2019 MLB Discussion

[5fouls]

10 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Morgan was by far the better player and it is actually a lot easier to play defense on grass because it slows the ball down.  Chicago was known for letting their infield grass grow real thick to slow the ball down making it harder to get through the infield.

Morgan was not as good defensively as Sandberg.  Morgan, however, was a better overall player, and that is not debatable.

[IU Scott]

10 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Morgan was not as good defensively as Sandberg.  Morgan, however, was a better overall player, and that is not debatable.

Well on astro turf you will get to less balls because of how fast they go off the turf. 

[rico]

8 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Well on astro turf you will get to less balls because of how fast they go off the turf. 

Point being?

[rico]

24 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

If you are talking overall impact,  including baserunning when baserunning was important, it's Morgan and it's really not that  close.  If you want to single out defense, then Sandberg was a better defensive player.  

Fair enough and my take as well.

[Seeking6]

17 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Well on astro turf you will get to less balls because of how fast they go off the turf. 

Does that mean Morgan got more hits because of this turf? If you subscribe to the theory that Sandberg benefits from tall grass on defense side you must almost say he was robbed of many hits too, right?? 

I think Morgan was better but terms like by far, not debatable,etc.... are laughable. As others have mentioned there are many, many find 2B players. 

 

Should have added this link. I'm sure everyone can use Google the same way. Pretty good side by side.

https://bapple2286.wordpress.com/2013/09/20/hall-of-fame-debate-joe-morgan-vs-ryne-sandberg/

[5fouls]

3 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

 

I think Morgan was better but terms like by far, not debatable,etc.... are laughable. As others have mentioned there are many, many find 2B players. 

Laugh if you want but advanced metrics say 'by far'.  

[rico]

8 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Laugh if you want but advanced metrics say 'by far'.  

Does Scott know that?  😀

[IUFLA]

38 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Laugh if you want but advanced metrics say 'by far'.  

And according to WAR, Larry Walker is 'by far' a better player than Willie McCovey.

I think I take the Edwin Starr view of "WAR." 

[5fouls]

13 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

And according to WAR, Larry Walker is 'by far' a better player than Willie McCovey.

I think I take the Edwin Starr view of "WAR." 

Larry Walker may, indeed, be a better player than Willie McCovey.  McCovey played in a time when stars were more celebrated than they were in Walker's day.

Look at the first 10 names on this list and tell me that WAR has no meaning.

 https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_career.shtml

[IUFLA]

10 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Larry Walker may, indeed, be a better player than Willie McCovey.  McCovey played in a time when stars were more celebrated than they were in Walker's day.

Look at the first 10 names on this list and tell me that WAR has no meaning.

 https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_career.shtml

So according to WAR, Bert Blyleven is on the same level as Bob Gibson, and MILES above Sandy Koufax (who is tied with that pitching Titan, Jimmy Key)?

Come on, man...THAT is laughable...

[5fouls]

9 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

So according to WAR, Bert Blyleven is on the same level as Bob Gibson, and MILES above Sandy Koufax (who is tied with that pitching Titan, Jimmy Key)?

Come on, man...THAT is laughable...

You also have to factor in years played.  So, yes, Blyleven's 22 years is going to skew the number against Koufax, who only played 10 or 11.

Using that perspective, let's compare Larry Walker and Willie McCovey, using 'traditional' stats (keeping in mind that Walker has a higher WAR).

• McCovey had 1,290 MORE at bats during his career than Walker.  So, we can assume that McCovey should hold a significant advantage over Walker in traditional stats.
• McCovey only has 51 more hits (advantage Walker when compared to all teh extra at bats)
• Walker with a batting average that is 43 points higher
• Walker scored 126 more runs (in 1,290 fewer at bats)
• Walker had 204 more stolen bases
• McCovey had 138 more home runs (advantage McCovey, but not as large as it seems due to the disparity in at bats)
• McCovey with 244 more RBIs (not going to do the math, but let's call it a wash considering the difference in at bats)
• Walker with a higher On Base Percentage, Slugging Percentage, and a 76 point advantage in OPS.  
• Both won 1 MVP
• McCovey 6 time all star, Walker a 5 time all star
• Walker won 7 gold gloves.  McCovey won zero.  I looked it up.  Gold Gloves started in '57, so the award was presented during McCovey's entire career.

