet I challenge anyone to come up with ONE D1 college basketball coach who doesn’t buy in 100% to strength training. And no, they would not all buy in if they believed it would negatively affect their players for merely ONE season. 

I know current or former D1 strength coaches from Madison, Baylor, Northern Illinois, and one that is the head trainer for Nike Pro (all the clothing you see in the stores...one of the core trainers who heads up all of Nike International Training. His name is Derek.

They ALL could be wrong. That IS possible. But all of them agree there are only a few dying “myths” left in sport when it comes to strength training and only a few sports holding out...

one of their most common agreed upon “myths” is that “strength training affects shooting in basketball.”

thats why I jumped into this discussion. Lol. I’m passionate about education on the topic.

[BADGERVOL]

1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

Repeating something I said earlier.  In HS, Romeo shot better from way downtown than he did with a foot right by the line.  He's not taking shots from the hash mark at IU.  

Long term, he will need to put in the work like Vic did to shoot a respectable percentage.  It's not the strength of his game.

Agreed. Might be mental. Might be the hand wrap. Might be a slump. Might be a lot of things. Who knows. But I agree he has to sort it out.

[Hoosierhoopster]

51 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

Agreed. Might be mental. Might be the hand wrap. Might be a slump. Might be a lot of things. Who knows. But I agree he has to sort it out.

Might be speed of the college game, ten times better defenders, his own strength training, the simple fact that the college 3-point line is different, confidence, the obvious fact that he's wearing a hand wrap, etc. 

None of this changes the fact that he has good form and can regularly and consistently hit a mid-range shot. To discount his ability to shoot -- which is why I entered this discussion -- is to ignore that. He did not come to IU as a deep shooter. He came in as an elite all-around scorer and player. But yes, he can shoot, and that likelihood that he'll develop a more consistent outside shot is high. He. Can. Shoot.

The strength/weight training discussion is always interesting, and I don't buy into absolutes on either side of the question, there are just way to many examples to ignore. Regardless, I think that's gotten away from Romeo's shooting issues.

[PoHoosier]

3 hours ago, BADGERVOL said:

Also any attempts to say “when I was in HS” also fail because you’re still growing. Of course in a short period of time when your body is growing you have to adapt. That’s why you keep shooting through it. Your body doesn’t change AT ALL fast enough to affect neuromuscular coordination unless you completely stop doing a ln activity for an extended period of time while at the same time dramatically changing physically. And even in that instance it would be impossible to prove whether it’s the change physically or the lack of practice that affected the shot.

heck you could merely become quicker physically and not get stronger at all and it will cause a change biomechanically that has to cause adaptation. The variables are endless. The body is changing all the time. To pin it in a strength program is a gross over exaggeration.

I was one who related my experiences.  I played nearly every day while in the Navy going to various training schools.  I would have been 19-20.  I would shoot 30 free throws and at least 30 threes a day.  You are right in many regards.  I was never a D-1 athlete.  My low release point and 8" vertical leap were more than minor hindrances.  I was not shooting enough as I am a slow learner.  Awkward and clumsy, putting on mass, I could barely walk without walking into things.  I think we can agree that D-1 athletes will shoot more and have many gifts others do not have.  As far as pinning it all on strength and conditioning, I don't believe anyone said that was a sole consideration, just merely a possibility.

It might be laughable that a D-1 athlete would be affected so badly by it, but I can assure you that when I went from shooting 58% from three in practice to under 40% is a significant swing.  Thirty 3s were not enough attempts a day to have the muscle memory adapt for me.  You are right again about too many variables and everyone being different.

[BornHoosier]

On 1/3/2019 at 11:06 AM, BADGERVOL said:

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. There’s obviously no study or anything concrete that shows that lifting weights throws your shot off. Neither is there anything that states lifting “stunts your growth” neither is there anything that states it causes you to lose flexibility or speed, etc. these are all ideas that are floated around and are slowly fading away. In fact it’s been awhile since I’ve even heard this anymore. I thought it was largely gone. 

