Archie Miller's coaching philosophy...Is this current team smart enough for Archie's standards?

[5fouls]

1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

Did IU make the post season last year? 

The CBI would have taken us in a heartbeat.

[StLHoosier]

@5fouls This is the only thing I could find in terms of GPA and APR.  It looks like they take into account GPA and what institute the kid transfers to, in order to gauge whether they're on track to graduate or not.  If they're not on track, then it gets docked from your APR score.  As far as how much the APR hit is, I'm not sure. 

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2017DIACA_2.6TransferAnalysisPrimer_20170114.pdf

[5fouls]

2 hours ago, StLHoosier said:

@5fouls This is the only thing I could find in terms of GPA and APR.  It looks like they take into account GPA and what institute the kid transfers to, in order to gauge whether they're on track to graduate or not.  If they're not on track, then it gets docked from your APR score.  As far as how much the APR hit is, I'm not sure. 

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2017DIACA_2.6TransferAnalysisPrimer_20170114.pdf

Thanks.  The whole thing is confusing.  That said, it seems as if there is even a minimum of effort, a school can avoid falling below the threshold.  After all, only 6 schools were below in the last report.  

The fact that IU let itself get so close to being in violation less than 10 years after Sampson is pathetic.  Not sure who is to blame, but Fred Glass has to bear some responsibilty, does he not?

[StLHoosier]

9 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Thanks.  The whole thing is confusing.  That said, it seems as if there is even a minimum of effort, a school can avoid falling below the threshold.  After all, only 6 schools were below in the last report.  

The fact that IU let itself get so close to being in violation less than 10 years after Sampson is pathetic.  Not sure who is to blame, but Fred Glass has to bear some responsibilty, does he not?

I would agree, but I think Crean bears a lot of the responsibility.  From what I can tell, transfers and ineligible players have the greatest affect on the school's APR score.  I don't think we had any players that were deemed ineligible due to grades under Crean, so imo it had to be the constant roster turnover we experienced and not the guys who left for the NBA.  It was pretty rampant, hence the term "Creaning" became a constant point of discussion every offseason. 

[rico]

Alright, so I am confused on this whole APR thing.  Didn't UConn get popped for this?

[StLHoosier]

I found this video that shows a little bit about the actions CAM likes to run.  There’s a point in the video where he mentions wanting to get into the action in about 3 seconds, which seems really fast compared to what we have been seeing from our team.  I found some enjoyment from it and thought others might too.

 

 

[milehiiu]

4 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

I found this video that shows a little bit about the actions CAM likes to run.  There’s a point in the video where he mentions wanting to get into the action in about 3 seconds, which seems really fast compared to what we have been seeing from our team.  I found some enjoyment from it and thought others might too.

 

 

Thanks.  Always appreciate contributions like this. 

[NotIThatLives]

Theories and facts.

1.  Injuries has hampered progress and chemistry.  Fact

2. Chemistry has hampered progress.  Theory

3. Attitude has hampered chemistry, therefore progress.  Theory

4. Reigning in turnovers has caused CAM to back of the pace until he feels this team has the chemistry and IQ to handle the full system.  Theory pressing in on fact.  

[BGleas]

I’ll keep posting this, I’m 100% aboard the Archie train. Not a loved opinion, but I’m still eyeing 20-21 as the year that Archie turns IU into a annual threat. This takes time and patience, as it did with Beilein, Wright, Bennett, etc., and I think Archie has the coaching/program building talent those guys do  

With that said, Archie gets paid a lot of money, and it’s time to turn things around for this season. This has been a brutal stretch on the schedule, the injuries have without a doubt negatively impacted this season, and after Langford and Juwan this is a mix-matched roster that lacks shooting and size, and is really inexperienced in the backcourt. Those are all challenging facts that Archie has to deal with. 

But with that said, it’s the hand he’s been dealt and that doesn’t mean you just throw your hands up (not saying that is what Archie is doing). He’s got to adjust and adjust quickly. The coaches and talent in the Big Ten are too good, and the book is out on IU, sag the paint, shade toward or even double Juwan and Langford, and make the ‘others’ make plays. Do that and IU will stagnate, turn the ball over, and generally be bad offensively. 