So, yes.  Both WAR & traditional stats tell me that Walker was the equal or better player than McCovey in everything except home runs.  Attribute some of it to Coors Field, but also keep in mind that McCovey had a longer career.  And, Coors Field can't be used as an excuse when looking at the Stolen Base and Gold Glove numbers.

McCovey is glorified because of the era in which he played.  

•  

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, rico said:

Point being?

Point is that you have to have way more range and lateral quickness to play defense on astro turf.

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, rico said:

Does Scott know that?  😀

Don't need metrics I do the eye test

[rico]

13 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

You also have to factor in years played.  So, yes, Blyleven's 22 years is going to skew the number against Koufax, who only played 10 or 11.

Using that perspective, let's compare Larry Walker and Willie McCovey, using 'traditional' stats (keeping in mind that Walker has a higher WAR).

• McCovey had 1,290 MORE at bats during his career than Walker.  So, we can assume that McCovey should hold a significant advantage over Walker in traditional stats.
• McCovey only has 51 more hits (advantage Walker when compared to all teh extra at bats)
• Walker with a batting average that is 43 points higher
• Walker scored 126 more runs (in 1,290 fewer at bats)
• Walker had 204 more stolen bases
• McCovey had 138 more home runs (advantage McCovey, but not as large as it seems due to the disparity in at bats)
• McCovey with 244 more RBIs (not going to do the math, but let's call it a wash considering the difference in at bats)
• Walker with a higher On Base Percentage, Slugging Percentage, and a 76 point advantage in OPS.  
• Both won 1 MVP
• McCovey 6 time all star, Walker a 5 time all star
• Walker won 7 gold gloves.  McCovey won zero.  I looked it up.  Gold Gloves started in '57, so the award was presented during McCovey's entire career.

So, yes.  Both WAR & traditional stats tell me that Walker was the equal or better player than McCovey in everything except home runs.  Attribute some of it to Coors Field, but also keep in mind that McCovey had a longer career.  And, Coors Field can't be used as an excuse when looking at the Stolen Base and Gold Glove numbers.

McCovey is glorified because of the era in which he played.  

•  

Good stuff bro.....just curious as to how Pee Wee Reese stacks up against Dave Concepcion.

[rico]

17 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Point is that you have to have way more range and lateral quickness to play defense on astro turf.

No, you just play deeper as an infielder...

[IUFLA]

11 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

You also have to factor in years played.  So, yes, Blyleven's 22 years is going to skew the number against Koufax, who only played 10 or 11.

Using that perspective, let's compare Larry Walker and Willie McCovey, using 'traditional' stats (keeping in mind that Walker has a higher WAR).

• McCovey had 1,290 MORE at bats during his career than Walker.  So, we can assume that McCovey should hold a significant advantage over Walker in traditional stats.
• McCovey only has 51 more hits (advantage Walker when compared to all teh extra at bats)
• Walker with a batting average that is 43 points higher
• Walker scored 126 more runs (in 1,290 fewer at bats)
• Walker had 204 more stolen bases
• McCovey had 138 more home runs (advantage McCovey, but not as large as it seems due to the disparity in at bats)
• McCovey with 244 more RBIs (not going to do the math, but let's call it a wash considering the difference in at bats)
• Walker with a higher On Base Percentage, Slugging Percentage, and a 76 point advantage in OPS.  
• Both won 1 MVP
• McCovey 6 time all star, Walker a 5 time all star
• Walker won 7 gold gloves.  McCovey won zero.  I looked it up.  Gold Gloves started in '57, so the award was presented during McCovey's entire career.

So, yes.  Both WAR & traditional stats tell me that Walker was the equal or better player than McCovey in everything except home runs.  Attribute some of it to Coors Field, but also keep in mind that McCovey had a longer career.  And, Coors Field can't be used as an excuse when looking at the Stolen Base and Gold Glove numbers.

McCovey is glorified because of the era in which he played.  

•  

Bob Gibson and Reggie Jackson both say McCovey was the scariest hitter they ever saw.

McCovey retired in 1980, and was inducted into the HOF in 1986. Walker retired in 2005, and hasn't sniffed the National Baseball HOF...But he is in the Canadian baseball HOF (with, I'm guessing, Claude Raymond...Joey Votto will be there someday).

And any stat that says Sandy Koufax is the 321st best player in baseball history is a joke.

[rico]

6 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Bob Gibson and Reggie Jackson both say McCovey was the scariest hitter they ever saw.

