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Archie Miller's coaching philosophy...Is this current team smart enough for Archie's standards?


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Virginia Tech has 10 scholarship players

https://247sports.com/college/virginia-tech/Season/2018-Basketball/ScholarshipDistribution/

 

Wisconsin has 11

https://www.buckys5thquarter.com/pages/scholarship-grid

 

As best I can tell, now that Quade Green is gone, Kentucky has 8, though they have a half-dozen former players still listed on their grid.

https://247sports.com/college/kentucky/Season/2018-Basketball/ScholarshipDistribution/

 

Similar to UK, Louisville's list contains players that are gone (Donovan Mitchell and Deng Adell).  In reality, they only have 10

https://247sports.com/college/kentucky/Season/2018-Basketball/ScholarshipDistribution/

 

Ohio State has 12, but only 11 available because of transfer rules.

https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-basketball/scholarship-grid

 

I'll stop now, but after further research what I said was valid.  There are plenty of big time programs getting by just fine without having 12-13 scholarship players.

 

 

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Let's get back to talking philosophy...

I sit back and look at Bob Knight and I marvel.  How he adapted over the years.  NCAAT expansion, 3-point line, and the advent of the shot clock.  He changed with the times.  But what I admired most about him is that he could beat a team at their own game.  For the all the accolades he gets about being completely defensive minded, his teams could/did put up a lot of points.  The General knew his personnel and knew all too well what their strong suits were.  He adjusted accordingly.  He also adjusted to the opponent.  UNLV, if you wanna run we will run with ya.  

The point being is Knight knew is squad.  And he played to whatever squads strengths they had. Archie needs to be like that.  And I would hope and pray that he is.  But Knight was never afraid to step away from his "philosophy".  

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6 hours ago, Artesian_86 said:

Here Mile....read these 2 remaining pages from the earlier article that I forgot to include....Now what do you think?Screenshot_20190116-212523.thumb.png.08282e640ddad3fb1e5db8c292d5802a.png

Screenshot_20190116-213430.thumb.png.08b010414a26eb782e9b95b70060fb29.png

Thank you.  I was having difficulty finding the entire text. SOOOOOOOOOOOOO,  interesting finding a reference to McKinley Wright.  Some of you may recall that I started a thread, a while back, wondering why McKinley was not a Hoosier.  Now, we all know why.   All due to Tom Crean.  Of course he did not figure on getting fired.  But ... still . 

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2 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Oh come on Hoopster. 

No response after I listed a half-dozen more ranked teams?

Alright Fouls. Yes, there are teams who currently have 12 or fewer scholarship players. They are far in the minority, and for obvious reasons.

So under Crean your complaint was he over-recruited, fair, it created scholly crunches. 

Now, in a season when we’ve literally had 5  scholarship players injured or unavailable at the same time you want to reduce our scholarship players. You can’t say oh gee that’s just this year, you never know when concussions and ACL’s etc will come up, and we’ve obviously had a slew of injuries going back years. 

Your approach is to say depth isn’t needed. 

in a season where everyone is thrilled with Rob (who of course has gone through concussion protocol), your approach would not bring him in, because we have Green and adding him would take us over. 

i Could keep going but I need to get to work and my impression is you’re just set on limiting the number of legit players a program brings in. 

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I wanted to spotlight Archie's 4 signees...(Rob Phinisee, Jake Forrester, Damezi Anderson and Jerome Hunter). I just wanted to dissect each brief description of each player and find out what specifically Archie liked and wanted out of each player.  Very interesting and somewhat telling as to why they are playing and not playing......

Miller on Anderson:
"Damezi is an excellent addition to our program.  He is a big wing who has a knack for scoring the basketball.   His ability to shoot the basketball with great range has stood out from the first time I watched him play.  Damezi and his family are very excited that he is the first scholarship basketball player from South Bend that has signed with IU in almost 45 years."

("....I took from this that he is a shooter first and no mention of versatility,...yet. In other words, not ready for prime time yet.)

