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2019 MLB Discussion


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16 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

To me with baseball trying to limit pitch counts on starters is having a bad effect on the bullpen arms.  Was reading on the Reds board the other day and people were talking about how you should only sing a reliever for 2 or 3 years.  Their theory is that those bullpen guys are totally spent after 2 or 3 years and are not effective after those few years.

For the sake of discussion and to stir the pot some. You say the team babies starters and take out too early after 92 pitches but claim the bullpen arms are worn out and over used.  If a starter is expected to throw 100 pitches every 5 days why should a reliever arm be dead by throwing 10 to 40 pitches 2 or 3 times a week

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23 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I guess that where we differ because I don't think 92 pitches is a high count for anyone who is a starter.  I feel the problem with pitchers today is that they want to strikeout every batter and that makes your pitch count higher earlier in the game.  Last night Gray through 5 innings had struck 10, walked 4 and hit a batter.  At one stretch of 10 batters no one on the Cardinals put a ball in play because it was either a walk, Strikeout, and a hit batsman.

Maybe I am way off here but since Abner Doubleday created this great game the goal is for the pitcher to get the batter out any means necessary. I think pitchers have always had the goal and incentive to strike every batter out

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16 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I guess that where we differ because I don't think 92 pitches is a high count for anyone who is a starter.  I feel the problem with pitchers today is that they want to strikeout every batter and that makes your pitch count higher earlier in the game.  Last night Gray through 5 innings had struck 10, walked 4 and hit a batter.  At one stretch of 10 batters no one on the Cardinals put a ball in play because it was either a walk, Strikeout, and a hit batsman.

Darvish has had 1 Tommy John surgery, and barely avoided a 2nd last year. The Cubs have a lot of money tied up in him, so I can understand the caution.

If Kimbrel, Kintzler, Cishek (who had started to struggle), and even Brandon Morrow (long shot, I know, but I'm reading it is possible) can come back, the bullpen can right itself.

The inconsistent offense is another thing. Russell has been going good back in AAA (.281 7 HR 26 RBI in 27 games) and the Tony Kemp experiment doesn't seem too solid. 

And get Zobrist back (went 0-3 in his AAA debut)..

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14 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

For the sake of discussion and to stir the pot some. You say the team babies starters and take out too early after 92 pitches but claim the bullpen arms are worn out and over used.  If a starter is expected to throw 100 pitches every 5 days why should a reliever arm be dead by throwing 10 to 40 pitches 2 or 3 times a week

It is just not the pitches the relievers pitch in the game but the amount they throw warming up as well.  It is different having to pitch once every 5 days where they can recuperate  than being expected to be ready every day.  A reliever might pitch 70-75 times a year compared to 30-35 as a starter.

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3 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Darvish has had 1 Tommy John surgery, and barely avoided a 2nd last year. The Cubs have a lot of money tied up in him, so I can understand the caution.

If Kimbtel, Kintler, Cishek (who had started to struggle), and even Brandon Morrow (long shot, I know, but I'm reading it is possible) can come back, the bullpen can right itself.

The inconsistent offense is another thing. Russell has been going good back in AAA (.281 7 HR 26 RBI in 27 games) and the Tony Kemp experiment doesn't seem too solid. 

And get Zobrist back (went 0-3 in his AAA debut)...

See right there how you are talking about all the relievers injuries and most of that is from over use.  All of this limiting pitches was to help slow down injuries and I would be for it if it had helped.  To me it appears this philosophy has not help in preventing injuries but it appears arm injuries are higher today than ever.  Also bullpen ERA's are going up every year so it is not like this is helping your team by limiting your starters pitches.

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Just now, IU Scott said:

It is just not the pitches the relievers pitch in the game but the amount they throw warming up as well.  It is different having to pitch once every 5 days where they can recuperate  than being expected to be ready every day.  A reliever might pitch 70-75 times a year compared to 30-35 as a starter.

I was hoping you would go there. Alex Meyer former pro pitcher told me he threw a lot more in warm up for a starter than a reliever. 

My son comes out of the bullpen for his college team and there are 3 levels when they get the call down to warm up.

1. Start getting ready which means stretch light throw etc

2.coach says you are pitching next inning get loose now

3. Then there is we need you now get ready ASAFP

those guys dont always throw a lot of pitches before they come in and it's a progression.

Starters still throw bullpen in between starts as well. There is no excuse for a reliever to he any more worn out than a starter. 

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3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

See right there how you are talking about all the relievers injuries and most of that is from over use.  All of this limiting pitches was to help slow down injuries and I would be for it if it had helped.  To me it appears this philosophy has not help in preventing injuries but it appears arm injuries are higher today than ever.  Also bullpen ERA's are going up every year so it is not like this is helping your team by limiting your starters pitches.

The only one with an arm issue out of that reliever group is Morrow, so try again.

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2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

See right there how you are talking about all the relievers injuries and most of that is from over use.  All of this limiting pitches was to help slow down injuries and I would be for it if it had helped.  To me it appears this philosophy has not help in preventing injuries but it appears arm injuries are higher today than ever.  Also bullpen ERA's are going up every year so it is not like this is helping your team by limiting your starters pitches.

