IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I'm more of the mind that with training/nutrition being what they are today, Koufax would have even nastier stuff than he had in the 60s. I think that about a lot of athletes who've competed in years gone by... Wilt Chamberlain for instance...I think the Wilt that played in the 60s would be a tad less dominant than he was then, but with today's training advantages, he would be the preeminent player in the game today, even with the shift away from bigs. Same with Babe Ruth. Vices aside, I think the guy would be a star today if he'd come up today and trained like athletes do That's a good way to look at it. Again, I think Koufax would be successful in today's game, I just don't think he would be near as dominant as he was in the 60s. Hitters today are just that much more advanced than back then, plus bigger and stronger on average. That's why I think it's silly to compare era's and even more foolish to use as outliers as to why pitchers today shouldn't throw harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I'm more of the mind that with training/nutrition being what they are today, Koufax would have even nastier stuff than he had in the 60s. I think that about a lot of athletes who've competed in years gone by... Wilt Chamberlain for instance...I think the Wilt that played in the 60s would be a tad less dominant than he was then, but with today's training advantages, he would be the preeminent player in the game today, even with the shift away from bigs. Same with Babe Ruth. Vices aside, I think the guy would be a star today if he'd come up today and trained like athletes do To me if a guy like MJ played in today's NBA and the rules he would average 40 points a game but it is to hard to say what people of different generations would do. Would today's NBA players be able to handle the physicality of the 80's and 90's because they wouldn't be able to just go to the basket without consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonV Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 13 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said: No, just familiarity. Back in Koufax' era there just wasn't much left handed pitching, especially dominant left-handed pitching. Sure guys pitched left handed, before and during Koufax' era but hitters just weren't accustomed to seeing lefties night in and night out like they are today. You look at today's game and some the best pitching in the last 5-10 years have all been lefthanders (Kershaw, Hernandez, Sale). Koufax had the stuff to get today's hitters out, but it's nothing that I personally believe would overwhelm hitters to the extent that it did in the 60's. Help me out. Who is the lefty Hernandez? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 I don't know if this has any impact on the discussion at hand or not. I was listening to a former major league pitcher and did not catch his name because it was not interesting until he started talking about some of the differences since he pitched in the late 90's. He talked about after games going out partying all night having fun with the locals etc... He stated that in todays age with everyone having a phone and athletes being so recognizable most player go back to the hotel and go over the stats and watch tape. He said that a hitter today within a few minutes can upload ever pitch that a guy has thrown this year broken down by the count, number of outs etc.. These guys spend so much time studying and have a good idea of what to expect, its one thing to know what is coming but another to try and hit it. He also said that pitchers use to have the mentality to go out and throw 9. That was the goal and the manager for the most part took their word that they were ok. Now the manager will trust the radar, the numbers what the percentages are for the next few batters etc in deciding when to pull a guy. In his professional opinion he felt many pitchers from the past that were successful might not be in today's game. He followed that up with the winners of any era would still find a way to get it done. that is what separates the Hall of Famers with the good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 1 minute ago, IndyResident16 said: That's a good way to look at it. Again, I think Koufax would be successful in today's game, I just don't think he would be near as dominant as he was in the 60s. Hitters today are just that much more advanced than back then, plus bigger and stronger on average. That's why I think it's silly to compare era's and even more foolish to use as outliers as to why pitchers today shouldn't throw harder. Very interesting subject, at least to me... Anyway, welcome to the baseball thread. We have a mix of Cubs, Reds, Yankees, Twins, and Cardinals fans that post here a lot. Good breadth of knowledge here, too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said: That's a good way to look at it. Again, I think Koufax would be successful in today's game, I just don't think he would be near as dominant as he was in the 60s. Hitters today are just that much more advanced than back then, plus bigger and stronger on average. That's why I think it's silly to compare era's and even more foolish to use as outliers as to why pitchers today shouldn't throw harder. Nobody said that they shouldn't throw hard but they need to learn to actually pitch as well and not only rely on throwing as hard as they can. The best pitchers like Verlander and Scherzer doesn't go full throttle from pitch 1 and until they are taken out. They actually pitch and uses their different pitches and when they need the extra gas they have it to get out of trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said: That's a good way to look at it. Again, I think Koufax would be successful in today's