 

Miller on Forrester:
"Jake is a versatile front court player who has only scratched the surface of his basketball ability.  He has a tremendous work ethic and seems to improve daily.  He comes from a basketball family and is coached by Seth Berger at Westtown School which has produced many high livel college basketball players.  Jake can play multiple positions on offense and guard multiple positions on defense.  His best basketball is ahead of him and the sky is the limit for who he can become as a player."

("....He mentions versatility right off...talent is there,...again, not ready for prime time yet.)

 

Miller on Hunter:
"I have known Jerome and his family since his sophomore year of high school. I have watched him grow as a player and person. He is an extremely versatile wing who has great size for his position. He loves being in the gym and is constantly looking for ways to improve. Jerome's ability to play both on the perimeter and inside will make him a great addition to our team."

("....I felt the Archie had big plans for him, including minutes right away. This plan is not working out so well. Get well soon Jerome!!!!)

 

Miller on Phinisee:
"Rob is a name that came up on my first day on the job. We immediately identified him as a priority and began developing a relationship with him and his family. Rob is a throwback point guard who cares only about running the team and winning. His teammates love playing with him and he makes the game easier for everyone around him. We are proud that Rob is the first scholarship basketball player to play for Indiana from Lafayette in almost 70 years."

("....I feel Archie sees Rob as a carbon copy of himself and he noticed that from day one! He had to have him! So far so good, unfortunately not much help for Rob with the exception of Romeo, Juwan and sometimes Justin and Devonte.)

 

Anyone see anything different?

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10 hours ago, rico said:

Let's get back to talking philosophy...

I sit back and look at Bob Knight and I marvel.  How he adapted over the years.  NCAAT expansion, 3-point line, and the advent of the shot clock.  He changed with the times.  But what I admired most about him is that he could beat a team at their own game.  For the all the accolades he gets about being completely defensive minded, his teams could/did put up a lot of points.  The General knew his personnel and knew all too well what their strong suits were.  He adjusted accordingly.  He also adjusted to the opponent.  UNLV, if you wanna run we will run with ya.  

The point being is Knight knew is squad.  And he played to whatever squads strengths they had. Archie needs to be like that.  And I would hope and pray that he is.  But Knight was never afraid to step away from his "philosophy".  

He was a great one, but man did he fall off in the mid- to late-90s. His motion offense become stale, and he stopped knowing both his recruits and his squads.

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1 minute ago, CauseThatsMyDJ said:

He was the 2.6 GPA that, if he had been asked to transfer, would have resulted in a postseason ban due to our APR score. 

Thanks.   I would say that the 13th guy, or actually 15th since he was behind mcBob and Jaeger, made no difference to last year on court performance.   He was dead weight but he can't really be used as an excuse from an on court perspective.  Especially when the discussion has morphed into maybe we should only have 11 or 12 guys on scholarship.   Sure you could say move on and recruit for the future.  

That leaves us with Rob Johnson, Newkirk, McSwain, Hartman.  I'm pretty sure a new coach doesn't want senior guards to transfer.   I'm also pretty sure CAM talked Hartman into coming back.  I also loved McSwain last year.  Using Priller as an excuse for poor performance falls on deaf ears to me.  Jmo.

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2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Alright Fouls. Yes, there are teams who currently have 12 or fewer scholarship players. They are far in the minority, and for obvious reasons.

So under Crean your complaint was he over-recruited, fair, it created scholly crunches. 

Now, in a season when we’ve literally had 5  scholarship players injured or unavailable at the same time you want to reduce our scholarship players. You can’t say oh gee that’s just this year, you never know when concussions and ACL’s etc will come up, and we’ve obviously had a slew of injuries going back years. 

Your approach is to say depth isn’t needed. 

in a season where everyone is thrilled with Rob (who of course has gone through concussion protocol), your approach would not bring him in, because we have Green and adding him would take us over. 

i Could keep going but I need to get to work and my impression is you’re just set on limiting the number of legit players a program brings in. 

My entire point, which has been twisted here is that Archie's coaching philosophy is not conducive to using 13 schollies

  He's even on record as stating that much when he was first hired.  Assuming the 'goal' is to get through the transition so that it is finally Archie's team, then the information points to IU having open schollies in the future.

What has happened to the roster this year is an anomoly.  I don't see that changing Archie's long term vision.