 No study but it makes perfect sense.  Shooting touch is all muscle memory & if you are a shooter chances are you worked hard by shooting a bunch of shots until you could barely hit the rim.  Fast forward to same person going thru a lifting program, hence getting stronger.  You lose that muscle memory touch that you worked on for many yrs & your shot feels broken!  Once your shot feels broken, you lose all the confidence that made you a great shooter in the first place.  Every shooter has that special confidence that they can swish from anywhere at anytime.  Your shot can adjust after strength gain but not in one season.

[Bigred3588]

I know strength training certainly had an adverse affect on my shot when I played. As another poster mentioned, muscle memory plays a big role in a player’s shot. Any time I added muscle, I went through an adjustment period where I had to make the appropriate alterations to my shot. I also remember coaches discouraging us from lifting two days prior to games and telling us to maintain our numbers but don’t make in-season gains. 

In Romeo’s situation, I think that may be a small part of it. The larger issue, IMO, is the problem with his wrist/hand. I’ve broken my shooting hand and wrist and it definitely alters your shot. It’s not evident when you watch the player shoot, but the ball doesn’t leave your hand properly when you compensate for pain. And you simply don’t wrap something and make the player wear a brace off the court if there isn’t some kind of pain and/or lingering issue. Romeo has been wearing it for over a month now which is more than enough time for a sprain to heal and almost long enough for a break. 

[NotIThatLives]

7 minutes ago, Bigred3588 said:

I know strength training certainly had an adverse affect on my shot when I played. As another poster mentioned, muscle memory plays a big role in a player’s shot. Any time I added muscle, I went through an adjustment period where I had to make the appropriate alterations to my shot. I also remember coaches discouraging us from lifting two days prior to games and telling us to maintain our numbers but don’t make in-season gains. 

In Romeo’s situation, I think that may be a small part of it. The larger issue, IMO, is the problem with his wrist/hand. I’ve broken my shooting hand and wrist and it definitely alters your shot. It’s not evident when you watch the player shoot, but the ball doesn’t leave your hand properly when you compensate for pain. And you simply don’t wrap something and make the player wear a brace off the court if there isn’t some kind of pain and/or lingering issue. Romeo has been wearing it for over a month now which is more than enough time for a sprain to heal and almost long enough for a break. 

I think you are on to something.   

[rico]

On 1/3/2019 at 5:11 PM, PoHoosier said:

I was one who related my experiences.  I played nearly every day while in the Navy going to various training schools.  I would have been 19-20.  I would shoot 30 free throws and at least 30 threes a day.  You are right in many regards.  I was never a D-1 athlete.  My low release point and 8" vertical leap were more than minor hindrances.  I was not shooting enough as I am a slow learner.  Awkward and clumsy, putting on mass, I could barely walk without walking into things.  I think we can agree that D-1 athletes will shoot more and have many gifts others do not have.  As far as pinning it all on strength and conditioning, I don't believe anyone said that was a sole consideration, just merely a possibility.

It might be laughable that a D-1 athlete would be affected so badly by it, but I can assure you that when I went from shooting 58% from three in practice to under 40% is a significant swing.  Thirty 3s were not enough attempts a day to have the muscle memory adapt for me.  You are right again about too many variables and everyone being different.

8" vertical leap?  LOL  I would have so dunked over you!!!!!!

[PoHoosier]

58 minutes ago, rico said:

8" vertical leap?  LOL  I would have so dunked over you!!!!!!

I think Sister Jean or Martha could have dunked on me.

[BADGERVOL]

Honestly guys I’m not trying to be a prick. I really am not. But yet again I’m trying to figure out how anyone could logically conclude that a basketball “player A” (Romeo) was affected by strength “program X” in regards to an outside shot, when players B, C, D, E, F, G, H, etc were not and that it isn’t more logical to assume that maybe he’s in a slump, he’s changed a tweak in his form, etc. that there isn’t some other variable that is unique to HIM and only him seeing as though HE is the one who has dropped off.

there is nothing logicalnso far that has been presented to me thus far. Nothing. Any argument I’ve seen has HUGE holes in it for the reasons I’ve stated above.