game, I just don't think he would be near as dominant as he was in the 60s. Hitters today are just that much more advanced than back then, plus bigger and stronger on average. That's why I think it's silly to compare era's and even more foolish to use as outliers as to why pitchers today shouldn't throw harder. Batters also strike out at an alarming rate today as well so itching from that era would have more K's as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: He talked about after games going out partying all night having fun with the locals etc... He stated that in todays age with everyone having a phone and athletes being so recognizable most player go back to the hotel and go over the stats and watch tape. I wonder how much of that is really true. I mean come on...these guys are young, in good shape for the most part (sorry on both parts, Bartolo) and I'm sure enjoy a good time. I don't think it gets to the Mantle/Ford/Martin level, but I have to believe that red blooded young men from this era, seek the same things as red blooded young men of days gone by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 19 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Batters also strike out at an alarming rate today as well so itching from that era would have more K's as well. Because pitching is better today LOL. Guys like Scherzer, Cole, and Verlander who throw high 90s-100 today would eat batters from the 60s alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, IU Scott said: itching from that era would have more K's as well. Let's leave jock rot and athlete's foot out of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 1 minute ago, IUFLA said: I wonder how much of that is really true. I mean come on...these guys are young, in good shape for the most part (sorry on both parts, Bartolo) and I'm sure enjoy a good time. I don't think it gets to the Mantle/Ford/Martin level, but I have to believe that red blooded young men from this era, seek the same things as red blooded young men of days gone by. I can't speak to other cities but I do know there are 4-5 places in/around Wrigleyville where the bar owners do the Jeter thing. No phones if the guys are in having a few. Players feel protected there. Regarding baseball. Every week is big from here on in. Cubs in Philly tonight. Cards should be able to handle the Royals which makes Cubs series important. Another equally important series is Twins vs Brewers. Both teams need wins. NL Central could be completely flipped upside down by Thursday night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I wonder how much of that is really true. I mean come on...these guys are young, in good shape for the most part (sorry on both parts, Bartolo) and I'm sure enjoy a good time. I don't think it gets to the Mantle/Ford/Martin level, but I have to believe that red blooded young men from this era, seek the same things as red blooded young men of days gone by. I think because of social media and the potential of someone looking for an easy payday I don't think the average player is out partying like they used to. I think the partying is more organized so to speak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I wonder how much of that is really true. I mean come on...these guys are young, in good shape for the most part (sorry on both parts, Bartolo) and I'm sure enjoy a good time. I don't think it gets to the Mantle/Ford/Martin level, but I have to believe that red blooded young men from this era, seek the same things as red blooded young men of days gone by. I got to know Josh Hamilton pretty well through a mutual friend. Those that want to party and go wild can do so. He said that he stopped doing that and just started hanging out at the tattoo parlors. He said they did not want anything from him,no hidden agendas no fear and that was part of what led him into the rampant drug use etc. He could get the alcohol, drugs girls and tattoos without wondering what tough guy would try to fight him or what girl wanted to hook up just to try and get something else from him. He shared lots of other things and as a guy who works everyday to support his family I found it hard to feel sorry for him with all the money and fame etc.. but as I got older and thought about it there are some serious drawbacks to being in the spotlight 24/7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: I think because of social media and the potential of someone looking for an easy payday I don't think the average player is out partying like they used to. I think the partying is more organized so to speak Yeah, and the cell phone cameras/videos...you're probably right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 I guess the main reason i don't like analytics is that it has taken away some parts of the games that I enjoyed. In basketball it has come down to only taking 3's and layups with no mid range game at all and I just don't like that. I love seeing great shooters hitting 3's and that was the only thing I did real well on the court but I want to see a variety of offenses as well. In baseball it has pretty much made it a home run, Strikeout or a walk game and that is boring to me. It has taken any use of speed out of the game and I think the shift has taken the spectacular plays from SS's away as well. I use to love seeing players like Ozzie Smith going way up the middle to make a great play or go into the hole but now with the shift you see way less of those plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonV Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 41 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said: No, just familiarity. Back in Koufax' era there just wasn't much left handed pitching, especially dominant left-handed pitching. Sure guys pitched left handed, before and during Koufax' era