Edit -  To correct something you said, 13 actually seems to be the minority.  12 is common.  But there does appear to be more teams with less than 12 than there are with 13.

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10 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

My entire point, which has been twisted here is that Archie's coaching philosophy is not conducive to using 13 schollies

  He's even on record as stating that much when he was first hired.  Assuming the 'goal' is to get through the transition so that it is finally Archie's team, then the information points to IU having open schollies in the future.

What has happened to the roster this year is an anomoly.  I don't see that changing Archie's long term vision.

Edit -  To correct something you said, 13 actually seems to be the minority.  12 is common.  But there does appear to be more teams with less than 12 than there are with 13.

To me the perfect scenario when building a team is to have each class be a 3 man class and have a 12 man roster.  The only problem with that is that if you have really good players they won't stay here for 4 years.  If you can have 3 seniors, 3 juniors, 3 sophomores and 3 freshman on your team then you would never have to overhaul your roster in any certain year. 

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1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

To me the perfect scenario when building a team is to have each class be a 3 man class and have a 12 man roster.  The only problem with that is that if you have really good players they won't stay here for 4 years.  If you can have 3 seniors, 3 juniors, 3 sophomores and 3 freshman on your team then you would never have to overhaul your roster in any certain year. 

I agree that balance is critical in building long term stability.  You can lessen the impact of an early entry or a transfer by picking up your own transfer.  

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5 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I agree that balance is critical in building long term stability.  You can lessen the impact of an early entry or a transfer by picking up your own transfer.  

I always like having that extra spot if there is a really good transfer at mid term or a good grad transfer at the end of the year.

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19 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

To me the perfect scenario when building a team is to have each class be a 3 man class and have a 12 man roster.  The only problem with that is that if you have really good players they won't stay here for 4 years.  If you can have 3 seniors, 3 juniors, 3 sophomores and 3 freshman on your team then you would never have to overhaul your roster in any certain year. 

I completely agree with you.  But even the "great" RMK couldn't even achieve a roster like that.  But it is the perfect scenario if guys stayed 4 years.

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21 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I agree that balance is critical in building long term stability.  You can lessen the impact of an early entry or a transfer by picking up your own transfer.  

A class of TJD, Keion and Armaan is perfect balance. My assumption is that we have 1 of those first 2 for two years, 1 of them for 3 years and Armaan for 4 years.

This year's freshman class has/had great balance as well. I think  a kid like Damezi is great, who maybe isn't B1G-ready as a freshman, knowing that Romeo, Jerome and Rob were. The underperformance of about 4 guys on the offensive end is making us look really bad. Some of that is on Archie.

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19 minutes ago, rico said:

I completely agree with you.  But even the "great" RMK couldn't even achieve a roster like that.  But it is the perfect scenario if guys stayed 4 years.

It also gets infinitely more complex when you factor in JUCOs, transfers, and grad transfers. Which is something that a coach cannot ignore (especially the impact of a great grad transfer)

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2 hours ago, NotIThatLives said:

Thanks.   I would say that the 13th guy, or actually 15th since he was behind mcBob and Jaeger, made no difference to last year on court performance.   He was dead weight but he can't really be used as an excuse from an on court perspective.  Especially when the discussion has morphed into maybe we should only have 11 or 12 guys on scholarship.   Sure you could say move on and recruit for the future.  

That leaves us with Rob Johnson, Newkirk, McSwain, Hartman.  I'm pretty sure a new coach doesn't want senior guards to transfer.   I'm also pretty sure CAM talked Hartman into coming back.  I also loved McSwain last year.  Using Priller as an excuse for poor performance falls on deaf ears to me.  Jmo.

You can't say it didn't make a difference unless you know who the replacement would have been with that scholarship. McKinley Wright would have started on last years team and would be starting this year. He wouldn't solve all of IU's problems, as he's not a good shooter from deep, but there's no question IU is a better team last year and this year with him filling that scholarship as opposed to Priller. 

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2 hours ago, 5fouls said:

My entire point, which has been twisted here is that Archie's coaching philosophy is not conducive to using 13 schollies

  He's even on record as stating that much when he was first hired.  Assuming the 'goal' is to get through the transition so that it is finally Archie's team, then the information points to IU having open schollies in the future.