It’s time for Archie to make some changes on that end, whether it’s scheme, personnel or both. But he’s got to find a way to make guys like Phinisee, Smith, Durham, Green and Fitzner threats on offense. Find ways to put them in positions to be successful and make defenses respect/guard them. He can’t just keep doing the same things on that end, again the coaching talent is too good in this conference and right now IU is easy to defend. 

 

[dgambill]

10 pages so I’ve missed a lot but what value does Cam place on shooting? I mean is it a top 3 attribute in a player?? Is it something he stresses as a team or is the type that wants to get to the hole...athletic slashers etc. Is he willing to sacrifice some athleticism for shooters...because it almost seems this roster is not balanced. Now I know it isn’t all Cams and I know it is banged up missing Race and Hunter but even the guys coming in next year I wouldn’t say there is a lights out shooter. I think we have guys that can make shots but that is different from what we saw Cline and Edwards and Cowan and Poole doing to us over this past couple weeks. To me we do one thing well and as teams take that away...we struggle. I mean we’ve had a couple games like Butler and Marquette where guys have got hot from 3 but this team needs balance imo. So when Cam looks to fill his roster and even the 2020 kids aren’t a deadeye shooter than is that what we expect from now on. Will we ever see another Jay Edwards, Calbert Cheney, Steve Alford, Brian Evans, Eric Gordon or even Jordan Hulls that can shoot lights out from deep...hard to say. Seems like we have a lot of the same.

[Fiveoutofsix]

35 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I’ll keep posting this, I’m 100% aboard the Archie train. Not a loved opinion, but I’m still eyeing 20-21 as the year that Archie turns IU into a annual threat. This takes time and patience, as it did with Beilein, Wright, Bennett, etc., and I think Archie has the coaching/program building talent those guys do  

With that said, Archie gets paid a lot of money, and it’s time to turn things around for this season. This has been a brutal stretch on the schedule, the injuries have without a doubt negatively impacted this season, and after Langford and Juwan this is a mix-matched roster that lacks shooting and size, and is really inexperienced in the backcourt. Those are all challenging facts that Archie has to deal with. 

But with that said, it’s the hand he’s been dealt and that doesn’t mean you just throw your hands up (not saying that is what Archie is doing). He’s got to adjust and adjust quickly. The coaches and talent in the Big Ten are too good, and the book is out on IU, sag the paint, shade toward or even double Juwan and Langford, and make the ‘others’ make plays. Do that and IU will stagnate, turn the ball over, and generally be bad offensively. 

It’s time for Archie to make some changes on that end, whether it’s scheme, personnel or both. But he’s got to find a way to make guys like Phinisee, Smith, Durham, Green and Fitzner threats on offense. Find ways to put them in positions to be successful and make defenses respect/guard them. He can’t just keep doing the same things on that end, again the coaching talent is too good in this conference and right now IU is easy to defend. 

 

I'm not so sure how easy IU is to defend.  They were getting dribble drive penetration and OPEN shots.  You want open shots - reverse purdue got a lot of  contested deep shots that went in.  Both teams were able to get free on the pick and roll and drag screens.  We dont make shots, outside and free throws.   Big problem.

Does Archie put in a continuity, flex, or something more structured?  Maybe, and does that set them back year three and four- maybe.  They have a system and need to recruit to that system.  We do need a lockdown shooter.  Not a Roth who couldnt play D - like Leal an all around basketball player.  

The offense isnt the problem.  They are getting open, going to the line, etc.  A dribble drive motion with 41 or 50 is the way to go in my opinion- it will best utilize the athletes  coming in.  

Typing from my phone, sorry for rambling or mistakes!

[13th&Jackson]

24 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I’ll keep posting this, I’m 100% aboard the Archie train. Not a loved opinion, but I’m still eyeing 20-21 as the year that Archie turns IU into a annual threat. This takes time and patience, as it did with Beilein, Wright, Bennett, etc., and I think Archie has the coaching/program building talent those guys do  

With that said, Archie gets paid a lot of money, and it’s time to turn things around for this season. This has been a brutal stretch on the schedule, the injuries have without a doubt negatively impacted this season, and after Langford and Juwan this is a mix-matched roster that lacks shooting and size, and is really inexperienced in the backcourt. Those are all challenging facts that Archie has to deal with. 