McCovey retired in 1980, and was inducted into the HOF in 1986. Walker retired in 2005, and hasn't sniffed the National Baseball HOF...But he is in the Canadian baseball HOF (with, I'm guessing, Claude Raymond...Joey Votto will be there someday).

And any stat that says Sandy Koufax is the 321st best player in baseball history is a joke.

I will leave Koufax out of this, but as far as McCovey the magic number to enter the HoF was 500 HRs.

[5fouls]

10 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Bob Gibson and Reggie Jackson both say McCovey was the scariest hitter they ever saw.

McCovey retired in 1980, and was inducted into the HOF in 1986. Walker retired in 2005, and hasn't sniffed the National Baseball HOF...But he is in the Canadian baseball HOF (with, I'm guessing, Claude Raymond...Joey Votto will be there someday).

And any stat that says Sandy Koufax is the 321st best player in baseball history is a joke.

Koufax is the exception to the rule because his career was so short.  Add 5 more peak years (say 9 WAR per season) and 2 or 3 non-peak seasons to get him to 38 years old and his WAR is over 100 and Top 25 all time.

There are always exceptions.  may times, like with Koufax, there is an underlying factor.  But, McCovey vs. Walker is fairly evident.  

 

[5fouls]

45 minutes ago, rico said:

Good stuff bro.....just curious as to how Pee Wee Reese stacks up against Dave Concepcion.

WAR favors Reese by a lot.  traditional stats seem to favor reese as well.

This link let's you compare 2 players.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/compare.cgi?top=/players/t/troutmi01.shtml&bottom=/players/c/cabremi01.shtml

 

[IUFLA]

21 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Koufax is the exception to the rule because his career was so short.  Add 5 more peak years (say 9 WAR per season) and 2 or 3 non-peak seasons to get him to 38 years old and his WAR is over 100 and Top 25 all time.

There are always exceptions.  may times, like with Koufax, there is an underlying factor.  But, McCovey vs. Walker is fairly evident.  

 

Hmmmm...Walker's batting average is 50 points higher in Colorado than it was with his other 2 team (Montreal and St Louis). Averaged 25 HRs per year as a Rockie, 16 per (Montreal) and 13 per (St Louis).

Gee, I wonder what kind of numbers McCovey would have put up in Denver? He may have been the first one to catch Ruth.

 

 

[5fouls]

6 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Hmmmm...Walker's batting average is 50 points higher in Colorado than it was with his other 2 team (Montreal and St Louis). Averaged 25 HRs per year as a Rockie, 16 per (Montreal) and 13 per (St Louis).

Gee, I wonder what kind of numbers McCovey would have put up in Denver? He may have been the first one to catch Ruth.

 

 

Being the end of his career, it's probably not fair to base much on his time in St. Louis.  And, Walker did hit .322 in his last year in Montreal, so it's reasonable to assume that he still would have put excellent numbers had he stayed in Montreal.  McCovey hit over .300 once over the course of a full season.  

And, lest we forget, 200 plus more stolen bases and 7 Gold Gloves versus zero.  Even if you adjust his batting stats for Coors. the evidence says Walker was the better all around player.

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Being the end of his career, it's probably not fair to base much on his time in St. Louis.  And, Walker did hit .322 in his last year in Montreal, so it's reasonable to assume that he still would have put excellent numbers had he stayed in Montreal.  McCovey hit over .300 once over the course of a full season.  

And, lest we forget, 200 plus more stolen bases and 7 Gold Gloves versus zero.  Even if you adjust his batting stats for Coors. the evidence says Walker was the better all around player.

Simple question, then...why isn't he in the HOF?

[5fouls]

2 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Simple question, then...why isn't he in the HOF?

Different era.  Smaller percentage of players make it these days than in the past. And, whether I agree with it or not, there is some Coors Field bias.   In my opinion, he definitely deserves consideration over many that are in.

Great discussion by the way.  I love having debates like this.  

[5fouls]

The WAR number I really have a hard time accepting is Ken Griffey Jr.  56th overall.

[IUFLA]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

You also have to factor in years played.  So, yes, Blyleven's 22 years is going to skew the number against Koufax, who only played 10 or 11.

 

Using that logic, Sandberg played 16 years to Morgan's 22, so 6 more years at Sandberg's average WAR doesn't make it the "far better" than first acclaimed.