I think we just hear about the injuries more than what we did 40 years ago.  The Reds are littered with good starting pitchers with arm problems from the 70's, 80's, and into the 90's.

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4 minutes ago, rico said:

I think we just hear about the injuries more than what we did 40 years ago.  The Reds are littered with good starting pitchers with arm problems from the 70's, 80's, and into the 90's.

Jim Maloney, Tony Cloninger, Gary Nolan, Don Gullett...what did they all have in common?

Power pitchers...and they all tried to "pitch through it.-

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9 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said:

Name of the game is to get the opposing hitters out. Sonny Gray has been next to dominant in that regard over his last 8 starts. Has lower his ERA almost a full run over the last month or so. He's paid to get the hitters he faces out, not throw 130 pitches a game because they used to 30 and 40 years ago.

What good is it to be dominate for 5 innings only to see your bullpen blow it since they had to cover 4 innings.  Like I said why not teach these pitchers to learn to be more efficient with their pitches and not to try to strikeout every batter so they are not at 100 pitches in the 5th inning.

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Just now, IUFLA said:

Jim Maloney, Tony Cloninger, Gary Nolan, Don Gullett...what did they all have in common?

Power pitchers...and they all tried to "pitch through it.-

Add to that Frank Pastore, Bruce Berenyi, Mario Soto, and Jose Rijo.

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16 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

What good is it to be dominate for 5 innings only to see your bullpen blow it since they had to cover 4 innings.  Like I said why not teach these pitchers to learn to be more efficient with their pitches and not to try to strikeout every batter so they are not at 100 pitches in the 5th inning.

Gray has a history of arm problems. Reds just invested in him, why risk throwing him 130 pitches a game just because they used to do it in the old days? With an advancement in stats and analytics that show hitters are more successful third time through the order, you want your starter to be as dominant as he can, not just efficient. I know you don't believe in this stuff, but it's true. 

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7 minutes ago, rico said:

Add to that Frank Pastore, Bruce Berenyi, Mario Soto, and Jose Rijo.

Little known fact...Pastore held the record for eating a 72 oz steak (with the all the trimmings...salad, a dinner roll, baked potato, and a shrimp cocktail) at The Big Texan Steak Ranch in 9 1/2 minutes. 

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22 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

What good is it to be dominate for 5 innings only to see your bullpen blow it since they had to cover 4 innings.  Like I said why not teach these pitchers to learn to be more efficient with their pitches and not to try to strikeout every batter so they are not at 100 pitches in the 5th inning.

Because it is a team sport. What good is it to have a Peyton Manning throw 5 TDs to have the defense to give up 6. Or a kicker miss a 32yard field goal after the defense got a stop and offense moves ball down field to set up the game winner. It is a team sport and you as a manager do what you can to put yourself in best position to get a W

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5 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said:

Gray has a history of arm problems. Reds just invested in him, why risk throwing him 130 pitches a game just because they used to do it in the old days? With an advancement in stats and analytics that show hitters are more successful third time through the order, you want your starter to be as dominant as he can, not just efficient. I know you don't believe in this stuff, but it's true. 

Like I said if all of this stuff was suppose to help  pitchers from getting injured it is not working.

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26 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

What good is it to be dominate for 5 innings only to see your bullpen blow it since they had to cover 4 innings.  Like I said why not teach these pitchers to learn to be more efficient with their pitches and not to try to strikeout every batter so they are not at 100 pitches in the 5th inning.

I have no issues with the way the Reds used their pen last night. Stephenson hadn't pitched since Tuesday and only threw an inning. Lorenzen hadn't pitched since Sunday and looked great over 1 2/3's and Iglesias hadn't pitched since last Friday.

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2 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Because it is a team sport. What good is it to have a Peyton Manning throw 5 TDs to have the defense to give up 6. Or a kicker miss a 32yard field goal after the defense got a stop and offense moves ball down field to set up the game winner. It is a team sport and you as a manager do what you can to put yourself in best position to get a W

Well there are two fan bases on here that is constantly complaining how their bullpen keeps blowing leads.  I feel it is harder on the bullpen to have to cover 3 and 4 innings consistently over 162 game season.

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10 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

What good is it to be dominate for 5 innings only to see your bullpen blow it since they had to cover 4 innings.  Like I said why not teach these pitchers to learn to be more efficient with their pitches and not to try to strikeout every batter so they are not at 100 pitches in the 5th inning.

I have no problem with what Maddon or Bell did last night.  In Joe's case the Cubs' pen pissed away a 5 run lead in 2 innings and got the L.  In Bell's case the Reds' pen pitched 4 innings of 1 run, 1 hit ball and got the win.  

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Just now, Billingsley99 said:

Scott you make no like David Bell as a manager but I think he understands his players and their capabilities much more than us fans. There is also people above him that know what is invested in players and how each should be handled.

I know why they are doing it and understand it but doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

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