But with that said, it’s the hand he’s been dealt and that doesn’t mean you just throw your hands up (not saying that is what Archie is doing). He’s got to adjust and adjust quickly. The coaches and talent in the Big Ten are too good, and the book is out on IU, sag the paint, shade toward or even double Juwan and Langford, and make the ‘others’ make plays. Do that and IU will stagnate, turn the ball over, and generally be bad offensively. 

It’s time for Archie to make some changes on that end, whether it’s scheme, personnel or both. But he’s got to find a way to make guys like Phinisee, Smith, Durham, Green and Fitzner threats on offense. Find ways to put them in positions to be successful and make defenses respect/guard them. He can’t just keep doing the same things on that end, again the coaching talent is too good in this conference and right now IU is easy to defend. 

 

For all of the fire CAM, he was the wrong hire, etc. crowd, I offer this:

His third year at Dayton, the 2013-14 season, the team started conference play at 1-5. They then went 9-1 the rest of the way to finish tied for 5th in the A-10. They received an at-large bid as an 11th seed. I would note that the A-10 received six bids that year, the same as the Big Ten. They proceeded to defeat Ohio State, Syracuse and Stanford. They lost to 1 seed Florida in the Elite 8, 62-52.

The following season was probably even more impressive:

The Flyers played most of the 2014–15 season with arguably the most limited roster in Division I men's basketball. Before the start of the season, one player was declared academically ineligible, one was lost for the season to a knee injury, and another ended his playing career on medical advice due to post-concussion symptoms. In December, two more players were dismissed from the team after having been charged with theft. This left the Flyers with only six players who began the season on scholarship; in addition, no player on the remaining roster, whether on scholarship or a walk-on, was taller than 6'6" (1.98 m).^[3]

Despite these roster limitations, the Flyers finished 27–9 overall and 13–5 in A-10 play, ending in a tie for second place in the league. They advanced to the championship game of the A-10 Tournament where they lost to VCU. They received an at-large bid to the NCAA Tournament where they defeated Boise State in the First Four and Providence in the Second Round. They lost to #3 seeded Oklahoma in the Third Round.

Don't know if or how CAM turns this season around, but he's clearly capable.

 

[Parakeet Jones]

34 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I’ll keep posting this, I’m 100% aboard the Archie train. Not a loved opinion, but I’m still eyeing 20-21 as the year that Archie turns IU into a annual threat. This takes time and patience, as it did with Beilein, Wright, Bennett, etc., and I think Archie has the coaching/program building talent those guys do  

With that said, Archie gets paid a lot of money, and it’s time to turn things around for this season. This has been a brutal stretch on the schedule, the injuries have without a doubt negatively impacted this season, and after Langford and Juwan this is a mix-matched roster that lacks shooting and size, and is really inexperienced in the backcourt. Those are all challenging facts that Archie has to deal with. 

But with that said, it’s the hand he’s been dealt and that doesn’t mean you just throw your hands up (not saying that is what Archie is doing). He’s got to adjust and adjust quickly. The coaches and talent in the Big Ten are too good, and the book is out on IU, sag the paint, shade toward or even double Juwan and Langford, and make the ‘others’ make plays. Do that and IU will stagnate, turn the ball over, and generally be bad offensively. 

It’s time for Archie to make some changes on that end, whether it’s scheme, personnel or both. But he’s got to find a way to make guys like Phinisee, Smith, Durham, Green and Fitzner threats on offense. Find ways to put them in positions to be successful and make defenses respect/guard them. He can’t just keep doing the same things on that end, again the coaching talent is too good in this conference and right now IU is easy to defend. 

 

Very well stated as always, BGleas. You articulate well what I think many are feeling as demonstrated by the number of likes to your post. 

The sad thing is that you felt like you had to state you were pro Archie before your critique so that people didn’t confuse criticism for giving up on him or wanting him fired.  