What has happened to the roster this year is an anomoly.  I don't see that changing Archie's long term vision.

Edit -  To correct something you said, 13 actually seems to be the minority.  12 is common.  But there does appear to be more teams with less than 12 than there are with 13.

OK I get your point, and fwiw think it's fair. I wasn't twisting your point though. 

I don't think that what has happened this year is an anomaly. it's almost as if we've been snake bit. Key guys like OG, JBJ, etc. with torn ACL's or other injuries coming into this season, and this season with multiple injuries and medical issues. It goes with the territory.

I haven't dug through all DI programs to see which are CURRENTLY carrying 12 as opposed to 13 schollies --something which varies by year and is sometimes driven by early departures where the coaching staff wasn't prepared for it, but one of the other things going on is that some schools, like UK, recruit for the here and now with assumed departures to the pros. We don't follow that recruiting philosophy. We / CAM follow the model of recruiting one or two one and done types with a mix of players who are expected to stay several seasons and be the backbone of the team. If the idea is to highlight a group of 5-stars several of whom are expected to go pro, your roster is not going to be as deep. CAM may well go with/continue with 12, but I would be surprised if he went below 12, and especially after this season.

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EDIT: I made a mistake with the APR scores in this post that we settled later in the thread.  I still don't think we were going to get a post season ban for a few kids leaving, but we got the correct scores straightened out later in the thread.  Original post is below.

I call BS on the article about APR scores and not telling kids to leave.

In order to be banned for post season play, your 4 year average has to be below 930.  There are also less severe penalties for when teams are performing poor academically.  Our 4 year average which includes Crean's last season and the spring when Archie was hired was 973 (1000, 985, 964, 943).  Our APR would have needed to by 771 in order to be at 930.  The lowest we've ever had was at the end of the Sampson regime at 866.  I looked up a few schools who are banned, and non of them were below 800 for their worst year.  Not a chance we would have been banned for last year, and we probably would have been safe with a bad APR this season too.  Could we have been getting close and maybe had a year or two under 930, sure.  But, the idea that we would have been banned last season is completely false.

Also, Archie did boot a guy that year.  Grant Gelon was told to leave, and then we signed Race Thompson that summer.  We might have said don't boot everybody, but the idea that he couldn't kick anybody off is again, completely false.  The timing might not have worked out to sign Wright, but that article sure seems like it was leaked out by the university or Miller to try to give him an excuse.  Especially with the timing of it.

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5 minutes ago, Leathernecks said:

I call BS on the article about APR scores and not telling kids to leave.

In order to be banned for post season play, your 4 year average has to be below 930.  There are also less severe penalties for when teams are performing poor academically.  Our 4 year average which includes Crean's last season and the spring when Archie was hired was 973 (1000, 985, 964, 943).  Our APR would have needed to by 771 in order to be at 930.  The lowest we've ever had was at the end of the Sampson regime at 866.  I looked up a few schools who are banned, and non of them were below 800 for their worst year.  Not a chance we would have been banned for last year, and we probably would have been safe with a bad APR this season too.  Could we have been getting close and maybe had a year or two under 930, sure.  But, the idea that we would have been banned last season is completely false.

Also, Archie did boot a guy that year.  Grant Gelon was told to leave, and then we signed Race Thompson that summer.  We might have said don't boot everybody, but the idea that he couldn't kick anybody off is again, completely false.  The timing might not have worked out to sign Wright, but that article sure seems like it was leaked out by the university or Miller to try to give him an excuse.  Especially with the timing of it.

Out of curiosity, I went back to look at rosters since our VO/Zeller championship, and here are the players that never finished at IU:

Hanner, Jurkin, Remy Abel, Etherington, Hollowell, Creek, Noah, Troy, Devin Davis, Stan Robinson, James Blackmon, Max Hoetzel, Emmitt Holt, Jeremiah April, OG, Thomas Bryant, Gelon, Curtis Jones

5 Years, 18 scholarships, 18 early departures, 5 of them to the NBA  😳

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