but hitters just weren't accustomed to seeing lefties night in and night out like they are today. You look at today's game and some the best pitching in the last 5-10 years have all been lefthanders (Kershaw, Hernandez, Sale). Koufax had the stuff to get today's hitters out, but it's nothing that I personally believe would overwhelm hitters to the extent that it did in the 60's. Who is Hernandez the lefty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, IU Scott said: I guess the main reason i don't like analytics is that it has taken away some parts of the games that I enjoyed. In basketball it has come down to only taking 3's and layups with no mid range game at all and I just don't like that. I love seeing great shooters hitting 3's and that was the only thing I did real well on the court but I want to see a variety of offenses as well. In baseball it has pretty much made it a home run, Strikeout or a walk game and that is boring to me. It has taken any use of speed out of the game and I think the shift has taken the spectacular plays from SS's away as well. I use to love seeing players like Ozzie Smith going way up the middle to make a great play or go into the hole but now with the shift you see way less of those plays. Ok and that's fine and your personal opinion and I won't ever question that. But it doesn't make the game any worse just because you've lost your enjoyment. It puts coaches and managers in better positions to win. If I'm a manager and I have data that shows Javy Baez hits the ball back up the middle 60% of the time and only hits it to the right side of the infield <`10% of the time, I'm going to play to my advantage and I'd think you'd be nuts not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, CrimsonV said: Who is Hernandez the lefty? Felix, yes. Worn down the last couple years but from 09-14 was about as good as there was, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonV Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 Just now, IndyResident16 said: Felix, yes. Worn down the last couple years but from 09-14 was about as good as there was, He was filthy back then but he’s a righty. I was stumped lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, CrimsonV said: He was filthy back then but he’s a righty. I was stumped lol Ya you're right, I may have been confusing him for whatever reason. Both from Venezuela though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 11 minutes ago, IU Scott said: I guess the main reason i don't like analytics is that it has taken away some parts of the games that I enjoyed. In basketball it has come down to only taking 3's and layups with no mid range game at all and I just don't like that. I love seeing great shooters hitting 3's and that was the only thing I did real well on the court but I want to see a variety of offenses as well. In baseball it has pretty much made it a home run, Strikeout or a walk game and that is boring to me. It has taken any use of speed out of the game and I think the shift has taken the spectacular plays from SS's away as well. I use to love seeing players like Ozzie Smith going way up the middle to make a great play or go into the hole but now with the shift you see way less of those plays. I think the Ozzie Smith type plays back in the day are, if anything, more common today. I saw a play by a shortstop on the A's (can't remember his name) the other day that I'm almost positive The Wizard couldn't have made. And I saw a ton of Ozzie Smith both live and on TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said: Ok and that's fine and your personal opinion and I won't ever question that. But it doesn't make the game any worse just because you've lost your enjoyment. It puts coaches and managers in better positions to win. If I'm a manager and I have data that shows Javy Baez hits the ball back up the middle 60% of the time and only hits it to the right side of the infield <`10% of the time, I'm going to play to my advantage and I'd think you'd be nuts not to. I guess I really don't care if teams use it as much as I don't understand why fans uses it as much as they do. I guess if you are a gambler or in fantasy sports you might but just for pure enjoyment of the sport I don't see where it enhances you experience at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonV Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said: Ya you're right, I may have been confusing him for whatever reason. Both from Venezuela though. I think you might be thinking of Johan Santana. He was absolutely dominant 2005-2009 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Santana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 1 minute ago, IU Scott said: I guess I really don't care if teams use it as much as I don't understand why fans uses it as much as they do. I guess if you are a gambler or in fantasy sports you might but just for pure enjoyment of the sport I don't see where it enhances you experience at all. It interests me and that’s all that matters I guess. If I as a fan, know Javy Baez consistently hits the ball up the middle and the manager for the team I root for plays him straight up, it frustrates me. Especially after he hits a ball straight up the middle for a base hit. So basically you’re saying you don’t mind when managers use analytics but you don’t understand why fans support managers who use analytics? How does that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted August 13, 2019 Report Share Posted August 13, 2019 Just now, CrimsonV said: I think you might be thinking of Johan Santana. He was absolutely dominant 2005-2009 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Santana Yes. Multiple CY Young winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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