I believe it’s possible to be positive about the future with Archie, and still critical of things happening this year.  Thank you for demonstrating that with your post.  

 

 

[BGleas]

13 minutes ago, Fiveoutofsix said:

I'm not so sure how easy IU is to defend.  They were getting dribble drive penetration and OPEN shots.  You want open shots - reverse purdue got a lot of  contested deep shots that went in.  Both teams were able to get free on the pick and roll and drag screens.  We dont make shots, outside and free throws.   Big problem.

Does Archie put in a continuity, flex, or something more structured?  Maybe, and does that set them back year three and four- maybe.  They have a system and need to recruit to that system.  We do need a lockdown shooter.  Not a Roth who couldnt play D - like Leal an all around basketball player.  

The offense isnt the problem.  They are getting open, going to the line, etc.  A dribble drive motion with 41 or 50 is the way to go in my opinion- it will best utilize the athletes  coming in.  

Typing from my phone, sorry for rambling or mistakes!

IU is easy to defend right now. But, just to be clear it didn’t suggest making a wholesale change to the offensive system, im saying Archie needs to adjust and put some of the other players in a better position to be threats. Take Smith and Fitzner for example, and I understand Smith had a good yesterday, but both have struggled mightily, both have some offensive limitations, but both also have an offensive skill that is elite (Smith athleticism and Fitzner shooting). 

Maybe put Smith in a position where he can be a slasher/finisher along the baseline, ala Troy Williams early in his IU career. Let’s put Fitzner in some positions to get spot up 3’s. He’s an elite shooter, but he’s a spot up shooter. When was the last time he had a wide open baseline 3? There are things that can be done to put some guys in better positions to be successful offensively that would open things up for Morgan and Langford. 

To your point though, the other guys have to make shots/plays. Archie can do things to get them in good spots, but if Fitzner isn’t going to hit some of those shots and if Smith isn’t going to finish at the rim, then it doesn’t matter. 

[BGleas]

8 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

For all of the fire CAM, he was the wrong hire, etc. crowd, I offer this:

His third year at Dayton, the 2013-14 season, the team started conference play at 1-5. They then went 9-1 the rest of the way to finish tied for 5th in the A-10. They received an at-large bid as an 11th seed. I would note that the A-10 received six bids that year, the same as the Big Ten. They proceeded to defeat Ohio State, Syracuse and Stanford. They lost to 1 seed Florida in the Elite 8, 62-52.

The following season was probably even more impressive:

The Flyers played most of the 2014–15 season with arguably the most limited roster in Division I men's basketball. Before the start of the season, one player was declared academically ineligible, one was lost for the season to a knee injury, and another ended his playing career on medical advice due to post-concussion symptoms. In December, two more players were dismissed from the team after having been charged with theft. This left the Flyers with only six players who began the season on scholarship; in addition, no player on the remaining roster, whether on scholarship or a walk-on, was taller than 6'6" (1.98 m).^[3]

Despite these roster limitations, the Flyers finished 27–9 overall and 13–5 in A-10 play, ending in a tie for second place in the league. They advanced to the championship game of the A-10 Tournament where they lost to VCU. They received an at-large bid to the NCAA Tournament where they defeated Boise State in the First Four and Providence in the Second Round. They lost to #3 seeded Oklahoma in the Third Round.

Don't know if or how CAM turns this season around, but he's clearly capable.

 

Great post! Just to be clear, I’m not in the ‘wrong hire’ crowd. I’m fully onboard with Archie!

[13th&Jackson]

Just now, BGleas said:

Great post! Just to be clear, I’m not in the ‘wrong hire’ crowd. I’m fully onboard with Archie!

BGleas, that wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular. I like your post and was just attempting to add on to it.

[KoB2011]

One of my biggest takeaways from this thread is that Crean did a complete full circle. I thought that could've been the case, but it really was. He left us in a very marginally better spot than he found us.