”No you don’t get it Hans, Romeo has a special DNA strand that is unqiue to all humans that causes strength training to affect HIS shot different than all the rest.

guys strength coaches go to college, get degrees in biomechanics, human and athletic physiology, etc. they study this stuff for a reason. Major D1 coaches are paid MILLIONS of dollars. They know that a Romeo is here for one year. How on EARTH could any rational person believe that an Archie is thinking “well I know strength training will affect his shot for the ONE and only season I coach him, but oh well. So it costs us a couple games. So be it.” There is absolutely NO way.

which leaves on option as far as I can tell, Archie is being duped by strength coaches who are highly trained in these areas and just trusts them and in reality they know darn well that their training is going to negatively affect shots of players...oh crap wait, just players named Romeo. 

Yes guys, changes in the body, whether it be from muscle development, natural maturation, could bring about adverse affects in anything having to do with muscle memory. That’s WHY you continue to shoot through it. Is it POSSIBLE, that some unique persons muscular development might be a bit more aggressive than what their continual shooting through it could adapt to? I suppose that’s possible. It also could be that way from a kid simply growing regardless of if they strength trained at all.

my point is, strength training is 1.) not the enemy. 2.) not anymore of a culprit than a kid merely growing natural (as long as they’re shooting and developing Nero-muscular adaptation to whatever athletic movement they need to maintain.

I’ll keep waiting for someone to make a rational case. The few who keep beating this drum keep pointing to the same arguments and they don’t add up. And if there was even a solid CHANCE they added up no coach in their right mind would allow strength coaches to work on a kid who’s gonna be a star as a frost at all. NO WAY. This is SO obvious I can’t grasp it. It literally falls in the same group as those who say “weight training stunts your growth” which is absolutely biologically FALSE, yet people will say...

”oh I can attest to the fact that my growth charts said I’d be 6’2” and I lifted s ton and never got above 5’11” so it must be true.”

OR

”My coach told me that was true.”

OR

”I knew a guy that happened to,”

Etc

you guys are over simplifying the variables in this situation. And that leads to people targeting variables that aren’t the more obvious issue.

[PoHoosier]

I'm not sure if any of the above was directed at me.  If so, I was relaying my experiences, which were not D1 or anything close to.

I get that the paid, educated professionals would very likely know more than those posting on a message board.  As I was relaying my experiences, they are likely unique to me.  Minimal practice and experience being limiting factors, my experience likely doesn't translate to say, a Romeo, at all.

[Tru123dt]

I think Yogu went in a similar slump as Romeo his freshman year.

[FKIM01]

I don't at all get the premise that all athletes respond exactly the same way to weight training programs.  There's plenty of evidence outside of shooting that they don't. 

[rico]

2 hours ago, Tru123dt said:

I think Yogu went in a similar slump as Romeo his freshman year.

To be fair. "Yogu" was not counted on to score as a frosh.

[BADGERVOL]

1 hour ago, FKIM01 said:

I don't at all get the premise that all athletes respond exactly the same way to weight training programs.  There's plenty of evidence outside of shooting that they don't. 

Perfect. Then what evidence do we have that it’s strength training that has thrown his shot off more than something he ate at jimmy John’s in the first week of the semester? 

The point is there is NO way to draw a line to it anymore than dozens of other things. It’s pointless. And any attempt to point to a reason it might has tons of holes in it.

[FKIM01]

1 minute ago, BADGERVOL said:

Perfect. Then what evidence do we have that it’s strength training that has thrown his shot off more than something he ate at jimmy John’s in the first week of the semester? 

The point is there is NO way to draw a line to it anymore than dozens of other things. It’s pointless. And any attempt to point to a reason it might has tons of holes in it.

We've had several guys here indicate that they went through an adjustment period after weight training.  Most people also accept that there is a phenomenon known as muscle memory.  We've seen Both Yogi and Romeo struggle to hit not only contested 3's but wide-open 3's in their early college careers, shooting a much lower percentage than they did as high school seniors.  No one has tried to say that an adjustment in weight training programs is solely responsible here, but it sure looks like there is a lot of anecdotal evidence, smoke, etc. here.  I can't understand why you're so quick to rule it out as at least being a possible contributing factor.  Frankly, I think it's a lot more than that for at least some college freshmen.