That said, I understand what Archie is trying to build and that it takes time. but I have concerns about his adaptability to his roster. IF he can consistently get the right parts, and I understand so far he hasn't had the time to do that, it will likely not be an issue. IF he, like Crean, cannot consistently build the roster in the way he needs, he will have a lot of inconsistency in my opinion. That takes time to see how it will play out. I do think he is trying to build this similar to how Bennet has built UVA. 

[rico]

I have been following Big 10 basketball all my life.  The conference has ballooned to 14 teams.  I really think/believe this year is the toughest I have ever seen from top to bottom.  Keep in mind Penn St. is 0-8.....the same Lion team that beat Va Tech.  

 

[Fiveoutofsix]

10 minutes ago, BGleas said:

IU is easy to defend right now. But, just to be clear it didn’t suggest making a wholesale change to the offensive system, im saying Archie needs to adjust and put some of the other players in a better position to be threats. Take Smith and Fitzner for example, and I understand Smith had a good yesterday, but both have struggled mightily, both have some offensive limitations, but both also have an offensive skill that is elite (Smith athleticism and Fitzner shooting). 

Maybe put Smith in a position where he can be a slasher/finisher along the baseline, ala Troy Williams early in his IU career. Let’s put Fitzner in some positions to get spot up 3’s. He’s an elite shooter, but he’s a spot up shooter. When was the last time he had a wide open baseline 3? There are things that can be done to put some guys in better positions to be successful offensively that would open things up for Morgan and Langford. 

To your point though, the other guys have to make shots/plays. Archie can do things to get them in good spots, but if Fitzner isn’t going to hit some of those shots and if Smith isn’t going to finish at the rim, then it doesn’t matter. 

There are times were I can say the same, and i could say the same about any offense.  I disagree they are easy to defend.  High efficiency offensives do not need to set screens, have consistent movement etc.  Although, IU does do that quite a bit.  Our athletes square up their defender and rip, diibble drive, create passing lanes, etc.  I rewatched the game this morning and we had multiple opportunities to capalize on offense, within the offense.

Smith and Green are horrible at the initiation pass.  We have no shooters.  Man, if McRoberts can hit those open shots, differrent game (and he was before the injury.  Now, someone might say they would guard him if he could.  BINGO, IU wants that as it opens up the block for Morgan to do his work.  

The offense has a little old school motion, with new school motion 5 out, 4 out dribble drive principles.  I for one like it as High Schools are going to do this as well.  

We need grinders and shooters.  

[Fiveoutofsix]

I should of read your whole response before writing:)  Smith would be good at the baseline, I agree.  What they are doing is letting Romeo get lost a little down there before they set a screen or L/v cut him up tonget the ball.  Which one is right?  Not sure.  Romeo is productive moving without the ball and Smith I'm not sure has the instincts of game to do that.  

[NotIThatLives]

Welcome 5o6.  I like what you are saying and seeing.  If McBob or anyone else playing his role, the 5th option, can bang 35-38% of the those open jumpers, game changer,  lanes open even more.  

What I kept seeing is guys catching in rhythm and hesitating?  Alot of us are questioning Why?  Sure we don't want Justin Smith shooting 6 threes a game but sometimes you just have to catch,  rise and shoot.  The offense is producing some good looks.  Al is another one that got good looks.  We desperately need shooters but the execution has been very poor.  Is it confidence, is it a voice in their ear saying, "don't you shoot that."

[FW_Hoosier]

33 minutes ago, dgambill said:

10 pages so I’ve missed a lot but what value does Cam place on shooting? I mean is it a top 3 attribute in a player?? Is it something he stresses as a team or is the type that wants to get to the hole...athletic slashers etc. Is he willing to sacrifice some athleticism for shooters...because it almost seems this roster is not balanced. Now I know it isn’t all Cams and I know it is banged up missing Race and Hunter but even the guys coming in next year I wouldn’t say there is a lights out shooter. I think we have guys that can make shots but that is different from what we saw Cline and Edwards and Cowan and Poole doing to us over this past couple weeks. To me we do one thing well and as teams take that away...we struggle. I mean we’ve had a couple games like Butler and Marquette where guys have got hot from 3 but this team needs balance imo. So when Cam looks to fill his roster and even the 2020 kids aren’t a deadeye shooter than is that what we expect from now on. Will we ever see another Jay Edwards, Calbert Cheney, Steve Alford, Brian Evans, Eric Gordon or even Jordan Hulls that can shoot lights out from deep...hard to say. Seems like we have a lot of the same.

This is what concerns me.  Archie’s teams have only been in the top 100 for total threes attempted three times, and once was his first year at Dayton (25th in 2011, 104th in 2013, 78th in 2014).  Every other year he’s coached, his team has been ranked 193rd or worse in total threes attempted.  

Since he got to IU, he’s clearly coached the team to avoid shooting threes... this seemed especially clear yesterday, watching the players pass up open shot after open shot.  We’ve seen him freak out on the sideline after certain players have put up a three.  Both last year and this year, the players have looked tentative and terrified to shoot... That’s on the coaching.  Our “lack of shooters” this season has been wildly overblown.  We may not have any specialists in the mold of Hulls or Zeisloft, but Durham, Phinisee, Green, Morgan, Fitzner, and Anderson can all shoot the three.  Archie isn’t putting them in position to be successful.

It appears to me that his offensive system is designed to constantly pound the ball in the paint and shoot a really low volume of threes, mostly on kickouts.  We don’t run our shooters off screens to get threes in rhythm.  And he doesn’t seem to be emphasizing three point shooting in recruiting... Anderson is really the only pure shooter he’s recruited thus far, and he refuses to play him.  Recruits can’t be liking what they see when they watch this offense.

[NotIThatLives]

7 minutes ago, Fiveoutofsix said:

I should of read your whole response before writing:)  Smith would be good at the baseline, I agree.  What they are doing is letting Romeo get lost a little down there before they set a screen or L/v cut him up tonget the ball.  Which one is right?  Not sure.  Romeo is productive moving without the ball and Smith I'm not sure has the instincts of game to do that.  

Bingo.  Just like mcbob, these guys need to cut to the basket or cut down the baseline, instead they are making the screen and slipping to the 3 point line.   Rendering them ineffective and non threatening on the wing because that is not their strength, especially not Smith, not yet.    

[Fiveoutofsix]

11 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Welcome 5o6.  I like what you are saying and seeing.  If McBob or anyone else playing his role, the 5th option, can bang 35-38% of the those open jumpers, game changer,  lanes open even more.  

What I kept seeing is guys catching in rhythm and hesitating?  Alot of us are questioning Why?  Sure we don't want Justin Smith shooting 6 threes a game but sometimes you just have to catch,  rise and shoot.  The offense is producing some good looks.  Al is another one that got good looks.  We desperately need shooters but the execution has been very poor.  Is it confidence, is it a voice in their ear saying, "don't you shoot that."

Totally agree.  There was Mike Davis who had reporters quote him saying shoot it or sit.  Then again he had, hornsby, cov, fife, odle all shooters.  Jefferies wasnt a pure shooter, but he was like Morgan where there was a good chance of the rock going through the bucket.

I think, all out of observation, this coaching staff is hesitant with the 3 because of the the transition points that could come off of that.  This is where teams are eating us alive, transition points after long rebounds.  Then again, what is there to loose?  Interesting to hear others opinion on this?  Whats right or wrong?  Michigan will shoot the rock, they also release their guards to avoid transition points.  We dont have the range they do.

[Artesian_86]

......After starting this post and now, 10 pages of meaningful opinions and discussions, it is obvious that there are several pieces missing on this team. There is definitey a void of parts to adequately accommodate "Miller's Machine". I say this, because every coach has blue print of what his/her team is SUPPOSED to look like and perform. 

I have tried to dig deep into his own personal college playing days, former and present college coaching philosophies including past players. I keep reading the same things over and over. He was and is a very intelligent, aggressive and detail oriented player/coach. The reason we hired Archie was of his merits on and off the court. Before Archie finally accepted the position at IU, Dayton threw everything at coach Miller to entice him to stay. I believe they were within 200k of matching IU's winning bid. He had his player and even better ones coming in. "Miller's Machine" was close to being built at Dayton.....THAT, among other things is why IU had to have Archie.